Networking computers

MotherNatureVer2 · 04-05-2006, 02:52 PM

I have been a bit lucky of late & have managed to get hold of a few older computers for the kids. These things are only little old boxes that are running anything from Win 3.1 to Win98.

The kids want me to network their computers to this one so they can have net access as well as the programs that are on here to save their limited disc space ......

SOoooooooooooooo the questions are :

1. Do I need at least Win 98 on all of the computers (this one has XP on it) ?

2. Is it possible to run up to 6 other computers from this one when networked ?

3. Will the kids all be able to use the net at the same time? We now have ADSL here in the scrub

Cheers

parawolf · 04-05-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotherNature

I have been a bit lucky of late & have managed to get hold of a few older computers for the kids. These things are only little old boxes that are running anything from Win 3.1 to Win98.

The kids want me to network their computers to this one so they can have net access as well as the programs that are on here to save their limited disc space ......

SOoooooooooooooo the questions are :

1. Do I need at least Win 98 on all of the computers (this one has XP on it) ?

2. Is it possible to run up to 6 other computers from this one when networked ?

3. Will the kids all be able to use the net at the same time? We now have ADSL here in the scrub

Cheers

1) Yes, however it would be possible to run Windows 3.1 but you need an aftermarket TCP/IP stack compatible with DOS (unlikely to get easily).
2) Yes, you will need a network switch/hub. Likely cost about $80.
3) Yes, get an ADSL router with an 8 port switch built in, or cascade the 8 port switch off the ADSL router and set all the client computers to automatically obtain an IP address.

ON_DUBS · 04-05-2006, 03:11 PM

don't forget each computer needs it own network card also.
so hopefully they all have a free pci slot.

i wouldn't use anything less than windows 2000 now, the win9x is incredibly outdated and doesn't contain many of the things XP provides as standard which you would be used to. however you are limited to what the hardware allows. do some research and get the latest O.S your computers will support.

if you got a few old machines it might be worth sacrificing a couple to upgrade the others, e.g. pillage the RAM

DivHunter · 04-05-2006, 03:12 PM

Buy an ADSL modem that has 4 ethernet ports. This will act as your internet connection, switch and DHCP server (gives the computers IP address info so they can talk to each other). Put at least 98 on them XP if you can but it will probably run like a dog by the sound of it.

You can't run Terminal Services from the computer you are on (running other computers off that one) and splitting to 6 would make it pretty slow, depenind on the systems specs, anyway. Probably best off canabalising the best bits into 2 or 3 machines and going from there. Make sure all the systems have network cards first too, they are pretty cheap though so not too much of a problem as long as you can get Win 98 drivers for them.

ronwest · 04-05-2006, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotherNature

1. Do I need at least Win 98 on all of the computers (this one has XP on it)

Use XP on them all (if they have the grunt to run it - otherwise consider linux for surfing the net)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotherNature

2. Is it possible to run up to 6 other computers from this one when networked ?

Best way is to invest in a router (approx $70) and an 8 port switch (approx $30)
(So:- inet ->modem->router->switch->clients 1-6

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotherNature

3. Will the kids all be able to use the net at the same time? We now have ADSL here in the scrub

Yes, but you may wish to consider some sort of bandwidth limiting per client.

MotherNatureVer2 · 04-05-2006, 03:20 PM

Coolies guys.

I actually got about 20 old boxes and about a dozen monitors for a very good price .... was a pallet load that a local got from an auction but is going out of making games computers now .......

The youngest has basically turned his bedroom into a war zone that has computer bits everywhere trying to get 6 almost decent (well decent for the age of them) computers going.

I know I will have to try to get some more HHD's as the biggest one we have found so far is a whopping 2112mb :S Others have been raided for their ram & other bits to get at least something we can get 98 working on ......... I know 98 is outdated but I know it and seem to have less problems on that than I do on this XP stuff .........

Will try to get a router thinggy when Im in town on Monday and of cause a crap load of ethernet type cord ....... that is what I need isnt it ???? hehheehe

MotherNatureVer2 · 04-05-2006, 03:22 PM

Ohhhhh we now have unlimited broadband too ....... the kids managed to use all 500mb limit in under 2 weeks when we first switched over :(

EA2BA · 04-05-2006, 03:22 PM

I suggest go wireless if the finances can allow it, no cables is so much neater.

Other option is, get a hub, only your computer to the internet on a shared connection, and the rest surf via proxy to your computer and onto the internet.

XA-Coupe · 04-05-2006, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotherNature

I have been a bit lucky of late & have managed to get hold of a few older computers for the kids. These things are only little old boxes that are running anything from Win 3.1 to Win98.

The kids want me to network their computers to this one so they can have net access as well as the programs that are on here to save their limited disc space ......

