Can a Ford modular DOHC engined vehicle run Top Doorslammer times?

prasac · 04-05-2011, 11:17 AM

you bet it can, Accufab owner and racer John Mihovetz ran a 6.19@235mph (380km/h) on the weekend in Las Vegas with a Ford Modular engine. John uses the 4.6L (full alloy available only in US Mustangs 1996-2009) yes 4.6L 32-valve quad cam. 281ci with twin 80mm turbo's making 2500hp on 50psi of boost. what makes it more impressive is John uses the factory block and heads. runs an aftermarket crank now but John has went 6.25@230 using the factory crank. also uses the factory followers and lifters in the heads.

what a brilliant motor Ford has provided as a basis to start on not just a drag combo, but also on the street. here is a video of the pass and interview with John afterwards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86uLwXstuWQ

**Polyal** · 04-05-2011, 11:23 AM

100% factory block and head? Damn

prasac · 04-05-2011, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

100% factory block and head? Damn

nothing is a 100% factory. heads are ported and aftermarket valves. a bit of work has been done to the 4.6 alloy block but it's nothing crazy. MMR are pumping out about 2000hp with the factory 5.4 blocks with no mods, just throw in rods, pistons and race bearings and away she goes.

mickyyyy · 04-05-2011, 04:58 PM

Man these engines are crazy!!!

1970galaxie · 05-05-2011, 12:27 PM

Those times are amazing for such a small engine.

But I wonder what would happen if Doorslammers used turbo's?

prasac · 05-05-2011, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1970galaxie

Those times are amazing for such a small engine.

But I wonder what would happen if Doorslammers used turbo's?

American Pro Mod (Top Doorslammers) already do, they are matching the times of the blown slammers, but they run 3-5mph more.

here's a video of Brad Personett's turbo slammer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWd0ED2FWFo

Gonzo1971 · 30-05-2011, 02:41 PM

Isn't the Acufab car the old Aeromotive car? If it is then there is a write up in Muscle Mustang magazine. I think it's a Duttweiler engine and there is nothing stock about the block and the heads apart from the castings. The heads are fully developed and the original block has 8 custom made Darton sleves. That is if its the same engine that is still in it, I met the new owner last year at Fontana, he was racing in the Pacific Street Car Association (PSCA) and went 6.40's, its a killer car but there wouldn't be a nut or bolt legal on it for Top Doorslammer:

Post 1969 bodies in Australia T/D must remain standard and cars newer than 25 years must be Australian produced (built here).
Turbocharging is not allowed in T/D.
Minimum weight is either 2700lb for screw blowers or 2550lb for roots blower cars. The mustang runs at about 2400 to 2500lb depending on turbo size.
EFI is not allowed in T/D.

As far as the engine goes (a modular Ford engine), it is legal but I don't know if you could make 3000Hp with a blown Mod Motor. You could always try!

Gonz

prasac · 30-05-2011, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo1971

Isn't the Acufab car the old Aeromotive car? If it is then there is a write up in Muscle Mustang magazine. I think it's a Duttweiler engine and there is nothing stock about the block and the heads apart from the castings. The heads are fully developed and the original block has 8 custom made Darton sleves. That is if its the same engine that is still in it, I met the new owner last year at Fontana, he was racing in the Pacific Street Car Association (PSCA) and went 6.40's, its a killer car but there wouldn't be a nut or bolt legal on it for Top Doorslammer:

Post 1969 bodies in Australia T/D must remain standard and cars newer than 25 years must be Australian produced (built here).
Turbocharging is not allowed in T/D.
Minimum weight is either 2700lb for screw blowers or 2550lb for roots blower cars. The mustang runs at about 2400 to 2500lb depending on turbo size.
EFI is not allowed in T/D.

As far as the engine goes (a modular Ford engine), it is legal but I don't know if you could make 3000Hp with a blown Mod Motor. You could always try!

