How to kill and get away with it... - Page 3

FGII-XR6 · 21-03-2010, 10:23 AM

thats all they can do, change must come from within. all corrective services can do if facilitate that change for those willing to change

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnout

Sounds wonderful. Calling it 'something', doesn't make it so.

In my experience all corrective services does is offer opportunities to rehabilitate oneself, therefore if you chose to be an anti-social, selfish 'womble', then you will serve your minimum sentence and head off out into the 'world' unchanged, taking with you your recent environmental experience.

geckoGT · 21-03-2010, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

thats all they can do, change must come from within. all corrective services can do if facilitate that change for those willing to change

You have all the PC ideals of rehabilitation/punishment, but I think if it were your family member that was the victim of this incident, you would want their life to be worth more than a 2 yr suspended sentence and 3 year loss of license.

FGII-XR6 · 21-03-2010, 11:24 AM

that again is punishment not justice I have had professional involvement with offenders, victims and have seen what prison can do to someone who is not generally a "criminal type" , it can be a life changing event for these people and the negative concequences impact on the wider community not just the "offender".
You might want to wave the PC banner but this is actually about what is best for the community not giving the family the revenge they may want.
you say " if it were your family member that was the victim of this incident, you would want their life to be worth more than a 2 yr suspended sentence and 3 year loss of license" that may be true to some extent but that doesnt make it right. some family members in this situation might want the driver locked away for life or executed but would that be fair or just? I think not

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

You have all the PC ideals of rehabilitation/punishment, but I think if it were your family member that was the victim of this incident, you would want their life to be worth more than a 2 yr suspended sentence and 3 year loss of license.

gtxb67 · 21-03-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

You have all the PC ideals of rehabilitation/punishment, but I think if it were your family member that was the victim of this incident, you would want their life to be worth more than a 2 yr suspended sentence and 3 year loss of license.

from my personal perspective, when someone pushed my mate into a pole 10 years ago, i did not care what sentence if any they gave him. he received 3 years, with 15 month minimum, but i did not care if it was 15 minutes/15 days or 15 years. nothing was going to alter what happened that night. i did not want time in jail, just a time machine - that was the only thing that could have made me happy again

it is a difficult situation - we all make mistakes and in this situation (and most, if not all on the road), the driver who caused it will have a life sentence themselves as well. whether it is less or more than the families or friends of the victim, i hope to only ever be able to speculate on. certainly the at fault driver's life would be serverely altered from the accident too

i have not read all of the thread nor any news regarding this accident so this next line could be totally ignorant. if someone has shown a total disregard for safety - dangerous driving, or under the impairment of drugs or alcohol etc., then certainly a harsh sentence is probably warranted. for a genuine mistake though, i am unsure. it would be devasting to cause an accident that takes someone's life and in reality, most if not all of us, have just been lucky not to have caused one at least once. we have all looked off the road at some stage, gone a little too fast for the conditions or just been distracted. if a child ran out in front of the car at that time, our lives are irreversably altered. fortunately for me, when a child or car etc. has done the unexpected, i have been relatively aware. there are times when i have been tired or sick and luckily nothing unexpected happened. we can all be harsh judges, but one second is all it takes to bring us back to reality

geckoGT · 21-03-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

that again is punishment not justice I have had professional involvement with offenders, victims and have seen what prison can do to someone who is not generally a "criminal type" , it can be a life changing event for these people and the negative concequences impact on the wider community not just the "offender".
You might want to wave the PC banner but this is actually about what is best for the community not giving the family the revenge they may want.
you say " if it were your family member that was the victim of this incident, you would want their life to be worth more than a 2 yr suspended sentence and 3 year loss of license" that may be true to some extent but that doesnt make it right. some family members in this situation might want the driver locked away for life or executed but would that be fair or just? I think not

I do see your points and many elements of them I agree with, although I do disagree with you on jail being purely about reform and not about punishment. But we should leave it there and agree to disagree.

What I do also see and something that you may not is knowing the characteristics of the very mental health problem that was used to keep out of jail.

I see the manipulation that was most likely used, something that is characteristic of the disease and I have dealt with it a hundred times before. Like I said before, if it was not just manipulation and there was a real risk, there would be a court order for assessment and treatment. To me it seems that the judge was manipulated into a hard place, either give jail time to a "poor person that is suicidal and a victim", or give a light sentence that does not relfect the severity of the offence and its outcomes. He took the safer option.

