Rolled back Odometer?

Moya · 24-02-2005, 02:13 PM

Hi all, my first post here

I'm looking at picking up an AU2 or AU3 falcon (AU1 I don't like).

I've found one I love. Perfect condition, looks very nice and been looked after really good (private sale). Even comes with all receipts since it was bought new. This is kind of where the problem lies. It's only done 70,000KMs, BUT looking through the receipts there is alot of stuff done which don't reflect this.

It's got:
* new radiator
* new front left wheel bearing
* new power steering pump
* + whole bunch of other stuff I can't remember.

My question is, how do i find out if the odometer has been rolled back on it? I KNOW ALOT of dealers do it, and based on pass experiences, I don't trust many people when it comes to cars.

Thanks.

EA2BA · 24-02-2005, 02:17 PM

Welcome aboard.

OK, what state is the car registered in, i.e. NSW, VIC etc.

Got full log books ?

How old are the reciepts, years, months days.

I dont think you can wind back AU's for the record.

DivHunter · 24-02-2005, 02:51 PM

you can't wind them back but you can put a different cluster in.

jonbays · 24-02-2005, 02:56 PM

its a bit unlikely to have a rolled back speedo or a new speedo cluster from a private sale unless the owner is mechanicly inclined and does all his own work.

If its a one owner AUII it quite possibly genuine. When was it first registered?

EA2BA · 24-02-2005, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

you can't wind them back but you can put a different cluster in.

I thought the ECU also stored the k's and when a new cluster is fitted the cluster suddenly changes to be correct on startup, or is that just urban legend.

TheSneakiness · 24-02-2005, 03:31 PM

My AUII still has the original cluster and hardly had any work done on it. It could be that this particular one was a little bit of a lemon...

LG · 24-02-2005, 03:35 PM

The information/data about the kms the car has run, is kept inside the cluster. To change the number of kms, you need to replace the e-prom on the cluster, and use an electronic tool to connect to it, to correct the kms. VDO can do this, as they make the cluster, but like to charge you $$$ to do it.

BJ · 24-02-2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dellboy999

I thought the ECU also stored the k's and when a new cluster is fitted the cluster suddenly changes to be correct on startup, or is that just urban legend.

NO it is not an urban legend that is what happens. So i think you will find that it is just a good by.

outback_ute · 24-02-2005, 03:53 PM

I take it there are no odometer readings on the receipts that are higher than 70,000km? Ask why the work was needed, all the things you list are entirely possible. As always, if it doesn't feel right just walk away. There will be plenty more cars to choose from, it is better (& cheaper) to miss out on a bargain than buy a lemon.

EA2BA · 24-02-2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CH7472

NO it is not an urban legend that is what happens. So i think you will find that it is just a good by.

So unless they changed the ECU and Cluster as a matched set, its entirely possible the car is low k's

BJ · 24-02-2005, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dellboy999

So unless they changed the ECU and Cluster as a matched set, its entirely possible the car is low k's

Thats right.

LG · 24-02-2005, 04:28 PM

That may be with the older model Fords, or the newer. But with the AU, the kms is only kept within the cluster. It has nothing to do with the ecu.

I know so, because I changed my cluster, and instead of having 90000 kms or whatever, it got sent to VDO to put the correct 5xxxx kms on it.

Psycho Chicken · 24-02-2005, 06:17 PM

Don't know about BA but EA-AU was stored in the cluster, it'll change if you change the cluster, ECU has nothing to do with it.

12 · 25-02-2005, 12:52 AM

Well I have removed the cluster from both my previous AU XR8, and my current AU TS50. Driven the car(s) around and thought the km's would be the same as it was when I removed it, but it wasn't. For example, removed cluster with odo at 55000 km's, drove around for 50 km's, put cluster back in, and odo reads 55050 km's. This proves, to me at least, that there's more to it than just replacing the cluster.

