pulled over, time for court.

montyv8 · 11-06-2006, 03:50 AM

hi all. got pulled over on friday night on the way to the formal thing DOC organised ( http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=49414 ).
had a few problems with the officer involved, and the circumstances surrounding why he pulled me over. so i decided i'm taking it court to fight it. just finished writing down what happened, while its fresh in my mind.
i intend to read what i wrote, when i appear in court. have a read, let me know what you think. anything that doesn't make sense? (grammar-wise), anything you think i should add or remove? any advice?
would be very much appreciated

oh and sorry for the long post..
cheers,
Phil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

Friday 9th June.

I Left my house in my wife’s classic falcon, on my way to pick up my friend’s daughter and her friends to take them to their school formal in the city. (Convention centre).
I went to the BP service station on the corner of Bolivar and Port Wakefield Roads where I filled the car’s LPG tank. I exited the BP directly onto Pt Wakefield Rd, and stopped at the traffic lights for a red light. I was in the lane nearest the middle of the road.
In the lane next to me (nearest the side of the road) was an early white Subaru station wagon. There was also a cyclist next to the Subaru. When the lights turned green, I accelerated away from the lights at a normal speed. The Subaru in the other lane accelerated somewhat slower because of the cyclist beside him.

I travelled along Pt Wakefield Rd at the posted speed limit of 90kmph, still in the same lane. The traffic in the other lane was travelling at approximately 80kmph, as there was traffic merging from Bolivar road.

I continued to travel along Pt Wakefield Rd, stopping for a red light at the Pt Wakefield rd / South Rd extension on ramp intersection. Once the lights turned green I continued along Pt Wakefield towards the city. I was now in an 80kmph zone.

Whilst travelling along this section of road, I was in a group of approximately 8 cars, spread over the three lanes. I changed lanes several times as a few of the cars were travelling at different speeds, all were below the posted limit. Even though I was passing cars, I still stayed within the speed limit.

I stopped at the lights at the corner of Pt Wakefield and Montague Roads. While I was waiting, an unmarked Police car came to a stop beside me, the lights on his parcel shelf flashing. The driver leant over and aggressively told me to pull over once across the intersection.

Unsure of what I had done, I asked the officer why he wanted me to pull over. He replied “you were speeding”. I replied “no I wasn’t”, to which he said “you were driving like an idiot”, and “you’re going to get a big fine for this”
I asked how fast I was supposed to be going. He wouldn’t reply, so I asked if he was going to ignore me. He then said, again rather aggressively, that he’d tell me how fast I was going after I had pulled over.

Once the lights had changed, I drove across the intersection at a very slow pace, as I had to change lanes, and there was a lot of traffic. I decided the safest place to park my car was in the carpark behind the Cross-Keys Hotel. I parked there as it was away from the busy intersection, and there was a lot of people there. I was genuinely concerned by the aggressiveness coming from the officer whilst he was in his car, and I wanted to be around other people.

After exiting my vehicle and handing the officer – who wasn’t wearing his safety vest, even though we were within 50 metres of a major intersection- my licence, he told me I was driving like an idiot and I was doing 100 in an 80kmph zone, and again that he was going to give me a big fine.
I asked him when and where I was travelling at the alleged 100kmph. He stated it was between the Pt Wakefield rd/south rd extension intersection, and the pt Wakefield/ Montague rd intersection.

I asked to see some kind of proof of my alleged speeding, such as radar or something similar. He told me he didn’t need radar, that he’d timed me with his car. I asked how he had done this. He wouldn’t reply. I asked if he’d timed me over a set distance or something similar.
He then told me that he’d followed me for a certain distance (but would not say the distance) and travelled at the same speed as I was doing. This confused me, as I had seen his car on port Wakefield rd, but he hadn’t been in the same lane as me. He was always in another lane, even when we stopped at the lights.

The reason this confused me, was the fact that there were other cars on the road all around us. If he was travelling at 100kmph as he had claimed, surely he would have collided with one of the other cars?
When I asked him to explain this, he went very quiet.

After regaining his aggressiveness, he told me that I had taken off from the lights at the intersection of Bolivar and Port Wakefield roads like a maniac. I asked him why he didn’t stop me then?
He claimed he was stuck behind another car. Surely if an officer sees someone they think is driving like an idiot they can turn on their lights (and sirens if required) to get through traffic to catch the offender?
He then told me he couldn’t keep up with me, to which I had to laugh. I was travelling at the posted speed limit, in a thirty-year-old car, that is my wife’s daily car, and he was driving a current model VZ commodore.
Having recently been employed at the GM Holden factory in Elizabeth, I am well aware of these cars’ performance.