Gonz

hey Gonz, yes, it's the old Aeromotive car (with a fair few changes) the motor is different. Steve used a 5.4 Darton sleeved block de-stroked to 5L. John (Accufab) uses a 4.6L block with a custom crank. he has gone 6.23@230 with the factory crank. ported GT heads, billet Manley rods and JE pistons. car weighs 2500lbs. the quote was more about the times it runs compared to a Top Doorslammer with a motor that is 240ci (4L) smaller than a Top Doorslammer and using the Ford casted block and heads, not aftermarket block/heads etc. if it was to race in the US i believe it would be Pro Mod legal apart from maybe the weight, though running 240ci and turbo's 14mm less than everyone else might get him a weight break

you would be hard pressed finding any other engine apart from the 2JZ and Ford Modular making over 2000hp with factory cast heads (ported), block (may be grout filled) and crank. that is a pretty fantastic effort using factory castings from Ford and Toyota.

Gonzo1971 · 30-05-2011, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prasac

hey Gonz, yes, it's the old Aeromotive car (with a fair few changes) the motor is different. Steve used a 5.4 Darton sleeved block de-stroked to 5L. John (Accufab) uses a 4.6L block with a custom crank. he has gone 6.23@230 with the factory crank. ported GT heads, billet Manley rods and JE pistons. car weighs 2500lbs. the quote was more about the times it runs compared to a Top Doorslammer with a motor that is 240ci (4L) smaller than a Top Doorslammer and using the Ford casted block and heads, not aftermarket block/heads etc. if it was to race in the US i believe it would be Pro Mod legal apart from maybe the weight, though running 240ci and turbo's 14mm less than everyone else might get him a weight break

you would be hard pressed finding any other engine apart from the 2JZ and Ford Modular making over 2000hp with factory cast heads (ported), block (may be grout filled) and crank. that is a pretty fantastic effort using factory castings from Ford and Toyota.

The perfect class for the Mod Motor is BB/API, a 4.6L would have to weight 2386lb. The problem is the 40lb boost limit, the guys making the big Hp are up over 40lb. The quickest BB/API car has gone 6.91 with 4L Toyota 1UZE with standard heads standard block and standard crank, the car is way over weight and I think they are going to a bigger motor (maybe a 3UZE?) to get the car on weight. I looked at buying one of Bennett's Mod Motors to run in our BA a while back but the reality is that it is cheaper to build and maintain a Hemi. We went 6.59 first lap without buying a tune just by guessing how much fuel we needed and we are 200lb over weight for T/D, wrong diff ratio, lazy tune and about 1500rpm under what we should be turning it too with a home grown torque converter. I wanted (and still do) to build a Ford Hemi for the car but its just way more expensive than running a Hemi, the (Hemi) parts are on the shelf, relatively trouble free and cheap. I'll put it too you this way it cost me less to build my hemi than it would have to build a wedge style big block Ford let alone a Hemi Ford. The other thing is that once you get into the 50lb plus boost area and start leaning on the engine to make 3000+Hp the valve seats start to move and the comustion chamber starts to colapse even with cast solid heads. Billet heads are the go and the serious Turbo (Ford and Chevy) small block guys run the CFE billet SBX heads to get around the problem. But in saying all of that I still beieve that a 4.6L in BB/API would work really well and I hope that once your Mod Motor / Chrysler hits the track that you'll have a crack at it.

Gonz

prasac · 30-05-2011, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo1971

The perfect class for the Mod Motor is BB/API, a 4.6L would have to weight 2386lb. The problem is the 40lb boost limit, the guys making the big Hp are up over 40lb. The quickest BB/API car has gone 6.91 with 4L Toyota 1UZE with standard heads standard block and standard crank, the car is way over weight and I think they are going to a bigger motor (maybe a 3UZE?) to get the car on weight. I looked at buying one of Bennett's Mod Motors to run in our BA a while back but the reality is that it is cheaper to build and maintain a Hemi. We went 6.59 first lap without buying a tune just by guessing how much fuel we needed and we are 200lb over weight for T/D, wrong diff ratio, lazy tune and about 1500rpm under what we should be turning it too with a home grown torque converter. I wanted (and still do) to build a Ford Hemi for the car but its just way more expensive than running a Hemi, the (Hemi) parts are on the shelf, relatively trouble free and cheap. I'll put it too you this way it cost me less to build my hemi than it would have to build a wedge style big block Ford let alone a Hemi Ford. The other thing is that once you get into the 50lb plus boost area and start leaning on the engine to make 3000+Hp the valve seats start to move and the comustion chamber starts to colapse even with cast solid heads. Billet heads are the go and the serious Turbo (Ford and Chevy) small block guys run the CFE billet SBX heads to get around the problem. But in saying all of that I still beieve that a 4.6L in BB/API would work really well and I hope that once your Mod Motor / Chrysler hits the track that you'll have a crack at it.

