Young driver accidents: what's the major issue?

[4Vman]

As the title says, what do you think is the main issue? i realise there is a component of both, but which one stands out as being the main one, Is it lack of driver skills? or is it poor attitude to driving carefully and responsibly?

[nugget378]

Mainly insurance company and media driven hype Id say,when im out and about most accidents I see dont involve young people,now while thats definately not proof its still a random survey of a type.
Im sure if young people were involved in MOST accidents Id see them more often,maybe if we had statistics for km's driven to accident rate maybe we would see they'd have no more accidents than anyone else,Im sure the do more km's than most,excluding professional drivers..

[suttoinc]

I voted for the attitude & behavior one, but it would take an advanced drivers course to make kids realize that they aren't invincible.

[andrewts]

It's defenitely a mixture of both, but (now this is a generalisation about P Platers) I think people try and show off too much or are doing silly things on the road, like having loud music and using a phone. I think most P Platers put themself on a pedastal when they get their liscence, but the truth is they aren't as skilled as they think.

[JG66ME]

Skills are a major issue, I think the training and tests require arn't up to snuff. Having said that though, with the correct attitude, skills can be gained through expirience. If you have poor skills you can compensate by not driving like an idiot. A lot of these accident we are seeing are as a result of poor and reckless attitude. Driving like a idiot without the skills to correct things when they go wrong or not being able to predict the outcome of what they do.

Couple of weeks ago I saw a P plater in a V8 Holden do a 360deg donut in the middle of an intersection on Milliara Road Kiellor right in front of about 15 cars at the lights. Thats as a result of flooring it while chasing his mate who did a burnout 10 secs before. Thats not lack of skills, thats attitude.

Steve

[4Vman]

I understand that its a mixture of both, but i really want to know which one stands out as more siginficant, even if its only marginal, but remember, im talking about involved in accidents, so your thoughts shouldnt be swayed by the good young drivers.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by andrewts

I think most P Platers put themself on a pedastal when they get their liscence, but the truth is they aren't as skilled as they think.

Funny that some full licenced drivers are the same.

The physical aspect of driving is not hard it is mental side of it that is affected by a bad attitude.

I reckon not many would be flogging this horse so much if it weren't for the media.

Fact of life, they are going to have more accidents because they are generally less skilled and less mature regardless of how many laws are passed.

[JG66ME]

I voted attitude BTW.

I would like to add that I dont belive in curfews, zero demerits and all that. Driver education is the answer. Compulsary defensive driving courses etc.

I belive in Germany you cannot get your license untill you can prove to the instructor/tester you can drive at high speed on a autobahn and have the skills to to manage the car at those speeds. Do new drivers here have to prove they can merge on freeways, change lanes at speed etc? Are they taugt to handle skids. Wet weather? Probably more like drive around the block, park the car in a space and issue the license.

Steve

[XRated]

Out of those two, I'd be leaning more towards poor attitude to driving. I know quite a few young people who think they're invincible on the roads and think they won't have/cause an accident or won't get caught doing something stupid and/or illegal.

It's all about showing off to other younger drivers and thinking that rebelling against the rules is like having little respect for their elders.

I've only been driving for five years by myself but I can see a major gap in experience and maturity when I compare myself with friends who have just got their licence and others who have been driving for two to three years. Even when I'm a passenger with one of them I will say they're acting like dicks and that they're not "cool." But they don't listen, I'm an old fart (23 next month)!!

The latest example:
Late December '06 a friend who is 19 said to me, "I speed everywhere now - 100, 120, whatever I can get to - down Stud Road, Burwood Hwy hahaha," and I said, "you're a ****er! It's not a matter of if you get caught, but when." He just shrugged it off. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when he told me this... That very same day he nearly mowed down a pedestrian crossing at a red light. I had to scream at him several times before he slammed on the brakes and slid half way over the crossing.

About three nights ago he messaged me, "103 in a 70 zone." Now he is waiting to see what the officer will do - take his licence or drop it to 25 over and take four demerit points.

It only got better, my other friend who is 21 called me saying how the 19 year old was a ******** speeding around and getting caught etc etc. A few days later, this same friend (21) said he was flying down some road past "two chicks as if they were standing still" and the next thing he is pulled over by an unmarked cop-car. He must've been doing 40+ over and some how he got a very forgiving officer who changed his mind from taking his licence to letting him off Scott-free. I don't think he will learn now.

