Have car companies innovated themselves out of business?

[Jack91]

Maybe it's just that most people are just too lazy or dumb to look at all their options?
A few years ago I had an apprentice that was huge into 4x4 and had a string of modified hiluxes and cruisers. He was cashed up and loved a good loan. He was telling me about a 79 series he was keen on, on portals with a canopy and all the fruit, it was over $100k.
His mind was blown when I told him he could get a H1 humvee for that (stock portals, diesel v8, Alison transfer, 37s)
Same as when you see people soccer mumming in an mux, they couldve got a really nice 200 series and had 20 grand change. And if they'd have driven them back to back there's no way they'd take the Isuzu.
The only time a manufacturer has actually listened to what the people want is the ineos grenadier, and its still ended up ugly as sin and with a shit engine.
I just don't really understand how the 2nd biggest purchase people make they don't give a shit about it. I'm in the market for a 3rd gen camaro to use as a daily/backup car. EFI (well, tbi atleast), air con, heater, looks cool, is different, holds its value, and I love them. Yet someone would go spend the same 30k on a shitbox mg or similar that's destroyed in 5 years and they don't care about. Likely used aswell, because new prices of some stuff is totally nuts. Same person would look at the camaro in traffic and think shit that looks cool.
Yet these people "need" all the modern crap when you ask them. The only real retort to this comparison is fuel economy. Which isn't that big of a gap once you factor in service prices, failures, parts and resale.

It's not that I don't like change, it's that the new stuff really is pretty shit. Or at least isn't improved enough to warrant the cons and prices. "Here's a driveline that's gonna be rooted by 200,000km, but it's OK because you have a TV screen in the dash"
I hate the way everything looks now too especially the rangers and Everests. They tried to mimic the usa look, but it's smaller so it just looks gay. Everything else seems to be "let's make the headlights as small as possible and the grille can be all the rest of the front"

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

No, not really. I was referring to those just getting into cars right now.

Using this:-

• Greatest Generation (born circa 1922 to 1927)
• Silent Generation (circa 1928 to 1945)
• Baby Boomers (circa 1946 to 1964)
• Generation X (circa 1965 to 1980)
• Millennial Generation (AKA Gen Y) (circa 1981 to 1996)
• Generation Z (circa 1997 to 2012)
• Generation Alpha (circa 2013 to 2022)

I would have thought that Gen X & Y were "great with their hands", but no so much the Gen Zs.

Dr Terry

It's not what I'm seeing Dr Terry, the ones born circa 2000 are awesomely practical.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by FERG_51

ATM my wife drives a manual LW Focus with 230,000kms, still going great and i have a PK Ranger as my work truck. Was thinking about an Escape before Ford dropped them but i didn't like the the handling compared to the Focus. Have always had Falcons and still have an FGX XR8 mainly as a sentimental keeper. Im seeing so much unreliability with the modern diesels that if i could afford one id have a Y62 Patrol for the tow wagon. Maybe a Subaru Outback to replace the Focus. And thats coming from a blue oval tragic.

Cheers Ferg 51. We tested Suby Forester & Outback, my thoughts in my thread in the 'Non Ford Rides section' - actually liked the Forester better. Both are a good choice though I notice a drop off in resale (asked prices) vs equivalent Toyota after about 5 years.

Can relate to trying something and feeling the handling wasn't up to par, vs our Ford (2007 Territory AWD). Long ago after running an indirect injected diesel for work (so no turbos and all the new emissions tech) I still found simple NA petrol was better on the wallet and offset the higher fuel use. I'd suggest looking at the Mazdas, too, as they still have the NA motors.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

I tuned out after about 30 seconds, so here goes nothing...

Traditional car companies have failed to adapt their strategies to the changing nature of cars and the market.