FGII-XR6 · 21-03-2010, 06:01 PM

I agree that at times Mental health issues are used to manipulate the system I see that myself professionaly ( D&A counsellor and student nurse ) but I would rather see a situation where a few get away with rorting the system than have people who genuinly need help get locked up instead or receiving treatment.
Mental health will always be a difficult area and you will always get people exploiting the provisions of the mental health act. those with genuine issues can struggle just to make it through the day so lets not dissadvantage them further

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

What I do also see and something that you may not is knowing the characteristics of the very mental health problem that was used to keep out of jail.

I see the manipulation that was most likely used, something that is characteristic of the disease and I have dealt with it a hundred times before. Like I said before, if it was not just manipulation and there was a real risk, there would be a court order for assessment and treatment. To me it seems that the judge was manipulated into a hard place, either give jail time to a "poor person that is suicidal and a victim", or give a light sentence that does not relfect the severity of the offence and its outcomes. He took the safer option.

BHDOGS · 21-03-2010, 06:49 PM

Lock em up and throw away the key or shoot them problem solved you can suck up there mental state how much money they raised for charity or how many bus loads of orphans they saved all you want but they killed somebody eye for an eye is the only real justice not sending people back out to do the same crap again. There both scum they deserve to burn in hell.

FGII-XR6 · 21-03-2010, 07:00 PM

good to see we still have real live rednecks. when one of your family has a non fatal heart attack that results in a road fatality we will just shoot them as they killed some one , their medical condition after all is no excuse "an eye for an eye"

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

Lock em up and throw away the key or shoot them problem solved you can suck up there mental state how much money they raised for charity or how many bus loads of orphans they saved all you want but they killed somebody eye for an eye is the only real justice not sending people back out to do the same crap again. There both scum they deserve to burn in hell.

fordOwner · 21-03-2010, 09:00 PM

Personally the post headline should be -

How a judge helped an accidental killer live.

BHDOGS · 21-03-2010, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

good to see we still have real live rednecks. when one of your family has a non fatal heart attack that results in a road fatality we will just shoot them as they killed some one , their medical condition after all is no excuse "an eye for an eye"

Yeh if they have a heart attack and kill somebody shoot them to im not a hypocrite eye for an eye is the only way it should be and the quicker we bring it in the better this world will be.

geckoGT · 21-03-2010, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

I agree that at times Mental health issues are used to manipulate the system I see that myself professionaly ( D&A counsellor and student nurse ) but I would rather see a situation where a few get away with rorting the system than have people who genuinly need help get locked up instead or receiving treatment.

My point is, according to the article there was no order for assessment and treatment. If the judge was so concerned for health and well being with respect o mental health, he should have ordered assessment and treatment as part of his findings. I am not sure if I can make that much clearer, does it make sense? Now perhaps he did order assessment and treatment for her mental health issues, if so good and completely fair. Perhaps it is just poor, sensationalised reporting that does not give the full picture, how strange.

As for the heart attack idea, get real. For a start there was no mention that it was a medical condition that caused her to have the crash, that cause was inattention. The medical condition was bought into it as reason not to do jail time. Medical conditions that can be used in driving charges are things like use of sedatives, epilepsy, diabetes prone to hypoglycaemia, visual deficiencies, MS, Parkinson's disease etc. All conditions that a chronic and well know before the driver gets in the car. An acute heart attack does not count because you do not know you are about to have it, so the whloe heart attack argument is completely irrelevant.

FGII-XR6 · 22-03-2010, 05:45 PM

valid point on the assement if there was no mental health assessment the mental health defence shouldn't apply or the door would be left open for anyone to use a mental health defence with a real mental health issue

with the heart attack bit it was tongue in cheek aimed at the redneck comment of lock em up and shoot them i was highlighting how so many people will respect a physical ilnness but present a mental illness and they seem to go down the path of it's all their fault they should just toughen up and get over it

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

My point is, according to the article there was no order for assessment and treatment. If the judge was so concerned for health and well being with respect o mental health, he should have ordered assessment and treatment as part of his findings. I am not sure if I can make that much clearer, does it make sense? Now perhaps he did order assessment and treatment for her mental health issues, if so good and completely fair. Perhaps it is just poor, sensationalised reporting that does not give the full picture, how strange.

As for the heart attack idea, get real. For a start there was no mention that it was a medical condition that caused her to have the crash, that cause was inattention. The medical condition was bought into it as reason not to do jail time. Medical conditions that can be used in driving charges are things like use of sedatives, epilepsy, diabetes prone to hypoglycaemia, visual deficiencies, MS, Parkinson's disease etc. All conditions that a chronic and well know before the driver gets in the car. An acute heart attack does not count because you do not know you are about to have it, so the whloe heart attack argument is completely irrelevant.