Turboing an AU

[Day-mow]

just wondering if anyone on here know's about turboing AU VCT's?
im pretty keen to get a snail on mine. was thinking about slowly buying parts. can i use say the turbo and cooler from a BA/BF/FG.

[mik]

would be interested to see one also, i`ve been threataning to do this myself, i have a couple of turbo`s in the shed waiting for motivation and money to do the job :(.

[Day-mow]

i got told use the garret from a BA 35/40 i think but dont quote me.

[frd906]

Ill give you a list of postives and negatives when i asked the same question ages ago

Turbo positives;
-more torque from 1800rpm or so (ie when on-boost, you end up with a broad torque flat across the mid-range rather than a curve)
-boost adjustment is possible on the fly (in-cabin)
-as economical as an aspirated motor at cruise (have compared FG XR6 with FG XR6T and they consume practically the same quantities of petrol when you're just maintaing your speed on the open road)
-same boost pressure (and/or the same injectors) will produce a little bit more power (uses exhaust energy and restricts it some, but that's a little more mechanically efficient than draining some power off the crank; this also means that the same power level with a turbo is slightly less stressful on the motor, although this is offset in practice by the extra boost earlier in the rev range putting more stress on the motor)
-no real need to change the cam until well over 260rwkw (whereas supercharged engines like a cam with an exhaust lobe bias as well as proper extractors)
-turbo can come on strongly enough to break traction with rolling acceleration (this can also be a negative as it may kill you, thats if it doesn't break the drivettrain first)
-very quiet off-boost (easy to go unnoticed with a proper sleeper)

Turbo negatives;
-turbo lag (this can be minimised and a driver can learn to anticipate it)
-little more work to install (connecting exhaust to turbo manifold and need to plumb in an oil feed and return line)
-turbochargers tend to cook the oil if there isn't sufficient oil cooling
-need to run (idle) the motor for a short time to cool the turbo before turning it off, especially if you've been giving it a hard time (again, to avoid cooking the oil inside it)

Supercharger (centrifugal) positives;
-boost rises with rpm and is identical each time (makes driving it more predictable), this causes the superior throttle response
-complete kits are a simpler install (just brackets, pulleys and induction piping)
-supercharger whine can be considered appealing (or if people mistake it for a shagged power steering pump it still passes as a sleeper)

Supercharger (centrifugal) negatives;
-refer to turbo positives (although a centrifugal can raise the boost quite sharply too, if you want it to)

[robbyj]

If you have the money day-mow, a few people have done the raptor supercharger kit with great results. Take blueoval for example.

But as you want to slowly buy parts.. maybe slowly throw the cash in a tin.. come end of the year.. who knows ;)

[grandpa_spec_F6]

Originally Posted by mik

would be interested to see one also, i`ve been threataning to do this myself, i have a couple of turbo`s in the shed waiting for motivation and money to do the job :(.

Likewise, had a mate who gave me a turbo however after talking it over and costing up the total install price with my mechanic I decided against it.

He said he could put the turbo on and have it all up and running for a few grand, however warned me I'd be back within 6 months for a gearbox replacement and various other parts.

Also, as bobuleh said, get a money tin! I've been throwing money in a tin for about 4 or 5 months, just got the rego bill and the change alone has covered it!

[Mr Hardware]

Work out what your car is worth
Work out what a complete, full, turbo conversion is worth, all parts and labour and associated upgrades you'd need within the first couple of months.
Add the two together.
Now take that figure and see what sort of awesome cars you could buy if you sold your AU.
Turbo seems like a silly idea now doesn't it.

Now think about what said other car would be worth in a year's time
And what your hypothetical turbo AU would be worth in a year's time, supposing both would cost the same amount.

That other car is worth a crapload more, isn't it?

[grandpa_spec_F6]

I remember a quote from someone on here a while back, was something like "I own an EL falcon with a $25k stroker engine in it, but at the end of the day, it's still just a $2000 falcon."

Edit: P.S Mr Hardware, tell Microsoft whatever they thought they fixed, they failed, miserably!