Gonz

Gonz, kool now i know who u r

the BA Baracus is an absolute beast mate

i saw a couple of the vids u posted on youtube a little while back.

it can get costly, i'd hate to pay your bills

even though i used a $1000 factory engine it still adds up, but once u start talking custom parts the price goes crazy. for instance Manley rods off the shelf $1200, custom Carillo rods $2700. fortunately there is alot of stuff available for the modulars and i used alot of factory gear.

i'm familiar with the Lexus 1UZ engines, we have one in a Capri (street car) running low 8's. the Gullotto's Soarer is a weapon, it's one of the cars that made me want to build what i am. im a big fan of the small cube DOHC 8's. i am actually thinking about running BB/API when i race ANDRA events, Ash Hamblin (who is also now putting a 4L Lexus in his altered) has been talking me into it. i think he was saying around 2400lbs like u said. my car should come in at about 2500lbs so would be perfect. if i can run a similar time to what the Gullotto's are i would be one happy boy. 40psi with a 4.6 would see close to 1800hp+, in a 2400lb car you'd be looking at a mid-6@210 on a perfect pass.

oh n if ur ever selling the BA shell let me know if i have the money i will buy it

i have been looking for a BA,BF,FG shell. i can't find anyone who does one. i have only seen urs n Errol Quartermaine that have one.

**ebxr8240** · 30-05-2011, 07:56 PM

Does it really matter what power it makes ??
As long as it does the times..
The Hemi has a fair few years behind it..
Aftermarket block and helped with rules too...

Gonzo1971 · 31-05-2011, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Does it really matter what power it makes ??
As long as it does the times..
The Hemi has a fair few years behind it..
Aftermarket block and helped with rules too...

Unfortunately in group one or two drag racing it does matter (what power it makes) because the cars are built to a weight, usually a minimum weight and or a lb/ci. To run 6.0 you need an average of 1Hp per 1lb of weight.

Back in 1994 we (Martin Stamatis driving) ran 6.0 in a rail in CC/Dragster at 343ci. ANDRA changed the rules so we couldn't run the car in that class anymore, at the time we had gone quicker than anyone in AA/D or BB/D or T/A which are all classes that are meant to be a lot quicker than CC/D. I'm the first guy that would love to see the rules opened up so that smaller engines could run competativley but it ain't going to happen. NHRA Pro Mod allows Turbo EFI, Blown or Nitrous combos. ANDRA T/D only allows Blown mechanical injection.

The Mod Motor has a lot of potential there is no doubt about it I mean look at the Super Snakes running in the 8's practically out of the box, the AcuFab car and many others. It is an awesome motor.

Gonz

Hey prasac did you get my PM?

prasac · 31-05-2011, 03:39 PM

no PM received Gonz. i have sent you one, let me know if u get it.

with a limit of 40psi, a stroked 4.6 gets u to 4.9L even 2530lbs wouldn't be too bad. anything over just get's a little ridiculous as the 4V Quad Cam EFI cars get slogged around 8.5lbs per cube.

like u said a small cube UZ or modular are perfect. we make around 1200hp @ engine now with the 1UZ with 62mm turbo's @ 29psi. a pair of 67's with 40psi would have to pump out close to 1500hp. your minimum weight would only have to be 2040lbs. you'd probably never get that light, not sure what the Gullotto's weigh. i'd have to say close to 2300lbs.

the heads on the mod motors are an extremely efficient factory head. love to see the Gullotto's throw something like that in the Soarer. shouldn't go giving them ideas

it'd be great to see a couple of 6-second modulars in Australia. Australia has alot of quick small cube cars rotaries, 2JZ's etc. boost is now the replacement for cubes

Gonzo1971 · 31-05-2011, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prasac

no PM received Gonz. i have sent you one, let me know if u get it.