SOoooooooooooooo the questions are :

1. Do I need at least Win 98 on all of the computers (this one has XP on it) ?

2. Is it possible to run up to 6 other computers from this one when networked ?

3. Will the kids all be able to use the net at the same time? We now have ADSL here in the scrub

Cheers

Ugh.. I guess every version of windows will network but to make it easy you do want W98 at least. Even W95 is a bit dodgey ( ie: I hate doing it )

You can run as many as you like within reason. You will need a switch with at least ..well, 6 ports on it to be able to connect them

Once the networking works, then there is no reason why they can't.

It's not going to be easy to get older machines to network but it's not impossible by any stretch. If you use Internet Connection Sharing on the XP machine you can save a lot of grief as it can be set up by wizards and such.
Alternatively, your ADSL modem may have a switch in it already and that'll make things even easier.

Last thing.. you will be hampered by where you can put wires to run from the computers to the switch. Wireless in an option but the costs start to add up and I really doubt you'll find drivers for W3.1.

ronwest · 04-05-2006, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotherNature

I actually got about 20 old boxes and about a dozen monitors for a very good price ....

ok, consider using one of the old boxes, as is (it will need two nics), as an Ipcop firewall/router. It probably sounds a bit daunting but it really is quite simple.That will save you the cost of buying a router.

edit: actually if you use wired and wireless it will req 3 nics...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotherNature

Will try to get a router thinggy when Im in town on Monday and of cause a crap load of ethernet type cord ....... that is what I need isnt it ???? hehheehe

With the money you've saved by using IPcop, you may wish to partly pay for a wirelsss router (which can be used off a dedicated Ipcop interface) for at least a couple of the more difficult to reach clients.

Bucket · 04-05-2006, 04:43 PM

Also, if you can- go into the Routers configuration interface and turn on Parent Guard or something. Quite a few routers are coming with Website blocking functions these days.

MotherNatureVer2 · 04-05-2006, 11:20 PM

Thanks heaps guys.

ronwest, is it at all possible for you to send me a PM explaining in reasonably easy english how to use one of the boxes ..... I have a fairly decent understanding of the insides of a box but have never done any networking before so its all a bit new to me

jonk · 05-05-2006, 12:46 AM

MN, those old PC's aren't worth the it, seriously. Their age makes them very unreliable to network... for your type of expertise; and the age of the motherboards inside the boxes that will be so 'TIRED' that if they manage to get more than 20 MB/sec transfer speeds through the older PC's in particlular; I'll eat my hat & probably yours too.

Older PC's won't take modern add-in cards sometimes so it's a gamble and a waste of time to find out - due to the ancient/archaic standards they were designed to. The transfer/network speeds will be so slack they'll probable hang/stall. It ain't worth the expense unless you 'need' to know/learn about PC's.

Do this, rip the guts out of a couple of PC's, replace the mobo/RAM/CPU with brand new/modern/up to date ATX stuff for around $300 each box... that means keep the box & power supply, upgrade the rest.

05-05-2006, 01:17 AM

don't forget that anything < Windows 2000 professional = FAT32 file system, so anything > windows 2000 will not 'talk' to the NTFS files systems found on the newer machines with XP, etc.

ronwest · 05-05-2006, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonk

MN, those old PC's aren't worth the it, seriously. Their age makes them very unreliable to network... for your type of expertise; and the age of the motherboards inside the boxes that will be so 'TIRED' that if they manage to get more than 20 MB/sec transfer speeds through the older PC's in particlular; I'll eat my hat & probably yours too.

Will you have sauce with those hats?

There is a huge amount of info on the net regarding the use of outdated gear. If it will run W98 it will be fine for what the OP stated it's use would be.

In a lot of cases a box with a p100 or whacko even a huge upgrade to a p233 with 32MB or *gasp* a whopping great 64MB of ram will be plenty good enough for the f/r.

I've used linux firewall/routers for years with no reliability issues. I'm sorry if in your experience it has proven to be unreliable. Which particular distros did you have the major problems with?

My current f/r is an p3 800 with 128MB pc100 sdram, 4.3GB hdd, onboard vid/sound. Once setup I disconnect monitor, keyboard and mouse and manage it through a client. Currently I'm using ClarkConnect for the simple reason it has a very good bandwidth by ip limiter. Funnily enough, not a single reliability issue.

Previously I used an Abit BH6 and cel300 which I've had since around 1997 and absolutely flogged whilst learning to overclock. Strangely enough with Ipcop on it for around 5 years there were zero reliabilty issues. I still use it as a Linux test box.

You may wish to post your experiences with unreliable older gear in the Ipcop or Smoothwall forums. Those guys are always interested in other peoples experiences.

the_scotsman · 05-05-2006, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F6 Turbo

don't forget that anything < Windows 2000 professional = FAT32 file system, so anything > windows 2000 will not 'talk' to the NTFS files systems found on the newer machines with XP, etc.

Actually, over networks, it doesnt matter what file systems are used, NTFS / FAT32 will see each other no problems over a network.