I can understand why it would have appeared that I accelerated quickly from the lights, due to the Subaru leaving so slowly as he was beside a cyclist.
Also because of me driving past the cars merging from Bolivar road.

But why, if I was driving so recklessly, didn’t the officer pull me over in the 10 or so kilometres of straight two-lane (in each direction) road between the Bolivar rd intersection and the Montague road intersection?

While he was writing my ticket, he asked what my occupation was. I told him I was unemployed, to which he replied “why doesn’t that surprise me?”

Due to my appearance, and the fact I drive older, modified cars, I have dealt with a reasonably large number of police officers.
Up until having dealt with this officer, I have been very happy with the way I have been treated, even occasionally receiving compliments on my cars.
I found this officer to be unnecessarily rude and arrogant, and was genuinely concerned with his aggressiveness.

I am an active member of three car clubs, one being a nation-wide club for whom I am the South Australian Representative. I am not a hoon, I do not drive recklessly. I take great pride in my cars displaying them regularly at local cars shows.

I was in no way speeding, and in this case I think I was treated very unfairly.

qwigybo · 11-06-2006, 04:06 AM

sounds like you had an interesting evening,i'll leave it at that i don't want the thread locked

BENT_8 · 11-06-2006, 04:17 AM

I feel for you mate , although as a regular user of this road it would be impossible to get to the posted speed 90 km/hr from the Boliver servo lights to the merge lane of Boliver road without accelerating heavily as the filter lane is relatively short and ends less than 150 m from the stop line.
Also the distance from Salisbury Hwy to Montacute rd is only 1k at most and by your own admission you were swappin lanes repeatedly in this short distance so you shouldn't be too surprised that he got you if he had followed you for 10kms
You could try and fight it but i think you will pay more in the end.

schmidty · 11-06-2006, 04:18 AM

Good on you Phil. There aren't many worse feelings that being pulled over when you aren't doing anything blatantly wrong and being treated like a criminal. Hope you get this sorted in court and get a fair go.

Had a similar thing happen to me where i was pulled over and accused of producing a reading of 145kph in a 100kph zone. I have a GPS device that gives me an acurate indication of my speed. Cruise was set to 105 on the needle, or 101 on the GPS. Repeatedly asked to see the reading which the officer assured me he got 3 of. Asked him for infomation regarding when the radar was last calibated. No response. I knew the car as being from the Torquay TMU and saw it a mile away so i'm not stupid enough to have been doing what i was accused of.
Every time i have ever been polite and courteous i have been walked over and screwed so this time i fired up and said i was no way going to cop this sweet and i'd definately be contesting in court whatever he had in mind to handout to me. He was also very loud and aggressive. When i talked about being happy to see him in court he handed me back my license and told me he was letting me off with a warning! What decent police officer would let someone go with a warning that he genuinely clocked 3 times at 45kph over the limit! Guess everyone has their days.

DOC · 11-06-2006, 04:27 AM

Keeping politics out of it, i think if you have done the right thing a cool head will prevail and the correct outcome achieved.

montyv8 · 11-06-2006, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I feel for you mate , although as a regular user of this road it would be impossible to get to the posted speed 90 km/hr from the Boliver servo lights to the merge lane of Boliver road without accelerating heavily as the filter lane is relatively short and ends less than 150 m from the stop line..

i guess i miss-worded that bit. from those lights, it doesnt take long to get to 90kmph in the lane closest to the centre of the road, travelling normally. in the other lane, because traffic is merging, as well as people leaving the lights, you can be stuck at slow speeds for quite a distance. I didn't accelerate hard to get to 90 quickly. if im accelerating at a reasonable/legal speed, it's still going to look like im fast as theres cars doing well under the speed limit next to me (50-60kmph).

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Also the distance from Salisbury Hwy to Montacute rd is only 1k at most and by your own admission you were swappin lanes repeatedly in this short distance so you shouldn't be too surprised that he got you if he had followed you for 10kms
You could try and fight it but i think you will pay more in the end.

I'll be measuring all the sections of road i have mentioned tomorrow afternoon. I'm fairly sure that section is i bit longer than 1000m. i said "I changed lanes several times", not "repeatedly", theres a big difference, especially when your license and several hundred dollars depends on it.
there is nothing (that i am aware of) in the SA road rules stating i can't change lanes as much as i want. I wasn't weaving in and out of traffic, narrowly missing cars as i swerved between them etc.. surely as a "regular user of this road", you will have witnessed the '3-cars-spread-over-3-lanes-all-doing-10k's-under-the-speed-limit' thing that plagues our roads...