[robbyj]

I think what he really needs to ask himself

Do you plan on eventually getting a newer car?
or do u plan to keep the AU for as long as possible and spend money on it?

As pointed out, "it's just an AU"

or as a mate said to me the other day.. "you can put a pig in a dress but its still a pig"
(however he goes by the generalization that cos the AU to most looks bad.. it is bad)

EDIT: If you do plan to keep the AU, like many of us do, by all means, i think its a great idea. Id love to put a S/C kit on mine, however 2 and a bit years of P's left, and it is a fair hit on the wallet.

Anyway back to what he was actually asking:

[Mr Hardware]

Thanks D, i thought as much.

Personally, for the same coin, I'd prefer a liberty B4 or a BA XR6T or a TE50 or some such thing.

[blueoval]

WARNING: What is written below must not be taken as gospel. These are my own thoughts based on my own experiences and trials to what I wanted to do to my car only. Everyone else will have their own take on it and will no doubt provide a different argument on the process

We can procrastinate all we want.

The bottom line is what do you intend to do with the AU in short term and long term.

If its get you to a point where you want to upgrade later to something better in the next few years, then forget spending a cent more on unnecessary items. It's a total waste of money and time for making a car that someone else intends on enjoying.

If you intend on keeping the AU forever regardless of what it is, a pig or not. Then look at the overall picture. Have a plan. What do you want to achieve in 3,4,5, 10 years time? Never mind about cash flow. You will spend what ever you want to spend on the car anyway as its a keeper. Will it be a show car? and drag strip queen? a sleeper? a weekender? a mixture of any of these?

My car is a keeper. I have chosen to keep it in the family. Perhaps hand it down to my nephew or if I have kids, to them.

Ok so you have decided to boost it. Good for you.

What is better? Turbo or s/c. The 64 million dollar question.

In short, if you are after power, power, power. The going turbo is a no brainer. They are easier to push power thru, and they are relatively achievable for 4L falcons. Yes you could end up with 250-300rwkw+. But this is only the case if you have thought of everything else in the equation. Will your stock bottom end handle it? How good is the tuner? Whats your gearbox like? Do I have cash spare for replacing parts as they are under much higher stress loads than it was when it was n/a?

Be aware that you will need to look at all the avenues of going a turbo on a factory n/a engine.

Could I go for a xr6 turbo transplant? Yes it can be done, I have seen it. In the e-series though there is some sub frame modifications you must do to make the engine fit. The AU's are identical to the B-series engine bay wise so a xr6t transplant is much easier. Plus the integration of the B series ecu, fitting all the components of the turbo engine in the engine bay and, making sure the gearbox mates up and well. Cost? Supply and fit, drive in and drive away, I was told 7-8k with a basic edit of up to 250rwkw. But that doesn't include getting it RTA compliant and legal. You will need to adhere to your local road laws to get your brakes upgraded, make sure the sub frame modification is engineered (if its e-series), look at the costs of emissions testing and certification. The list goes on. Worth it? In a sense it depends on the person. It will get you 'fully sick' pats on the back from your mates. You will gain respect from your peers. Fine if thats what you are after.

Should I go for a snort kit? Yes that is a cheaper route and they have some great deals on packages. But you gotta go back to 2 paragraphs and ask yourself those questions again. If you answered favorably to most or all of those questions then you have a good basis to start from.

Why supercharging? A lot of tuners and turbo purists say....pffft your wasting your time. S/c is so over rated on a 4L when you can get monumental power out of a turbo and cream the competition. This is true. But I would not expect to get all this turbo power for long out of an n/a based driveline and get it to last. Sure you will get it to last if you baby it. But where's the fun in that? Why bother going turbo or any boost for that matter if you can't punch it hard?