DivHunter · 05-05-2006, 12:42 PM

People get some funny ideas about computers

ronwest is it really worth setting up a router box when in all likelyhood the current ADSL modem is also a router with a Ethernet port and if not then there is the question of linux support for it (should be)?

Seems like overkill to me.

Perana · 05-05-2006, 01:21 PM

ID try and run at least win98 on them.. anything less is really quite useless for networking.

Do you know any specs of these computers lisa?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

People get some funny ideas about computers

ronwest is it really worth setting up a router box when in all likelyhood the current ADSL modem is also a router with a Ethernet port and if not then there is the question of linux support for it (should be)?

Seems like overkill to me.

Agreed.. for a normal internet user theres really no need.

Also ipcop boxes arent the most simple things to setup unless you know a bit about networking and understand what your doing.

MotherNatureVer2 · 05-05-2006, 01:47 PM

I know my ADSL modem has an ethernet plug thinggy as the youngest has been playing Xbox Live using it. We have to use the USB at this stage for the modem as I need to replace the network card on our computer as its kapoot .......... I know it will be replaced ......

Ben, the computers are mainly Pentium (ones I think) but they all only have small HDD's, hence the want to do this exercise in the first place. Some do have network cards & should I need to get a few more I will ....... Im also willing to get a few things but this cant become to expensive an exercise as we all need to eat as well ........(Brady Bunch ROKS :P ) .... We have managed to get Win98 on the 2 we have already done & they are going quiet well so far

Basically the kids only really want to be able to type up homework & get onto MSN when they want .... these things wont be running photoshop or the like as I have it on mine for the boys ........

Having one computer and 8 of us wanting to use it is causing me undue stress as I can never get online it seems ........... Only reason Ive been on in past few days is cause Ive told them if they dont let me on I cant do their computers .... hehehehehehehe

Perana · 05-05-2006, 01:56 PM

Being mostly Pentium they should all run W98 fine then.

Cheapest way would be to get network cards for the PC's that need them (usually between $20 and $30 each) and an ethernet switch (somewhere between $40 and $80) and of course a heap of Cat5e cabling.

Seeing Your modem has USB and ethernet I would guess that it has a routing function built in.

ronwest · 05-05-2006, 03:17 PM

well MN there's a variety of opinions as you'd expect when it gets to people's experiences.

I made a couple of assumptions when I posted.

1. You don't have a modem/router
2. Dollars matter
3. You're not a "guru" on computer matters - only ever met one so we're all in the same boat ;)

With regard to Ipcop (or Linux firewall/routers in general) the big advantage is that in your case everything is free. You already have the platform and the software is a free download.
IMO it is no more difficult for the novice to set up Ipcop than it is to setup a modem/router.
Regardless of the faith that lots of people have in NAT "firewalls" it is my belief that a Linux based firewall is a safer proposition (particularly with multiple computers in the hands of kids).
There are reams of arguments both ways on the net relating to NAT vs Linux, so I won't bore you to death with it.

The support for your isp supplied? modem (router?) will be better as it's a phone call away, but you are more likely to face issues with that equipment than you will with Ipcop. My pm'd offer stands if you wish to pursue it. There is also a wealth of info on the net inc support forums.

Unless your router has some form of bandwidth throttling you really ain't going to enjoy 6 computers on the net with one of the little darlings maxing out the connection with P2P.

With regard to costs you may wish to consider somewhere like http://www.buyequip.net/products.php that have 10/100 nics for $2-$5 s/h. I've bought dozens off them and have not had one fail. I don't know where you live but even if you got 10 + postage it will be far cheaper than the alternative.

I've got to get back to work, but whichever way you decide to go, there is a lot of support around the place

MotherNatureVer2 · 05-05-2006, 03:46 PM

Thanks for that ronwest. Yes I did expect a few conflicting advises about this as I know there are many opinions, hence my post so I could try to figure out the best option possible.

Even though some are saying that using a box as you sugggested may cause some problems I am tending towards it as my 11yr old is helping me out with this & I think as well as getting some computers going for the others, it will be a great learning curve for him ........ most know about his ADHD/ODD and I am trying to find his niech in life .... so far it seems to be computers ....... Lets face it .... If I can find something he can & will concentrait on for a time it will be so much better for him as well........

jmc-007 · 05-05-2006, 03:57 PM

Well i can tell you this much. I work with this kinda stuff in a large environment.

1. IP Cop works wonders for a home network. http://www.ipcop.org (but you need 1 pc for this and two network cards) one for the net and one to link into a switch
2. Use the IP cop box to give your networked pcs an IP address
3. You need a switch to connect more than two together.

So i would do the following.

ADSL modem router/ ->>>> IP Cop box ->>>>>> Switch ->>>>>> then the PCS

But i agree with ron west

Perana · 05-05-2006, 04:00 PM

Yeah give him a shot with it Lisa... nothing to lose really