I sometimes think a fair proportion of amateur drivers who don't take it seriously need a major even to make them realise the dangers of driving responisibly - whether it's an accident or losing their licence.

[Wally]

Age, gender major factors in severity of auto-accident injuries
09.01.2007
Understanding the differences among drivers in different gender and age categories is crucial to preventing serious injuries, said researchers in a new study showing stark statistical differences in traffic-accident injuries depending on the gender and age of drivers.
The new findings are especially important because the number of drivers 65 and older is expected to double by 2030 in the United States to 70 million, said Fred Mannering, a professor of civil engineering at Purdue University and the study's co-author. National statistics show that fatalities rose by 7 percent for drivers 75 and older from 1981 to 2000, remained steady for drivers from 65-74, but dropped for younger drivers.


"It is reasonably well known that age and gender have an effect on the likelihood of an accident, but the influence that age and gender have on driver injuries once an accident has occurred is not well understood," Mannering said.

The Purdue researchers found statistically significant differences in the severity of injuries suffered in accidents involving men and women drivers and drivers within three age groups: young drivers, 16-24; middle-aged drivers, 25-64; and older drivers, 65 and above.

"Because the factors that affect how severely you are going to be injured vary depending on your age and gender, a better understanding of age and gender differences can lead to improvements in vehicle and highway design to minimize driver injury severity," Mannering said. "What is clear is that safety research and policy must begin to seriously address gender- and age-related matters because there are compelling differences and considerable potential to improve safety if these differences are properly addressed."

Findings were detailed in a paper published last year in the Journal of Safety Research. The paper was written by Purdue doctoral student Samantha Islam and Mannering.

The researchers used mathematical models to calculate various probabilities using data from one-vehicle accidents in Indiana.

The study included findings showing that:

• Accidents involving an overturned vehicle increased the likelihood of a fatality by 220 percent for older men and only 154 percent for young men. For women, rollover accidents increased the likelihood of fatality by 523 percent for older women and only 116 percent for young women.

• Vehicles carrying one or more passengers at the time of the accident increased the likelihood of driver fatality by 114 percent for young men and 70 percent for middle-aged men, but had no significant effect on the injury levels of older male drivers.

• Vehicles less than five years old increased the likelihood of fatality for older men by 216 percent and for young men by 71 percent, but did not have a significant effect on the likelihood of a fatality for middle-aged men.

• Not using safety belts increased the likelihood of injury by 119 percent for young women, 164 percent for middle-aged women and 187 percent for older women.

• Accidents occurring in rural areas increased the likelihood of fatalities by 208 percent for young women but had no significant effect on the injury levels of other female age categories.

• Vehicles six years old and older increased the likelihood of injury for middle-aged female drivers by more than 200 percent but had no significant impact on the injury levels of other female age categories.

• Fatalities were more likely for middle-aged men who fall asleep at the wheel, exceeded the speed limit, got into an accident at an intersection or had an accident after midnight on Friday or Saturday, while the same factors had no significant effect on the injury levels of middle-aged female drivers.

• Injuries were shown to be more likely for middle-aged women who drive during daytime hours, drive while under the influence of alcohol or drive while ill, while the same factors did not significantly influence the injury levels of middle-aged male drivers.

• Driving on curvy roads and driving vehicles six years old and older increased the likelihood of injury for middle-aged female drivers but were found to have no significant effect on the injury levels of middle-aged male drivers.

"We can only speculate as to why these differences exist," Mannering said. "Possibilities include differences in reaction time and physical differences relating to height, weight and body structure and vehicle design attributes that affect drivers differently. Another possibility is that vehicle safety systems, such as safety belts and airbags, may be more effective for some age and gender categories than for others."

While alcohol played a role in some categories, such as middle-aged female fatalities, its impact was not statistically significant for most age and gender categories, Mannering said.

"In many cases, alcohol consumption may have an indirect effect by increasing the probability of not wearing a safety belt, speeding and the likelihood of certain types of collisions, but once you know these factors, the direct effect of alcohol on injury severity may not be statistically significant," he said. "For the most part, if you are drunk and hit a utility pole at 70 mph, you will have the same injury probabilities as if you are sober and hit a utility pole at 70 mph. On the other hand, whether you would have been going 70 mph and hit the utility pole if you were sober is another question — one that we do not address in this paper because our statistical models are conditioned on the accident having occurred."