Back in the day, segmented-marketing made sense and worked. You could sell different trim levels of the same car, with significant price jumps, and real differences between the models.
Improvements in technologies, increased production automation, and the rise in importance of safety features meant that the cars were becoming increasingly identical with only cosmetic differences between levels. This combined with increased competition at both ends of the market, meant that those old strategies didn't work.

Similarly, the old standard practice of fitting crap technology, so that you could upgrade it a few years later, was overtaken by the rapid progress of the technology.

Change costs money, and the only way to offset that is by mega-scale production. Many companies just can't keep up and stay profitable.

And for some reason, the world keeps allowing China to play their bullshit currency game, and flood the world with cheap crap. That now extends to the car market.

Plus cars have now become so stupidly political.
Never mind that cars produce 3/5's of SFA of the world's CO2, and never mind that electric cars are charged by fossil fuels anyway, no, everyone must have electric.
Because this is based entirely on sociopolitical bullshit, it's nigh on impossible for the automakers to keep up. American companies gambled big on electrics, lost a heap of money, and couldn't sell them.
Even locally, our importers don't know which way to jump.

And ultimately, the swings towards electrics has had a massive leveling effect on the market. The Chinese can't make a decent engine or gearbox, but if everything is going electric then who cares.

Lastly, there's just the incredible insane hypocrisy afflicting today's consumer:
"Ooh, my underwear must be ethical, and my coffee rain-forrest friendly, and I can't buy a Tesla because Elon waived his arm like a Nazi, but yeah I'll spend most of my money buying toxic world-destroying crap from Chinese Trillionaires.

Very true Dazz about the sociopolitical stuff infecting cars, look to the US this week, Trump has begun 'Drill Baby Drill' and is aiming to greatly reduce fuel, energy, transport costs - he's ended the Biden EV friendly policies too. The US is self sufficient in liquid fuels, he will begin to tariff China in February to defend against their mercantilist policies (yuan manipulation, large subsidies, CCP ownership of big industrial concerns) and what will probably happen is US will remain with a great deal of ICE in their auto makeup. Which consumers have been wanting through what they buy/rebuy.

The world's shipping produces more CO2 and nasties than it's auto fleet - recent legislation took a lot of the sulphur dioxide out of these emissions and temps have spiked. (it reflected the sunlight)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrv...re-all-at-sea/

[CyberWasp]

Bring back and make something we can all afford... a Vintage Dual Cab.
No Electronics or Gizmos...

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

It's not what I'm seeing Dr Terry, the ones born circa 2000 are awesomely practical.

Practical, maybe, actually competently capable? Nope.

Originally Posted by Jack91

The only time a manufacturer has actually listened to what the people want is the ineos grenadier, and its still ended up ugly as sin and with a shit engine.

You forgot the eye watering price tag!

[Jack91]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

Practical, maybe, actually competently capable? Nope.
You forgot the eye watering price tag!

Yeah but it's comparable to a 300 series.
Stands to reason that if they gave us what we want (solid front, coil all round, diff locks, decent engine options) then there's a market.
If Nissan just updated the coil cab gu with the y62 petrol v8 and some cosmetics they couldve charged the same as the inneos and it would have absolutely flown out the door.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Very true Dazz about the sociopolitical stuff infecting cars, look to the US this week, Trump has begun 'Drill Baby Drill' and is aiming to greatly reduce fuel, energy, transport costs - he's ended the Biden EV friendly policies too. The US is self sufficient in liquid fuels, he will begin to tariff China in February to defend against their mercantilist policies (yuan manipulation, large subsidies, CCP ownership of big industrial concerns) and what will probably happen is US will remain with a great deal of ICE in their auto makeup. Which consumers have been wanting through what they buy/rebuy.

The world's shipping produces more CO2 and nasties than it's auto fleet - recent legislation took a lot of the sulphur dioxide out of these emissions and temps have spiked. (it reflected the sunlight)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrv...re-all-at-sea/

For those thinking the US is self sufficient with regards oil production, not quite so..

Much of the crude oil produced in North America is actually exported as it is Sour (higher sulphur)
and sweet crude imported for its domestic refineries which were set up that way originally.
Many of the producers refuse efforts to spend money converting those refineries to
process domestic crude. The best thing the US can do is flood OPEC with excess production
to force down the crude oil price and with it the cost of producing gasoline and diesel.

[Sprintey]

That is true jpd

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/amer...e-import-crude

They produce the light sweet in Texas and Oklahoma, but their refineries are set up to refine less sweet stuff from the ME, Venezuela etc.

Australia was similar when we had refineries I think - our oil is light/sweet for the most so we sold it offshore at a higher price, bought relatively more heavier oil, cheaper, and refined that here.

I can see why Trump is going Drill Baby Drill and opening Alaska and offshore up, maybe they will find more that they can easily refine.

Better still would be to tune the local refineries to the domestic oil, that would make America great again.

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

As I have said before, I have no desire for new cars. I'm betting on my WRX getting to 300k kms

I’ll be in the crowd, singing “Happy mileage to you”.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by prydey

Some car companies have given up trying to be all things to all people.

Ford get criticised for their lack of range these days but there's still a wait (not as long as it has been) if you want a high end ranger or Everest and sales numbers are still strong.

Some manufacturers for whatever reason just don't see the point trying to compete in every segment here in Australia.

Ford gave up on Australia a long time ago.

On the other hand, they are heavily committed in Thailand and neighbouring countries, so whatever the Thais build, we'll have access to. But that's it. They've go no interest in selling much else. (Except maybe the Mustang. The Mustang Division must hold all the photos of Henry wearing Swastikas.)

The problem will be that I don' see Thailand going 100% electric too quickly.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

, look to the US this week, Trump has begun 'Drill Baby Drill' and is aiming to greatly reduce fuel, energy, transport costs - he's ended the Biden EV friendly policies too.
US will remain with a great deal of ICE in their auto makeup. Which consumers have been wanting through what they buy/rebuy.

And that's the impossible challenge for companies trying to sell in America. After Trump ot rolled last time, and Biden started doubling down on all Obama's measures, they all gambled heavily on electric. And nobody bought them. Now they'll steer back towards Petrol, but what happens in 4 years?

The one thing that the Chinese do excepionally well is they think LONG term.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

That is true jpd

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/amer...e-import-crude

They produce the light sweet in Texas and Oklahoma, but their refineries are set up to refine less sweet stuff from the ME, Venezuela etc.

Australia was similar when we had refineries I think - our oil is light/sweet for the most so we sold it offshore at a higher price, bought relatively more heavier oil, cheaper, and refined that here.

I can see why Trump is going Drill Baby Drill and opening Alaska and offshore up, maybe they will find more that they can easily refine.

Better still would be to tune the local refineries to the domestic oil, that would make America great again.

America is seeking insulation from OPEC and any future attempts to manipulate American prices higher. Not a fan of 47 but damn, he’s a disrupter and that’s probably the medicine America needs in the short term, the pendulum swings back the other way….

A lot of vehicles produced today are heading down the software defined modules. Manufacturers ceding more development work to suppliers who control the equipment module they supply and the software that goes with it.
Everything now is just too complicated for manufacturers like Ford to eliminate
Cold turkey and go to simpler designs, their nuts are in a vice and with that,
costs get passed onto you and I, the buyers.

I love my 5.0 EB Fairmont, when it stuffs up, I have a pretty good idea how to fix it,
can’t say the same for modern cars where an over the air software update can brick them instantly.
Maybe our Falcon and Territory survivors become a thing of envy for those who now have a choice
of turning over vehicles every four of five years or risk big repair bills as the vehicle ages.

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The best thing the US can do is flood OPEC with excess production
to force down the crude oil price and with it the cost of producing gasoline and diesel.

So in essence, use the OPEC countries favorite game of "we want more money, so we'll turn the taps off and hold the world at ransom" against them?