11-06-2006, 05:36 AM

i'd get rid of -
Due to my appearance, and the fact I drive older, modified cars, I have dealt with a reasonably large number of police officers.

5L · 11-06-2006, 05:36 AM

montyv8- i think that you have explained the matter very well. and i think that this adds to the small few of south australian police out there that are on a sort of "power surge". me being young and normally go for a cruise on the weekends, me and my fellow mates have been harrassed by police a number of times. all of wich we have been accused for things that we did not do. but saying that the majority of the police force are quite good, sometime we get compliment from them, or they have a chat to us about cars and asked if we have had a good night.

anyway my two bob, all the best with setting it straight.

Big Mike · 11-06-2006, 05:42 AM

"'3-cars-spread-over-3-lanes-all-doing-10k's-under-the-speed-limit' thing that plagues our roads..."

Yeah I know that one well. Pricks that won't get out of the right lane - regardless their speed, or my speed, or the speedlimit, shiit me more than most other road rule abusers. Oh and stupid hicks who can't use merge lanes. But that's another story.

Coppers have a hard enough job to do without making it any worse than it needs to be. I can't understand why this ***** would want to make everyone's life so much harder than necessary. Its just destroying himself as much as everyone else. Clearly a case of power gone to his head. And yes Phil you should definately follow through on all of this, fully documented, with the coolest possible head, regardless of any prior driving history, if he can't provide proof he hasn't a case. And besides which even with all the evidence he has no right to treat you like a second-class citizen.

Aussie_Geo · 11-06-2006, 05:52 AM

Well its good to see you have documented it in detail and I wish you the best but I think it will be an uphill fight. Will the other people in the car be able to bear witness on your behalf?

The last time I was before the courts in Perth the case before me was very similar where a bloke had been stopped by the police for speeding and they claimed they had clocked him by following him and using their speedo - so like you no actual poof supplied to the driver when he was pulled over.

After a fair bit of argument the magistrate rulled in favour of the police as it boiled down to their word against the drivers, and she stated plainly that in all cases the courts will side with the police officer's version of events unless evidence can be produced to show otherwise.

Good luck with your defense let us know how you go. When my case came up I also was done like a dinner - probably explains why I am a cynical old fart.

cheers

Peter

11-06-2006, 06:05 AM

from my bad police experince, i have been tempted to either video tape, or use a tape recorder from now on..

its such a shame as some of em are decient blokes, and some are creeps.

I just bought a roadbike, I had just worked a 15 hour shift (finsihed @ 1:30am), I had a couple of beers at my work place, (i'm on l's), was riding home, back street almost country-ish, enter a 70km zone get pulled up, I think sh1t i'm going to jail, my bike was not in my name, was out of rego, was not rwc had a broken indicator which I patched with orange selafane, and i was over 0.0 plus probably speeding.

I was polite, and he asked me if i new I was speeding, I said I did not look at my speedo (as you never do on bikes - you are meant to be watching the road) its not a cop out, its the truth, I honesty did not think I was speeding, and said that, but also politely said that I guess i must have been becuase you have pulled me over, and that I was just going home to bed as I am tired, he did the computer check?, and said, today is your lucky day, I am just going to give you a fine, and knocked the speed down to 10 or so k's, I said thank you sir.

That was the best thing anyway has every done for me, the next week, I got everything done to bike to make it legit, even though I had to borrow the money etc etc as I had just started that job about 3 weeks prior.

What does this all mean, well there is good ones out there, sure he fined me, but to be honest he could have throw the book at me- wrecked my life, aka $$$$ in fines lose of licence, lost of job etc but perhaps he sympathized that I had worked hard that week, 7 days @ 12+ hours a day. (same as him probably)

the worst copper story I have ever been told, is a guy was travelling out back qld, and was doing 5 k of the speed limit, got pulled over, said to the copper, mate dont qld coppers have better things to than to book me for 5 k over.

Copper replies, Mate, I'm not your mate, Do you want me to be your mate. Look around mate, nobody for miles, How much of mate do you want me to be, Do you want to suck my d1ck mate...

kind in mind this is in the middle of nowhere on dust, so imagine the scene, would be very freaky. Dude with a gun, no one around.