with a limit of 40psi, a stroked 4.6 gets u to 4.9L even 2530lbs wouldn't be too bad. anything over just get's a little ridiculous as the 4V Quad Cam EFI cars get slogged around 8.5lbs per cube.

like u said a small cube UZ or modular are perfect. we make around 1200hp @ engine now with the 1UZ with 62mm turbo's @ 29psi. a pair of 67's with 40psi would have to pump out close to 1500hp. your minimum weight would only have to be 2040lbs. you'd probably never get that light, not sure what the Gullotto's weigh. i'd have to say close to 2300lbs.

the heads on the mod motors are an extremely efficient factory head. love to see the Gullotto's throw something like that in the Soarer. shouldn't go giving them ideas

it'd be great to see a couple of 6-second modulars in Australia. Australia has alot of quick small cube cars rotaries, 2JZ's etc. boost is now the replacement for cubes

Don't worry they won't switch to anything other than Toyota and I don't think you can run a six in BB/API. I sent you a PM but I just realised I haven't been a member long enough to send PM's! How close is your car it must be nearly there?

Gonz

prasac · 31-05-2011, 06:17 PM

they like those Toyota's

they have proven to be a fantastic engine. i wouldn't mind picking their brain for our own 1UZ, we are starting to move into a territory where not many people have went with a 1UZ you start to worry.

mine is not far at all, just all the silly little jobs left like changing all the bolts on the lexan, doing the door gaps etc.

the BA is steel bodied? damn that is even more impressive. here i was thinking it was CF or fibreglass.

Gonzo1971 · 31-05-2011, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prasac

they like those Toyota's

they have proven to be a fantastic engine. i wouldn't mind picking their brain for our own 1UZ, we are starting to move into a territory where not many people have went with a 1UZ you start to worry.

mine is not far at all, just all the silly little jobs left like changing all the bolts on the lexan, doing the door gaps etc.

the BA is steel bodied? damn that is even more impressive. here i was thinking it was CF or fibreglass.

I know what you mean about all the little jobs, changing those screws is a pain! I used some button heads stainless steel bolts with nylocs, but its all worth it.

Any questions about the 1UZE, feel free to drop me a line I should be able to PM soon.

Yes the car is all steel except for the fenders and bonnet which are fiberglas, it has real working tail lights, head lights, steel doors, real working door handles, on board starter motor and on board batteries, we tow it up, squirt some fuel in the hat and hit the starter button. It also has an on board primer for the fuel but the crew won't let me use because they say it looks stupid with them standing around doing nothing! My favorite is the horn, don't you hate it when your strapped in the car and the crew ignores you? Not anymore !! Its got a modified Lenco drive with one of our bolt together aluminium converters (look ma no clutch).

Its about 200lb overweight, I can loose the starter and the batteries, do a carbon front and trim a little steel off the body but It all costs money and I lost all my sponsors while ANDRA ran me around in circles for 10 years over the back wing, they wouldn't issue a log book! The new tech guy sorted it out in Feb this year and we hit the track at the next meeting 6.59 off the trailer as a SS/AA doing a before the startline burnout, after 10 years I was happy!

I havent seen 9000 yet, 10,500 is where we need to be, they pick up nearly 10lb of boost in the last 1500rpm!

Gonz

**ebxr8240** · 31-05-2011, 08:41 PM

Hmm ?? See how good my P/G 4000 converter works...
On my 1UZ turbo Celica..
No guessing...

prasac · 01-06-2011, 08:19 AM

Gonz, have heard alot of problems with tech problems over the last few years. it sucks to have built a car and denied racing because of something small. the BA Baracus would make an excellent Outlaw 10.5 car like Frank Mamone's. if the APSA ever has an event out at the Plex be good to see it out there.

i have noticed a couple Aussie companies making bolt togethers now u guys and Slingshot. how are your turbo converters going? i know in the past Aussie converters not being able to get the R&D like the yanks they were lagging behind a little bit

we had an Aussie one in the Capri, was taking about 7-8 seconds to come up on boost, we put in a Chance it now takes about 2 seconds.

Gonzo1971 · 01-06-2011, 09:01 PM

We do a lot of Turbo converters, the spool time has a lot to do with a lot of different things but generally you should be able to get full boost from the first amber to the last amber, so about 1.2 seconds.