Future areas of research should be pursued, Mannering said, including an expansion of analyses to consider accidents involving more than one vehicle and accidents in other geographical areas; analyses of the effect of various vehicle safety systems on drivers of different height, weight and body structures; and comprehensive analyses of male and female age-related responses in accident situations.

Interesting site : here
Counter view here

[BAFalconXT]

Wheres the choice, that young people drive older cars on average than old people, probably drive around more than old people, do more night driving than old people. Or that they are less fimilar with the roads they drive on than old people. Obviously they have less experience, but they are probably more alert and have a quicker reaction time, better eye sight, and better hearing than older people.

[Wally]

Young drivers are more likely to be in unfamiliar territory, more likely to be cruising at night, more likely to push the envelope, more likely to be chemically enhanced, more likely to over compensate with the steering and brakes in a squeeze, more likely to be distracted by peripheral events, more likely to be in old cars with worn mechanicals and poor safety provisions, more likely to let their hormones rule their sobriety.

I find young girls inattentive of the traffic conditions around them than boys. I suspect young drivers haven't mastered the art of looking further than past the bonnet line to see what is happening in the distance.

[Kommandant]

Go view the statistics for crashs in NSW, view P plate incidents and full license incidents, its not the fact that it seems like tons of P platers are involved in these incidents, its just that every single one that occurs the media is involved to hype the situation, you don't see every full license person that is involved in a accident on the news do you?

That being said, I believe P platers have a slightly higher ability to crash due to inexperience, overconfidence and peer pressure.

[flappist]

Lack of driver skills is not the exclusive domaine of the young.

Firstly there are two parts to this.
The first is aptitude and attitude. Some people are just not driving oriented despite what they think. There is nothing they can do about it that is the way they are.
In the same way that if you take 100 people and give them art lessons not all of them will actually produce good paintings.
The problem is that every male in the world thinks they are a good driver despite any evidence to the contrary and young people are naturally rebelleous and have not the life experience to concider their actions fully. Now before the pimple brigade burr up, remember for most of YOUR life you have had to do nothing except eat, sleep, play and go to school. Your parents provided for you, protected you and stopped you from killing yourself (otherwise you would not be reading this). Young people tend to be impulsive and overconfident as well.
This is not just the current generation of young people it has been the same since the year dot and will be for ever. We are all human.

The second part is experience.
This is related to actual driving time and conditions. A young person with 1000hrs of city driving may be great in the traffice but hopeless on long rural stretches in the rain at 2AM.
An old person who has held a licence for 40 years but has not driven outside their local country town or at night is also probably hopeless in the CBD at 5PM on a Friday.
Country drivers on avereage are better than city drivers. This is not because they are smarter of have more aptitude, rather they do a LOT more of it. Everywhere is a long way away and there in no public transport at all which means everyone drives all the time. Also, in rural areas it is difficult to be anonymous so it you play up everyone know exactly who you are and matters get sorted.

Now I am sure some of the young members on here are going to take great offence at this post and the funny thing is that one of them will probably be posting the same thing on another forum 20 years from now........

[bArNsY]

Overconfidence is the culprit

[BAFalconXT]

Whenever someone olds dies, there is a 5 second blurb, if its a P plater it goes for 5 minutes. In SA the fatality rate has fallen, attributed to under 25s ONLY. Compare this to NSW with the strickest P plate driving laws, and the fatalities have increased. Why dont people get over this SH!!T and focus of youth suicide, there are far more fatalites there..................

[atec77]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

As the title says, what do you think is the main issue? i realise there is a component of both, but which one stands out as being the main one, Is it lack of driver skills? or is it poor attitude to driving carefully and responsibly?

Lack of proper skill is a huge factor , and with training comes the ability to do much more than just pass a test , high school driver training is very succesful and should by enforced now along with a series of tests earning the right to then sit for a ticket to drive legally . Such time based testing would establish the basis for skills required to survive long enough to becoime a decent driver , perhaps some of the 'tude might be curtailed as well , when I started driving 200hp cars were rare and my first cars were a FOrd v8 of the '40>50 vintage and a morris from 1953 neither of which were shining examples of a powerhouse . As to how one puts an old head on young shoulders ? , don't have that answer though I will admit when I was young and wild things were a bit safer... although parenting and the passing on of life skills hasn't got any easier.

[GreenMachine]

Originally Posted by flappist

Lack of driver skills is not the exclusive of the young.