I to have been on the wrong end of a copper with attitude, it was wrong, and so unjustified. Was on the bike too, he called it a peice of sh1t, and boldly told me he'd stand up in court and say its a peice of sh1t. went on to say he was a motocycle copper for 10 years, but he miss diagnosed the fault, said it was this that and the other, when in fact after I pulled it apart was nothing to do with what he reckoned.

best of luck with you court date.

RACINGdork · 11-06-2006, 06:54 AM

bugger off modified and swap with classic.only hoons drive modified cars

Racecraft · 11-06-2006, 06:59 AM

I dont see any evidence that will get you off, you have no proof you were not speeding, no proof you were not ducking and weaving around slower cars... Sounds like you vs him and you don't really have a legal leg to stand on in court...

The bottom line is if you joined the que and meandered along with everyone else you wouldn't be in this situation, the purple poeple eater stands out enough without drawing attention to it or your driving style.. :P.

What did he actually give you the ticket for? Speeding, driving with undue care?

banarcus · 11-06-2006, 11:03 AM

Mate from reading that it does sound that you were treated with a bit of contempt but there is always two sides of the story. I would take out some of the sarcasm as it sounds like you are being a little smart and first person conversation would help as well. Remember, and as hard as it can be, dont be smart or rude even if you believe that you are in the absolute right. Failing this attitude test will bring people undone whether they are right or wrong.

Walkinshaw · 11-06-2006, 11:58 AM

Seek Legal Aid, and fight what you were alleged of doing. Nothing more nothing less

Also formaly write down what you have written here and get it signed by a JP ASAP. Times, dates, EXACT quotes, locations, distances etc.

LUXO_8 · 11-06-2006, 12:08 PM

phil, that sucks mate..... good luck with everything..

**Polyal** · 11-06-2006, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggee

i'd get rid of -
Due to my appearance, and the fact I drive older, modified cars, I have dealt with a reasonably large number of police officers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RACINGdork

bugger off modified and swap with classic.only hoons drive modified cars

Agree with both those comments. If you genuinely 110% know you weren't changing lanes to aggressively then go for it.

racecraft - while I agree he officers doesn't have any proof either; innocent until roven guilty I thought...

Perhaps get rid of the I worked at Holden line, to me it sounds like you are trying to sound like a "know it all", even though you are not meaning it.

GTPete · 11-06-2006, 12:47 PM

Good luck, heres my 2 cents worth.
Not sure about the safety vest comment. If you were in a carpark would the safety vest be required? I would also keep it simple the only issue here is the charge of speeding / spirited driving. Defend that and leave side issues out of it.
The changing lanes "several" times might read better if you state the exact number, over an exact distance with a maximum speed of?
Several implies "many" times too me.
The only other thing I would change is the comment about being happy with past treatment, I would delete this completely.

EDManual · 11-06-2006, 01:08 PM

even if you have proof he is not telling the truth, and the judge knows the cop is lying, the judge will find the tiniest little loophole to get the lying cop off. Judges are just as bad as the cops. They are all in it to keep their jobs and the revenue flowing for the governemnt.

A judge will not go against what a cop is saying, even if there is proof he is lying, if there is some tiny tiny tiny way around not getting him labled a lier. Imagine the trouble: he swore that he would tell the truth etc....

BAHHHH!! gets me fired up, hate em all! :-)

fiery · 11-06-2006, 01:52 PM

montyv8
After being to court on numerous occasions (no, not for myself but to take notes etc for study) I have come to realise one thing..

You have just as good a chance of getting let off as you do coping worse.

Your main point of argument really needs to be the fact that there was absolutely no proof of this speeding. The fact you asked to see a 'radar' and was told there was not one available.
And the fact that a vehicle not sitting directly behind can not judge accurately the speed of the one in front...

Mind you, this all depends on what the ticket is for too..

But yes, change the wording of modified to 'classic' or 'restored' even, or put the two together.
Another thing I am not so sure will go well with a judge is you saying 'your appearance'.. if you are going to use a statement along those lines you will need to back it up... if you want to use a stereotypical argument you need to be careful as judges get a little prickly with that.

Whilst I would not say don't take this to court you are also making a complaint against the officer of his behaviour etc.. You really need to make a formal complaint first against the officer involve. That way when the judge asks (which he may or may not) have you made a complaint with the treatment etc you can honestly answer "yes and this was the result"....