**Uncle_Ken** · 25-02-2005, 09:01 AM

How are the kms recorded connected to an AU cluster?
If its by a cable, the cable could be disconected a guy could dirve around for years without record any kms, (change gear / guess speed on tac readings)
Uncle_Ken

EA2BA · 25-02-2005, 10:11 AM

Uncle_Ken since the XF at least they have been electronic dashes no cables

DivHunter · 25-02-2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AUGZMK

Well I have removed the cluster from both my previous AU XR8, and my current AU TS50. Driven the car(s) around and thought the km's would be the same as it was when I removed it, but it wasn't. For example, removed cluster with odo at 55000 km's, drove around for 50 km's, put cluster back in, and odo reads 55050 km's. This proves, to me at least, that there's more to it than just replacing the cluster.

How did you drive around without a cluster?

**Uncle_Ken** · 25-02-2005, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dellboy999

Uncle_Ken since the XF at least they have been electronic dashes no cables

Yeah I guessed as much. I didn't notice a cable when I bough the car. My old Magna (don't laugh) had a cable set up.
Do you know where it gets the readout from?

:

LG · 25-02-2005, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

How did you drive around without a cluster?

lol its pretty wierd, and its daim hard to judge your speed.

Moya · 25-02-2005, 05:04 PM

Thanks for the replies guys.

Reason I asked is because I know to change odometer on AU falcon it's merely a dash change, which are easily bought on ebay these days....

Is it possible to ring up queensland transport and see stuff like registration etc? Reason I'm askign this is, what happens if I buy it, then 6 months down the track try to renew my rego, they see that that rego number and VIN has been wound back and refuse me registration? (Is that even possible?)

Or even worse...insurance. I have an accidenal, VIN trace, see it's been rolled back and refuse to cover me...

12 · 25-02-2005, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

How did you drive around without a cluster?

Easy. Insert key in ignition, turn over motor, change gears and keep your eyes on the road... lol. Yeah, was a little weird having no speedo, but it wasn't that bad really.

With the XR8, I modified the illumination of the cluster face where everything that lit up white at night, to light up blue. Took a couple of days to finish, so drove around with the cluster off for about 40 km's. Tried the same mod with the TS50 (but only did about 25 km's with it off), but the colour didn't work as good on the TS, as it already lights up a very very light blue.

So yeah, this is why I said there's more to it than replacing the cluster as far as winding the odo back on AU's. The best way to prove this would be to get two similar AU's with very different odo readings and swap clusters to see what the read out would be. Example, my odo on the TS has 56000 currently. If I was to swap clusters with another TS50 (series 1) that had say 75000 km odometer reading, would the cluster read 75000 or 56000 km's once it's fitted to my TS50?

Or you could try what I did. Disconnect the cluster, do 5 or 10 km's and reconnect, noting the km's before and after.

26-02-2005, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AUGZMK

Easy. Insert key in ignition, turn over motor, change gears and keep your eyes on the road... lol. Yeah, was a little weird having no speedo, but it wasn't that bad really.

Please.......
First problem with this statement is that the transmission would have no idea of when to change gears.

Removing the cluster, or speedo sender will put the car in to limp mode...
Which means transmission stuck in 2nd gear, and a number of other problems.

This is common knowledge... And has been the case since the good old EAs.
Also think of this, the cluster sends the ECU the vehicle speed.
There is no direct wiring from the EEC-V to the speedo sender.
It all gets routed through the instrument cluster....
Which means How on Earth would the EEC-V, or ANY MODULE know how many Kms the car has travelled ?????

:

12 · 26-02-2005, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyronic(!)

Please.......
First problem with this statement is that the transmission would have no idea of when to change gears.

Yes, sort of. Transmission did change up to third gear max, but would not go into forth, but you can still change manually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyronic(!)

Removing the cluster, or speedo sender will put the car in to limp mode...
Which means transmission stuck in 2nd gear, and a number of other problems.

True, but my TS50 self shifted into third, but wouldn't go into forth, and wouldn't downshift automatically, had to manually change down. The other problem is that the car will run on battery power only as the recharge circuit is broken with cluster removed. So NO radio, lights, etc, ect. With both the XR8 (Manual), and TS (Auto), I had almost new batteries in them, one of the first things I do when purchasing secondhand. The TS50 being auto I noticed a big drop in power when driving with the cluster off, I guess being in third and no downshift would do that, but not as much in the XR8, which was a manual. Any half decent battery will get you around the block, at least, with the cluster removed. Psyronic(!), if you own an AU and still doubt what I have said, try it out, atleast a drive around the block, but make sure you have a half decent battery with plenty of charge in reserve. Or, if you're in SE Melbourne, PM me and I'll arrange a time/drive to prove it to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyronic(!)

How on Earth would the EEC-V, or ANY MODULE know how many Kms the car has travelled ?????

:

That's what I want to know! I don't know how the km's still get added on with the cluster removed??. As I said, I found this out by accident when I was modding the cluster on my AU XR8. Should have also pointed out that I did not do the 40 km's straight with the cluster off in the XR8. Did about 15 km's with cluster off, put it back on and drove at night to see how it looked. Took it back off next morning to add the final touches, and while in the process, drove about another 25 km's with the cluster off. Another point, both the XR8 and TS50 was/is series one. Might have something to do with it, as I'm pretty sure the AUII and AUIII had a slightly different wiring configuration. If anyone has an answer to my question in bold above, please do tell.

Dodge · 26-02-2005, 11:29 PM

it can be done, i know someone who works for VDO, always check log books, then some visual things to check, like wear on the steering wheel and peddle rubber, then check rotors for wear and condition of underbody. also u can check speedo reading with recieps like tyre or transmission service, they always write the cars KLMs down on reciept

*rayman* · 26-02-2005, 11:40 PM

i may be wrong here, but didn't someone mention on here a while back that the smartlock feature checks for the instrument cluster and will imobilise the car at a given number of kilometres without it there?

I'm sure i read a thread where someone had to get towed home after making this mistake, may have been on the 'unspoken of' old forum though....

AU has a different type of smartlock too doesn't it?

LG · 27-02-2005, 12:44 PM

Quote:

The TS50 being auto I noticed a big drop in power when driving with the cluster off, I guess being in third and no downshift would do that

Happened to me too, the car was very revvy. I had to rev it a fair bit, just to get her rolling.

22-03-2005, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AUGZMK

Well I have removed the cluster from both my previous AU XR8, and my current AU TS50. Driven the car(s) around and thought the km's would be the same as it was when I removed it, but it wasn't. For example, removed cluster with odo at 55000 km's, drove around for 50 km's, put cluster back in, and odo reads 55050 km's. This proves, to me at least, that there's more to it than just replacing the cluster.

I have it on good Authority that the signal that goes from the EEC to the cluster to update the odometer when it has been removed can be blocked on some fords. So dont be too sure that the Kms on a car are legit unless all other evidence points to it.

You can check to see if the cluster has been tampered with or get an auto electrician to check it if you are really concerned tho.

O

b2tf · 22-03-2005, 06:44 PM

Those who have said the car will immobilise itself without the cluster are correct. Im unsure of how many kms it would take etc etc, but it can do it, and does. This is to prevent people stealing the car, stripping it then dumping it.

As far as i am aware, the ECU does not keep any record of, or control the recording of the kms travelled by the car. Simple way to find out - swap an ECu into your car (eg some of the E series guys put cop ECU's into their cars) - do the kms change? No, they wont. The kilometres travelled by the car are recorded and kept in the cluster itself.

The Ford WDS can tell if a cluster has been swapped into a vehicle - the cluster has a code/serial, as does the ECU. Unsure of AU's but on EF's there is actually a sticker on the cluster that has the code written on it.

It is possible to make a cluster say it has less kms on it than it has done, but, as LG has said, the only people who can do it are VDO and you would have to have sufficient proof that what you were asking them to do was legal and correct.

colina · 25-07-2010, 10:08 PM

One way of telling the Kilometres the car has done, is to look at the pedals, a lot of people tamper with the odometers, but never touch the worn rubbers on the pedals..

Bobman · 26-07-2010, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *rayman*

i may be wrong here, but didn't someone mention on here a while back that the smartlock feature checks for the instrument cluster and will imobilise the car at a given number of kilometres without it there?

I'm sure i read a thread where someone had to get towed home after making this mistake, may have been on the 'unspoken of' old forum though....

AU has a different type of smartlock too doesn't it?

Have changed clusters before when I had an AU2. Everything worked as per normal in regards to Smartlock.

As for this car, it's not that unusual having a new radiator, wheel bearing and other things at 70,000kms. Some cars have had engines, gearboxes, e.t.c replaced with less than 10,000kms on the clock.