Firstly there are two parts to this.
The first is aptitude and attitude. Some people are just not driving oriented despite what they think. There is nothing they can do about it that is the way they are.
In the same way that if you take 100 people and give them art lessons not all of them will actually produce good paintings.
The problem is that every male in the world thinks they are a good driver despite any evidence to the contrary and young people are naturally rebelleous and have not the life experience to concider their actions fully. Now before the pimple brigade burr up, remember for most of YOUR life you have had to do nothing except eat, sleep, play and go to school. Your parents provided for you, protected you and stopped you from killing yourself (otherwise you would not be reading this). Young people tend to be impulsive and overconfident as well.
This is not just the current generation of young people it has been the same since the year dot and will be for ever. We are all human.

The second part is experience.
This is related to actual driving time and conditions. A young person with 1000hrs of city driving may be great in the traffice but hopeless on long rural stretches in the rain at 2AM.
An old person who has held a licence for 40 years but has not driven outside their local country town or at night is also probably hopeless in the CBD at 5PM on a Friday.
Country drivers on avereage are better than city drivers. This is not because they are smarter of have more aptitude, rather they do a LOT more of it. Everywhere is a long way away and there in no public transport at all which means everyone drives all the time. Also, in rural areas it is difficult to be anonymous so it you play up everyone know exactly who you are and matters get sorted.

Now I am sure some of the young members on here are going to take great offence at this post and the funny thing is that one of them will probably be posting the same thing on another forum 20 years from now........

Concur. When I got my P's back in the day, I thought I was Brock, and it was basically years of safe cars, luck and the slow gaining of experience that kept me alive.

Won't comment on the new P-plater laws, because that's a whole other can of worms, but young people and beginners need to have their interests (and those of other road users) protected in some fashion - You don't walk on to a building site at 16 and get handed the plans and a nail gun and get told to do the job - Just about every form of human endeavour requires not only training but time to gain experience before you're given any real responsibility or authority.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

, so your thoughts shouldnt be swayed by the good young drivers.

Even the "good" drivers have accidents.

I went for driver skill. Probably attribute 70% to that, 30% to behaviour/attitude.

How many people here have had a near miss (usually not at fault) and managed to avoid it, because they knew what to do, and they knew how to do it? I can think of plenty of examples from my own driving career... thankfully i didnt come across some of them when i was a greenhorn, as i wouldnt have known what to do... or it would have been a poorly executed example of accident avoidance.

Shortly after getting my licence, i can honesty say - i was a bloody champion at reverse parallel parking... but wouldnt have a clue what to do if someone almost ran me off the road. Now my parking not so great lol... but can avoid trouble in the daily lunacy that prevails in the streets full of middle aged drivers.

I see more 30-40 year old men and women creating dangerous situations out of sheer stupidity/ignorance than i do p platers.

The "invincible guys" are the minority. Over represented in statistics, but still the minority.

[aussiblue]

1. Overconfidence I think is the main risk factor for all new drivers. They often think the are skilled drivers and invincible/immortal. And that's where I disagree with those promoting advanced driver training for the young as there has been some research that shows that those attending advanced driver training courses come away with an even more inflated view of their driving skills and then have an increased accident rate (companies that sent their staff on advanced driving courses and then found the rate of company vehicle accidents actually increased). But I don't know what the solution to this attitude issue is either.
2. I think many new drivers assume everyone else will comply with road rules (e.g. they will all stop at stop signs etc) and it takes some experience to realise this is a false assumption and you have to always be alert for others errors.
3. Inattentiveness I think is the main cause of most accidents regardless of the age of those involved (the last 4 I have had were drivers on mobile phones rear ending me) albeit sometimes made worse by overconfidence, booze and speed.

This is from a mid 50's driver currently teaching two teenagers to drive (one is about ready for P plates) so it is based on my own driving experiences and the observation of my two sons learning experiences. I also know that the last thing a young driver will listen to is advice from oldies so I think the TV advertising campaigns should try and use young drivers who have learnt the hard way. I similarly feel more young people should be on the likes of the Road Safety Council. Having and older person like Grant Dorrington (or someone else nearly as old as me or older) being the spokesperson for the WA Road Safety Council and preach to the young drivers just isn't going to work.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by BAFalconXT

Whenever someone olds dies, there is a 5 second blurb, if its a P plater it goes for 5 minutes. In SA the fatality rate has fallen, attributed to under 25s ONLY. Compare this to NSW with the strickest P plate driving laws, and the fatalities have increased. Why dont people get over this SH!!T and focus of youth suicide, there are far more fatalites there..................