Back to my question though, why supercharging? Well as already been said in other posts, supercharging requires power made from the crank to get the turbine spooling. You can only do a boost increase with a pulley change and boost is only made by higher revs of the engine. Sure power isn't as spectacular as turbo, but I will tell you one thing. Linear power is what it does produce which is a bit kinder on your driveline. This is something I am thankful for especially since I am still using a stock transmission, stock bottom end, stock diff etc. Don't get me wrong, I drive my car pretty hard. I'm not one to back out of a traffic light duel if there is a vehicle there that wants a run. But the power the s/c delivers isn't smack in ya face after 2500rpm or what ever. It's heaps more gradual and it feel like you have heaps more cubes and more willing to rev.

Turbo's really come on song after a certain rev range and tend to place a heap of pressure on gearbox and diff if your pushing hard. One thing I love about turbo's is the ease of turning a dial for more boost. What I would give to be able to do that to a s/c setup.

Supercharging for me was a mixture of buying at the right time. As some of you already know, I picked up the raptor kit off this forum from a member for a good price. That was the reason I went this way. Had I have not seen the deal, I most probably would have sold the AU and went the same as most and bought an xr6 turbo. Just being the same as everyone else though isn't necessarily what I wanted though. So the decision was made to purchase the s/c kit and get it all fitted. I was totally surprised that the ease and simplicity of the kit to fit to my car. Bruce told me that it took 3 hours to fit the unit and about 2-3 hours to custom tune it at the time to make 175rwkw unintercooled. Bare in mind I am still running my wheezy 2.5" exhaust so it is restricting potential power.

Intercooling was the next stage and while there were some initial issues getting a w2a system to fit. I works well enough for a low boost application that basically, you couldnt tell was boosted looking at the car from the front.

I went in this knowing that AU engines are cheap to replace as well as gearboxes and diffs. The one thing I did not want is having to replace major engine components constantly. So far after nearly 2 years since the Raptor was fitted, Im STILL on my same motor, same gearbox, same diff. Had I have gone the snort route, YES I WOULD HAVE GOT MORE POWER. But I doubt the rest of my driveline would have lasted.

I may not have as much power as the turbo boys and I give full credit to those who are making monumental power from their setups, (this only applies those who have fitted turbo kits to an otherwise N/A setup) but I am fully thankful that I am not going thru parts like a wrecking yard. Because that I know would s%#* me to tears. I would say I am just fortunate. There is no guarantee that my car may or may not blow to bits tomorrow. But if you set it up right from the beginning and not cut corners, then there is no reason why you should not have an excellent setup to suit YOUR application well.

In the end, all I am saying is be fully prepared. Financially, mentally and emotionally for either way. Set your goals for this properly, do your research, speak to others who have done this, gain as much knowledge as possible so you are fully aware of what you are up against. It's worth it only if you do it right.

[Day-mow]

thats for all of the above guys.
i realise the car isn't worth spending the money for a turbo. im interested in hanging on to the car for quite some time. and i no that i wont get the money back.
i've talked to guys that have done turbo setups and i am being told about 3k for most main parts and then labour on top of that. so to me its not looking overly expensive (im not rich but its alot better then numbers i'd 1st herd)

i realise driveline will need strengthening but blocks in the AU im told are good for 300 ish KW stock before things need to be changed. thats more then double what i'd have now. so for this i also am not overly phased.

another reason why i want to turbo an AU is because its a little bit more sleeper and un expected. every body knows that BA/F and FG's came with a turbo option but the AU's didn't and this is just part of my personality of not being a sheep and doing what other people are doing.

i'll continue to do some research

[blueoval]

That sounds like a feasible option Day-mow. Im sure something pretty reasonable can be done with a snort kit.

Also going for the 'sleeper' appearance is another great thing. Most people think I just have a lowered AU with rims. The quiet stock looking exhaust throws people off too. I totally recommend heading down this path.

Let me know if I can assist in any way.

[vibe_xr6]

mate i think they run gt 30's in them, hope that helps

[Day-mow]

cheers shav. we might have to meet up sometime so i can have a look at the S/C opiton. although im sitll 98% sure if i can i want to go turbo opiton. but i think you probably know a bit more then i do.

i no a guy that is turboing his VY SS and has also turboed an AU into 10second land. so he know's a bit as well when i said to him its like 7k for a turbo he laughed at me.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by Day-mow

cheers shav. we might have to meet up sometime so i can have a look at the S/C opiton. although im sitll 98% sure if i can i want to go turbo opiton. but i think you probably know a bit more then i do.

i no a guy that is turboing his VY SS and has also turboed an AU into 10second land. so he know's a bit as well when i said to him its like 7k for a turbo he laughed at me.