Good luck.

montyv8 · 11-06-2006, 02:15 PM

many excellent points there, thanks

I'll change a few things, remove a few things, and look into making a formal complaint.
the ticket was for the alleged speeding, 20kmph over the posted limit. $269.

olfella · 11-06-2006, 02:17 PM

Good luck with it and the only thing I could add to the comments so far is consider getting lots of references about your character and even driving habits from other club members. If it comes down to a 'he said - I said' situation this may swing it back in your favour - at the very least it will not do any harm.
Cheers - Eric

FordFan86 · 11-06-2006, 02:23 PM

Sucks to say the least Phil..
just a quick question, I thought you just got the ZK as *cheap[er]* daily driver for a new job out north some more?? :S

BENT_8 · 11-06-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montyv8

i guess i miss-worded that bit. from those lights, it doesnt take long to get to 90kmph in the lane closest to the centre of the road, travelling normally. in the other lane, because traffic is merging, as well as people leaving the lights, you can be stuck at slow speeds for quite a distance. I didn't accelerate hard to get to 90 quickly. if im accelerating at a reasonable/legal speed, it's still going to look like im fast as theres cars doing well under the speed limit next to me (50-60kmph).

I'll be measuring all the sections of road i have mentioned tomorrow afternoon. I'm fairly sure that section is i bit longer than 1000m. i said "I changed lanes several times", not "repeatedly", theres a big difference, especially when your license and several hundred dollars depends on it.
there is nothing (that i am aware of) in the SA road rules stating i can't change lanes as much as i want. I wasn't weaving in and out of traffic, narrowly missing cars as i swerved between them etc.. surely as a "regular user of this road", you will have witnessed the '3-cars-spread-over-3-lanes-all-doing-10k's-under-the-speed-limit' thing that plagues our roads...

Dude im not havin a shot at you or nothin, but you have to admit that being a Friday evening on the first day of a long weekend and on a notoriously hot spot for coppers( hell there is even a sign there stating Police Targeting .....)
doing anything standout from anyone else will draw attention resulting in large fines so they have large quoters to feed the media.
A young lad in the town i live in was pulled over the other night in his Calais and given 22 defects and i dont think the car was that bad but it just goes to show that on long weekends we must be on our best behavior and "just conform like everybody else" to use a qoute

mcflux · 11-06-2006, 03:37 PM

I'm sorry to hear mate, but as others have stated, I too would replace the word "modified".

Good luck with it Phil!

red_hotxr6 · 11-06-2006, 05:33 PM

Being a girl i didnt even know they had to be wearing a safety vest once they got out of the car. Two years since i had my licence and all points intact. Good luck, if you know that you did nothing wrong then go for it.

fangq · 11-06-2006, 07:12 PM

If it makes it to court, be prepared for
a. the polices officer's tape recording of events or
b. the tape has been corrupted or lost.

I'd make it known to the police officer in question that you will be contesting the allegations ( have the letter witnessed ), just as a preemptory strike against point b.
If he can't back up his version of events with a recording, he then may have to potentially explain how the recording became lost or corrupted.

regards
Steve

GTPete · 11-06-2006, 07:26 PM

Hows your driving record, if its suspect then i wouldnt be challenging. It would be great if you could state that you havent had a fine or infringement for X amount of years. I know 10 years plus is looked at in a favourable way.

gtfpv · 11-06-2006, 07:47 PM

sounds like you had a bad day mate . me i've never gotten off anything, when it comes to being booked. if you were doing the right thing . why would he be angry , and book you . in his mind you deserved to be booked . you'll have to prove you didn't .
take it from someone who has not been in a lot of trouble or booked much . everytime i got booked i was doing the wrong thing. and when i wasn't i copped it anyway, unable to prove my innocence . so good luck . hope it goes well. do you have witnesses . ? most of the time people dont , and that is the loophole . it becomes law against civilian. but i have heard of some people winning , and you have a right to contest . he doesnt sound like he has proof. so there might be a good chance he has no evidence.

Walkinshaw · 11-06-2006, 08:25 PM

By the looks of it, the offence is "exceeding the posted speedlimit by 20kmh" not, reckless driving, etc etc.

Again.

(1) Get everything down in writing now
(2) Get it signed by a JP
(3) Inform the police station where the officer who gave you the infringement that you will be contesting it. Get them to make a note/provide you with a reciept
(4) Ask for any recordings made on that night.

Seem's like the officer had a bad day, tried to stick you for something more than reckless driving but could only try and stick a 20kmh+ tag on you.

(1) if there is no laser/radar of your alledged speed its in your favour
(2) The question must be asked, exactly how did the cop match your speed to assertain your exact speed?

Give it a go.