The reason P platers and young drivers are spotlighted is because they haven't reached their potential and are the Australia of the future.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

I see more 30-40 year old men and women creating dangerous situations out of sheer stupidity/ignorance than i do p platers.

Reminds me of this ******* comming the other way who high beamed me for overtaking a vehicle doing 60 on an 80 road.

I had more than enough space 200m+ and pulled it off effortlessly and I even indicated my intentions. This guy was never in any danger at all!

Overtaking on broken single lane roads is a legal move. Some should read the books again especially this old geezebag.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Wally

The reason P platers and young drivers are spotlighted is because they haven't reached their potential and are the Australia of the future.

And also because statistically they're more than twice as likely to be invloved in an accident....

[aussiblue]

This WA Road Safety Council Fact Sheet from here http://www.officeofroadsafety.wa.gov...?Section=Facts is interesting:

Youth (15-24) and Road Safety

People aged 15-24 make up 15% of the Australian population, but account for 31% of road crash fatalities.
Triggs, T. & Smith, K. (1996). Young driver research program: Digest of reports and principal findings of the research. FORS: Canberra, ACT.


During 1999, Western Australian drivers aged between 17 & 20 years represented 19% of driver fatalities, despite this age group making up only 6% of licensed drivers.

Kirov, C., Legge, M., & Rosman, D. (2000) Reported Road Crashes in WA 1999. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.

Nearly half the injury related deaths of young Western Australians are associated with road crashes.
Transport (1998). The Way Ahead Road Safety Directions for Youth in Western Australia. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.

Between the years 1990 and 1999 male drivers aged 17-24 years represented 24% of all driver fatalities. 8% of driver fatalities during this time period were young female drivers.
Data Analysis Australia (2000). Analysis of Road Crash Statistics, 1990 to 1999. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.

In Western Australia, motor vehicle related injury remained the leading cause of death in the 17-24 year age group throughout the period 1988 to 1996.
Stevenson, M., Palamara, P., Morrison, D. & Ryan, T. (2000). Psychosocial factors and young driver crash involvement. Proceedings: 1999 Research, Policing and Education Road Safety Conference, Vol 1. FORS: Canberra, ACT.

65% of the road crash fatalities and serious injuries of people aged 17-24 involve the young person as the driver.
Transport (1998). The Way Ahead Road Safety Directions for Youth in Western Australia. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.
Kirov, C., Legge, M., & Rosman, D. (2000) Reported Road Crashes in WA 1999. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.

Research indicates that young drivers face a significantly higher risk of being seriously injured than more mature drivers. The major contributing factors to this greater risk are:
A tendency among the 17-24 age group to take risks
Less developed driving skills resulting from having little on-road experience
Transport (1998). The Way Ahead Road Safety Directions for Youth in Western Australia. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.

Young drivers are more likely to be killed or seriously injured in single vehicle ‘veer off road’ and crashes at intersections and rear-end collisions. These types of crashes are related to the young person’s vehicle control skills being inadequate in the situation.
Transport (1998). The Way Ahead Road Safety Directions for Youth in Western Australia. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.


Drivers in their early 20s appear to have a problem of inattention or failure to anticipate. Drivers in this age bracket also tend to have a higher rate of alcohol involvement.

Triggs, T. & Smith, K. (1996). Young driver research program: Digest of reports and principal findings of the research. FORS: Canberra, ACT.



Crash risk is influenced by driver motivation as well as skills. It is recognised that the personal goals or motives of young drivers may sometimes conflict with safety goals. For example, wanting to impress friends by driving fast is not compatible with safe driving.

Triggs, T. & Smith, K. (1996). Young driver research program: Digest of reports and principal findings of the research. FORS: Canberra, ACT.



Both age related and experience related factors have been considered to contribute to the elevated levels of risk associated with young drivers.

Triggs, T. & Smith, K. (1996). Young driver research program: Digest of reports and principal findings of the research. FORS: Canberra, ACT.



Age is significantly correlated with crash involvement but age as a factor does not significantly improve the prediction of crash involvement after driving experience has been taken account of. This means that driving experience has a bigger effect than the driver’s age on crash involvement.

Triggs, T. & Smith, K. (1996). Young driver research program: Digest of reports and principal findings of the research. FORS: Canberra, ACT.