No worries mate. I'm not going to sway you either way. Both have their positives and negatives. But the popular choice is turbo due to the kw per $ value.

As long as you do your research and set it up right, then you shouldn't have a problem with a low boost (up to 12lbs) option.

I know with my setup, its low boost and still drives like stock until you put the foot down. There is no reason why you could not achieve the same results with more kw with a turbo setup and still maintain your original driveline if you look after it. But that is the key, looking after what you have.

[robbyj]

Personally id go the S/C, Shav has inspired me =p
because of the whole, 2 years un-opened engine, still working thing. and 205 rwkw is pretty quick =D

But if your mate knows what he is doing with turbos thatd be your best bet.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by bobuleh

Personally id go the S/C, Shav has inspired me =p
because of the whole, 2 years un-opened engine, still working thing. and 205 rwkw is pretty quick =D

But if your mate knows what he is doing with turbos thatd be your best bet.

Thanks mate.

Longevity and reliability was first in my book. Plus the ease of fitting the s/c was a real bonus too. As a daily driven car, I cant ask for much more than that.

Sure its power isnt as impressive as turbo's and to some degree I wish I could compete and have bragging rights, but I'm pretty happy with where the car is today and driving it on a day to day basis with little to no issues is what I would consider a successful story.

[robbyj]

Yea if i had the money id be heading the same way you did, would rather a realiable car with a bit of go then a car that always breaks stuff with a lot of go.

Hows the fuel consumption if i may ask?

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by bobuleh

Yea if i had the money id be heading the same way you did, would rather a realiable car with a bit of go then a car that always breaks stuff with a lot of go.

Hows the fuel consumption if i may ask?

Im running a blend of E85 (40%) and 98ron (60%) fuel. I have my car tuned for this especially and with city traffic and pushing moderately hard, I get about 380-420km per tank from full to fuel light coming on. Some days its less depending on how hard im pushing the car.

On the 98ron tune, I can get 450-480km full range around town kind of driving. The 98tune is less power than the 205rwkw I got. probably more like 180rwkw. I use this tune for long country drives as E85 is more scarce in the country. Still good enough for over taking traffic and all. Just doesnt have the kick the E85 does.

Once I get the 3" exhaust fitted, I'll get it retuned and I reckon I should be getting 205rwkw on the 98 tune alone. E85 blend who knows....

[robbyj]

Ah good work, yea iv never heard of E85. Half decent fuel economy your getting anyway.
The only thing id worry about if i went forced induction, would be economy. Currently get 500-700 kms a tank with 91. But a lot of it is highway k's

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by bobuleh

Ah good work, yea iv never heard of E85. Half decent fuel economy your getting anyway.
The only thing id worry about if i went forced induction, would be economy. Currently get 500-700 kms a tank with 91. But a lot of it is highway k's

Unfortunately that is the price you pay for power. Generally speaking though, the car cruises like normal. Its only when you start boosting which for me is over 3000rpm that it can drink the fuel. On the open highway I reckon you would get similar economy to what you get now, perhaps a little less, but not much less with a s/c bolted on. Get an 95 economy tune and an all out 98 tune done with the SCT flash tuner and you can have the best of both worlds.

Don't bother with LPG with s/c either. Ive looked into it. Its a waste of time unless you go liquid injection, and that is not cheap. But it IS possible to do. Turbo's are much easier to achieve with LPG.

[Day-mow]

Originally Posted by blueoval

U Get an 95 economy tune and an all out 98 tune done with the SCT flash tuner and you can have the best of both worlds.

really? i just run my car on 98 all the time. and would of thought that'd b the normal

[robbyj]

Originally Posted by blueoval

Unfortunately that is the price you pay for power. Generally speaking though, the car cruises like normal. Its only when you start boosting which for me is over 3000rpm that it can drink the fuel. On the open highway I reckon you would get similar economy to what you get now, perhaps a little less, but not much less with a s/c bolted on. Get an 95 economy tune and an all out 98 tune done with the SCT flash tuner and you can have the best of both worlds.

Don't bother with LPG with s/c either. Ive looked into it. Its a waste of time unless you go liquid injection, and that is not cheap. But it IS possible to do. Turbo's are much easier to achieve with LPG.

Yea a mate was telling me, put it on gas, and a good turbo setup will cost about a grand. but i dont wanna put the car on gas, a lot of cars seem to have problems down the track with gas. would rather avoid that.

Just another quick question, does the s/c spool when you rev it?

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by Day-mow

really? i just run my car on 98 all the time. and would of thought that'd b the normal

Nah with a SCT flash tuner you can have 3 separate tunes loaded on the unit ready to use.

For me I have:

Tune 1 - valet (does not rev past 3000rpm)
Tune 2 - 98ron tune
Tune 3 - E85/98 tune

Depending on what fuel Im running or if Im leaving the car with a workshop Im not sure of, I can choose to run the valet tune to stop young punks from joy riding. Tune 2 is mainly used if E85 pumps are out of action and Im forced to just run normal 98. Tune 3 is what use most days when I run E85 blend every week.

Of course every one who owns one can have what ever they want on it. Some run a economy tune, a street tune and drag strip tune. Each tune must be individually custom setup to your car though.

Raptor provide a generic tune to get you going for a while. It will work well but Raptor do recommend you get the car custom tuned after fitting their kit. But I have heard of people still running their generic tunes to this day with no issues.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by bobuleh

Yea a mate was telling me, put it on gas, and a good turbo setup will cost about a grand. but i dont wanna put the car on gas, a lot of cars seem to have problems down the track with gas. would rather avoid that.

Just another quick question, does the s/c spool when you rev it?

No sure what you mean by spool. But it would certainly be making boost under higher revs. That is what its designed to do. Generally speaking though any turbine works best under load. So you will hear the s/c or turbo spool harder when you are taking off. But revving it in neutral for instance perhaps not as audible.

[Day-mow]

yeah realize you can have 3 different tunes. i really do like the idea of a valet tune. smart idea that is.
i'd get a 98 tune but no idea what i'd get for a 3rd tune. probably something really agressive or economic.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by Day-mow

yeah realize you can have 3 different tunes. i really do like the idea of a valet tune. smart idea that is.
i'd get a 98 tune but no idea what i'd get for a 3rd tune. probably something really agressive or economic.

Well its really up to you, If you dont know you could leave it blank. It will depend on your driving style and what you do with your car mainly.

Perhaps consider a low boost economy tune with 95ron fuel (assuming you are running boost of some sort) for the highway?

All out tune is good to have if you want to get every last kw out of your setup.

[Barryxr6turbo]

Originally Posted by blueoval

Turbo's really come on song after a certain rev range and tend to place a heap of pressure on gearbox and diff if your pushing hard. One thing I love about turbo's is the ease of turning a dial for more boost. What I would give to be able to do that to a s/c setup.

Good post Blueoval but if you size your turbo correctly and have a decent boost controller you can make a turbo spool up in the same linear fashion as your supercharger which would be kinder on the driveline. Then you can make it come on hard and fast when you get bored.

If you want to supercharge I would stay away from a centrifugal type personally. They are very easy to fit but that is the only benefit imo.

Here is a guy who had a raptor then got rid of it in favour of a turbo:

http://www.fordmods.com/the-garage-f...bo-t69802.html

This guy had a snort supercharger and got rid of it in favour of a turbo setup.

http://www.fordmods.com/the-garage-f...te-t87907.html

Both say they had heaps more power all over the rev range.

Worth a read.

[blueoval]

yeah that's troys car.

Agree on centrifugals being more ordinary. Twin screw is better. Snort do an excellent twin screw unit which is more efficient than the centrifugal