We have a few little tricks that make it happen but you really have to find a balance between spool time and lockup % if you get everything right you can get them to hit full (or launch) boost within a couple of seconds and only have 3 to 4% slip through the top.

There are 6 factors that are out of (our) the torque converter manufacturers control:

1. R/A ratio on the turbine housing
2. Turbo size in particular turbine wheel size
3. Compression ratio
4. Cam size and timing
5. The tune
6. Size of the engine

Factory style 1UZE's have a fair bit of comp (I think about 10:1) and if the turbo size isn't stupid BIG they spool up good and fast. As the comp gets lower and the cam gets bigger and the turbo gets bigger, the engines ability to make low down torque is diminished. A torque converters stall speed is dependant on the torque that the engine makes, till the engine makes boost the torque will be low and the stall will hold the engine at a lower RPM.

Engine timing is another factor (and overall Tune), I've seen cars that you can hold wide open (throttle) and they will stall the converter at 1600 to 2000 RPM and do nothing, add 2 degrees of timing and they come straight up on full boost. We are lucky in the fact that we build our own test cars to test this kind of stuff so we learn what works and what doesn't without someone else paying for it.

The NCRC stuff is well built and strong, the billet aluminium pump that both they and Coan and couple of other guys sell are real nice.

Gonz

prasac · 02-06-2011, 07:59 AM

tune played a big part in ours not getting up on boost. then Rigoli had a go and it was MUCH better. 8.5:1 comp on the 1UZ, the new engine we build for it will have 10:1, we are thinking of putting bigger turbo's (67mm) on it. it does good spooling 2 x 62mm see how it goes when we step them up. my lil 4.6 has 2 x 75mm turbo's be interesting to see it spool 'em up with only 9.5:1 CR, i have 11.5:1 CR pistons but went with the street pistons first see how we go everything might fall into place.

good to see people on the job for the turbo guys alot of people just tend to concerntrate on the NA & Blown converters, alot of turbo cars coming out now.

prasac · 10-10-2011, 12:10 PM

well done to John Mihovetz and the Accufab/Lucas Oil team, the Mustang this weekend PB'd twice and was running consistent 6's all weekend. ran a 6.16@235 and a 6.14@236.34mph bests. 281ci 4.6L 4V modular with twin 80mm turbo's.

incrementals for 6.16 run
R/T .163
60' 0.993
330' 2.727
1/8 4.075
MPH 184.980
1000' 5.212
1/4 6.167
MPH 235.56

and 6.14 run
R/T .241
60' 1.021
330' 2.722
1/8 4.058
MPH 185.820
1000' 5.189
1/4 6.141
MPH 236.34

prasac · 10-10-2011, 12:30 PM

i thought it would be an interesting comparison to see just how much difference a turbo big cube engine makes in the deep end compared to a small cube turbo motor. here are Campo's increments from his 260mph pass
60 - 1.038
330 - 2.750
660' - 4.039 @ 197.48
1000' - 5.088
1320' - 5.958 @ 260.31
both Campo and Mihovetz push similar boost around 50psi and weigh the same, notice the front half off the track very similar numbers. the small cube motor is actually quicker to 330' by 3/100ths, a little after that is when Campo can really put the power down, he is 2/100ths and 14mph quicker at half track. after that it's all she wrote, a difference of 2/10ths and a huge 24mph at the end, at this point Mihovetz is pushing out 2500hp and Campo is up around 3000hp+.

prasac · 11-10-2011, 05:23 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIDQtZ7fshA the 6.16 pass is at 1:10, the thing is like a bullet out the hole. shame he broke thru the beams and redlit, he would have given the Corvette a good run.

prasac · 11-11-2011, 12:56 PM

new PB, Mihovetz ran a 6.083@236.84mph this morning and backed it up with a 6.140@236.55 how consistent is that for a little 281ci twin turbo engine.

prasac · 15-11-2011, 08:01 AM

video of the 6.08 pass is up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNPNxbEQX8Y got a bit smokey from 1/2 track on but there was no damage. John even went back to the office to do some work between rounds, the track is very close to Accufab