May 2001

[aussiblue]

and on mobile phones t http://www.officeofroadsafety.wa.gov...ones_facts.htm

The risk of being involved in a fatal crash while using a mobile telephone has been said to range between 4 and 9 times higher than when not using a phone.
(Cell Phone use may raise collision risk. (1997). IIHS Status Report, Vol 32, N°3, March 22, 1997; Violanti, J.M. (1998). Cellular phones and fatal traffic collisions. Accident Analysis and Prevention, Vol. 30, N°4, pp. 519-524).

The two most common types of crashes associated with mobile telephone use are "loss of control/run off road" crashes (on freeways and larger highways) and "rear end crashes" (in built up areas). Rear end crashes were more frequent for hand-held mobile use than for hands-free mobile use.
(Bruehning, E., Haas, I., Mäder, H., Pfafferott, I., & Poeppel-Decker, M. (1998). Telephone use while driving and traffic safety. VTI Konferens, N°10A, Part 9, pp. 69-79; Swedish National Road and Transport Research Institute, Linkoeping, Sweden).

The frequency with which vehicles with hand-held mobile phones are involved in rear-end crashes in built-up areas is significantly higher than vehicles with hands-free telephones and cars without telephones.
(Bruehning, E., Haas, I., Mäder, H., Pfafferott, I., & Poeppel-Decker, M. (1998). Telephone use while driving and traffic safety. VTI Konferens, N°10A, Part 9, pp. 69-79; Swedish National Road and Transport Research Institute, Linkoeping, Sweden).

[aussiblue]

and on youth and speeding at http://www.officeofroadsafety.wa.gov...factsheet.html

In an ongoing survey of community road safety attitudes, 71% of young (17-39 years) male drivers admit to deliberately speeding. Most (60%) of these speeders exceed the limit by up to 10km/h.
TNS (2005) Road Safety Council Continuous Tracking Research. June 2005 quarter. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.
In the same survey, 79% of young males consider driving 10km/h over the speed limit in a 50km/hr zone morally unacceptable.
TNS (2005) Road Safety Council Continuous Tracking Research. June 2005 quarter. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.
Almost four in ten young males in the same survey (29%) agreed that reducing their speed by 10km/h would reduce their crash risk a great deal.
TNS (2005) Road Safety Council Continuous Tracking Research. June 2005 quarter. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.
Seventy six per cent of young males surveyed indicated that their speed had been checked (by speed camera or hand held radar) in the past 6 months.
TNS (2005) Road Safety Council Continuous Tracking Research. June 2005 quarter. Road Safety Council of Western Australia.

[Wally]

People aged 15-24 make up 15% of the Australian population, but account for 31% of road crash fatalities.

Do you know what % of 15 -24 yearold are on the road? For instance if there is a 31% death rate in that group, are they 31% of the road users at that time?

[merlin]

To answer your poll question I think both but to be more specific (and politically incorrect) I have found that most young females have the right attitude but lack any skill, whilst most young males have some basic skill (but grossly overestimate it) combined with a pretty poor cavalier attitude.*

*The comments above are generalised to answer the question and in no way suggest that all young female/male drivers are like this.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by merlin

To answer your poll question I think both but to be more specific (and politically incorrect) I have found that most young females have the right attitude but lack any skill, whilst most young males have some basic skill (but grossly overestimate it) combined with a pretty poor cavalier attitude.*

*The comments above are generalised to answer the question and in no way suggest that all young female/male drivers are like this.

I think that is actually spot on. Generally females don't have much interest in driving other to get A to B whereas males appreciate driving much more.

[aussiblue]

I wonder about the older car issue. From my experiences I know there is nothing like driving an old car with crossply tires, drum brakes and cart spring suspension to make you drive very very carefully as you just know you can't stop in a hurry or corner fast and there is no air bags or crumple zone if you crash. In addition to my Fords and various other cars I also have a very original EH Holden panel van and I know on the few occasions when I drive it this already very careful driver drives very much more carefully. My first car was also a Mini Moke with slide when wet winter tread tyres, drum brakes and very rudimentary safety gear (headrests, lap seat belts and crumple zone) and you certainly felt somewhat vulnerable driving it.

Perhaps younger drivers would actually drive more carefully if they were driving cars in which they felt more vulnerable.

Ok everyone under 21 into you used Fiat/FSM Nikis please :newangel: