Should volunteer firefighters get paid?

[Burnout]

Originally Posted by jinksie

Yes absolutely especially when they are out there for so long.

The Aussie bush will continue it's cycle of rejuvenation in another 20 odd years.

Why not legislate that houses in bush to be fire proof!

The concrete house and roof house that will withstand the 90 seconds of 600 degrees means that people and property remain safe in these areas.

While Insurance companies allow houses that burn down to be insured against fire and local Councils approve house plans, it could be considered a deliberate act to permit a non fire proof house to be built in fire prone areas and a Government rebate provided for incentives to build fireproof houses a responsible and caring move.

How about they just do cool burns in winter to rid the areas of overgrowth and generally reduce the fire risk to life and property, most especially to fire fighters and local land/home owners, native species.

[hawkgirl]

I am an RFS member
During the last 44 a few years ago (the fires around Yellow Rock) i was empkoyed by Sensis, who give 5 days for volunteering. So, if i was still active, or employed by them, in the current situation i would be possibly required for far more than 5 days, and would either have to take paid leave if i had it, or take unpaid leave, and risk being sacked. Thats not right either, and the proposed reimbursement would not apply to someone in that situation. It should be pro rata for all, or not at all.

Yeti, you mentioned volunteer numbers falling. There are 2 sides to everything. I am a member but currently brigade-less. Some brigades are cliquey and unwelcoming to new recruits, and some are the exact opposite. If a volunteer organisation cant retain new members they need to have a good hard look at themselves as to why.

My disillusioned 2c

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Burnout

How about they just do cool burns in winter to rid the areas of overgrowth and generally reduce the fire risk to life and property, most especially to fire fighters and local land/home owners, native species.

Its easier to let it go, catch on fire in a huge way, then point fingers and scream 'climate crisis' once the smoke starts effecting inner city kombucha drinking lefties.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by jinksie

Yes absolutely especially when they are out there for so long.

The Aussie bush will continue it's cycle of rejuvenation in another 20 odd years.

Why not legislate that houses in bush to be fire proof!

The concrete house and roof house that will withstand the 90 seconds of 600 degrees means that people and property remain safe in these areas.

While Insurance companies allow houses that burn down to be insured against fire and local Councils approve house plans, it could be considered a deliberate act to permit a non fire proof house to be built in fire prone areas and a Government rebate provided for incentives to build fireproof houses a responsible and caring move.

I see where your going with this and unfortunately it’s not that simple

This family designed their house to withstand bushfires

https://youtu.be/0MSetid1j3M

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by hawkgirl

Yeti, you mentioned volunteer numbers falling. There are 2 sides to everything. I am a member but currently brigade-less. Some brigades are cliquey and unwelcoming to new recruits, and some are the exact opposite. If a volunteer organisation cant retain new members they need to have a good hard look at themselves as to why.

My disillusioned 2c

Absolutely they are, when I moved from the hills to the Hawkesbury I stayed with my Hills brigade until I found one that I fitted in with (took a little wil) but kept on their books and turning out for longer duration fires (second shifts etc).

Your listed as Penrith, shoot me a PM I’ll point you at some very good and friendly stations in the Cumberland zone, there’s been lots and lots of changes and movements in the last 5years

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by jinksie

Yes absolutely especially when they are out there for so long.

The Aussie bush will continue it's cycle of rejuvenation in another 20 odd years.

Why not legislate that houses in bush to be fire proof!

The concrete house and roof house that will withstand the 90 seconds of 600 degrees means that people and property remain safe in these areas.

While Insurance companies allow houses that burn down to be insured against fire and local Councils approve house plans, it could be considered a deliberate act to permit a non fire proof house to be built in fire prone areas and a Government rebate provided for incentives to build fireproof houses a responsible and caring move.

There is already legislation regarding land and building in bush fire prone areas. Only problem is that it isn't retrospective.

There are 1,000's of houses built close and in fire prone areas that have no protection built into their exterior.

A lot of the safety measures for new builds are cheap add-ons and there is no reason why existing houses in the 2 highest danger ratings can't be modified to at least offer some protection.

They are doing that now with existing flammable cladding on buildings.

I can tell you that new builds in bush fire areas are scrutinised closely, you simply can't build a non fire proof house in a fire rated area unless you have several inspectors / certifiers and suppliers on your payroll. Insurance doesn't care of the fire threat to a building as long as it's passed by council (but we still have the problem of existing structures that would never pass now).

With my place I bought it knowing it was fire rated. I had to get an independent Bush fire consultant out to assess the threat level then apply that threat level to my house design. The report provided is part of your DA and CC application and to get the house signed off by a certifier or council you again need to get a bush fire consultant out to give you a certificate of compliance that you have built to standard.

Some mass fire events are a freak of nature and if a fire is big enough it will simply spread from house to house much like what happened in Canberra in 2003.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Its easier to let it go, catch on fire in a huge way, then point fingers and scream 'climate crisis' once the smoke starts effecting inner city kombucha drinking lefties.

Speaking of which Melbourne's Northern Suburbs are currently on fire - theres a 'bushfire' out of control in the Plenty Gorge parklands in Bundoora/Greensborough area.

[The Yeti]

One thing you may or may not know, in NSW we have a death and disability fund for PAID firefighters, so permos and to a lesser extent Retained firefighters get paid a lump sum if they are injured to the point where they can’t work anymore or are killed

Volunteers aren’t

So Andrew, Geoff and now Sam’s family’s have to rely on the generosity of people on go fund me pages and the likes

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

One thing you may or may not know, in NSW we have a death and disability fund for PAID firefighters, so permos and to a lesser extent Retained firefighters get paid a lump sum if they are injured to the point where they can’t work anymore or are killed

Volunteers aren’t

So Andrew, Geoff and now Sam’s family’s have to rely on the generosity of people on go fund me pages and the likes

They have no TPD/death insurance provided at all? WTF that is bull****.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

They have no TPD/death insurance provided at all? WTF that is bull****.

Workcover that’s it...

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

Workcover that’s it...

Wow. Whatever the arguments about being paid for their time, that is disgraceful.

[roddy1960]

Two nights ago (after 40C and a gusty hot wind all day) at midnight my phone rang . it was my neighbour . It was still really warm and the wind was still gusting . She asked me to go outside . As we looked down the valley all we could see was this red glow seemingly not too far away interspersed with big flare ups as fire was going through heavily treed places way down the highway .
There were lights /sirens in the distance , the cops were arguing with a rather hysterical person a couple of hundred metres away at the railway station museum that we assumed was because the main Road access to Fingal , our neighbouring town was closed due to several outbreaks of a bigger fire and the bloke couldn't get home .

Like so many other places and much much worse off of course fire was at our doorstep like before.

Thankfully for Fingal and for places and properties around us by around 1 a.m. copped a bit of the rain that affected the Big Bash game in Launceston which helped and the wind drop as predicted happened let the crews get more control .

We watched and waited still expecting to enact our fire plan but Thank God we didn't have to ...yet .

This morning the whole area is shrouded in smoke , the volunteer firey's are still out and about and not at work keeping a watch on what's happening and the Tower Hill and Mangana fires are still of concern apparently . The Pelham and other fires around the State are still going ... We're not super close to the local fires (about 18-20 km) but my car is literally covered in debris from the fires drifting in the air from 2 cm flakes to fine particulate stuff.

God Help the people in NSW and Victoria who have lost so much and to these amazing volunteer firey's , career firey's , SES , Police , Essential services crews and anybody I've forgotten for literally putting their lives on the line and to those who have already paid the ultimate price ..Pray for their families left behind because they deserve the highest recognition possible .

I hope that politicians and all the rest of us can do whatever we can to help and support these amazing people. Many of the volunteers give up their jobs and time with their families to help protect so many and there just has to be a proper system devised to offset that for them. It's really important now more than ever with a true catastrophe on our hands .

They're all bloody legends ..

[roddy1960]

Let me add something to previous post too ...Not forgetting South Australia , Queensland , Western Australia , the N.T and ACT too of course . Mentioned Victoria and NSW from yesterday's carnage in particular is all ..

Just wanted to clarify that . Right now our little town 20 km inland from Tasmania's East Coast with thousands of tourists visiting is covered in smoke and with a number of Tassie fires still at varying degrees of risk .

We're all in the firing line so to speak . It's just some parts of our beautiful country are more so directly as each day passes ..

How crucial is good management , planning and help in these tough days for so many as we speak ..

[73 4V XB]

It’s not going to make things right but at least it’s something to help them out. And I hate Telstra with a passion but there you go.
https://exchange.telstra.com.au/free-calls-for-firies/

[roddy1960]

So everyone...We are one day into 2020. We have fires that have never been seen as catastrophic in so many places in this country at the same time.
We have the worst two months of the summer fire period still to come , it's as dry as it's been for a long time most likely . We have resources already stretched to the limit . Lives have been lost and a huge amount of land , livestock and heartbreaking loss of wildlife too .

These brave souls who throw themselves into the fight day after day and sacrificing family time and even income deserve much much more .

If this mob in State and Federal politics don't make some sensible decisions soon in a bi partisan way on this then they should be totally ashamed of themselves . Maybe it's time that some of the GST is directly allocated to help fund paying these great people and helping to fully resource fire departments in every state and territory or ...........

How many of us would argue to say a 1% increase in the GST to help better fund for growing fire , flood , cyclone or whatever weather events on an ongoing basis .

Not many I'd say..

We might not be able to prevent these extreme events in the short term but what about having worthwhile funding in readiness when they do happen and be able to properly compensate the ones on the front line in a decent way .

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

So everyone...We are one day into 2020. We have fires that have never been seen as catastrophic in so many places in this country at the same time.
We have the worst two months of the summer fire period still to come , it's as dry as it's been for a long time most likely . We have resources already stretched to the limit . Lives have been lost and a huge amount of land , livestock and heartbreaking loss of wildlife too .

These brave souls who throw themselves into the fight day after day and sacrificing family time and even income deserve much much more .

If this mob in State and Federal politics don't make some sensible decisions soon in a bi partisan way on this then they should be totally ashamed of themselves . Maybe it's time that some of the GST is directly allocated to help fund paying these great people and helping to fully resource fire departments in every state and territory or ...........

How many of us would argue to say a 1% increase in the GST to help better fund for growing fire , flood , cyclone or whatever weather events on an ongoing basis .

Not many I'd say..

We might not be able to prevent these extreme events in the short term but what about having worthwhile funding in readiness when they do happen and be able to properly compensate the ones on the front line in a decent way .

Protesters Have Halted Planned Burns In Two Locations Today

Protestors at two planned burns in the east of the region have put themselves and the broader community at risk as they tried to disrupt planned burning operations.

Gippsland’s Deputy Chief Fire Officer, Beth Roberts said: “Forest Fire Management Victoria crews were planning to ignite burns at Baines Road Mossiface and Nelsons Road Nowa Nowa on Wednesday September 4.

“These burns are strategic asset protection burns, intended to protect human life, property and community assets from summer bushfires,” Dr Roberts said.

https://www.trfm.com.au/articles/planned-burns-halted/

Hmm

I think its time that forest management principle was communicated and explained to certain groups with vested interest over 'climate crisis'.

Would these fires been so significant in Victoria if these planned burns could have gone ahead to manage fuel load?

I'm not paying any extra taxes - how about you use the existing taxes you collect more efficiently?

[Franco Cozzo]

Just to clarify with the fires so far the death toll has risen to 17 deaths across NSW, VIC, SA and QLD so far.

2009 Black Saturday bushfires in VIC killed 180 people and burned 450,000 hectares:

Good clip worth a watch, its a doco on the 2009 fires.



Are the current fires 'worse' or is it that now 10 years after the Black Saturday fires, everyone is wearing gopros, everyone has smart phones with good cameras and social media is in large scale use in society that the effects of bush fires have a much higher visibility than ever before compared to in the past?

[CoupeKing]

This pathetic excuse of a man....

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

https://www.trfm.com.au/articles/planned-burns-halted/

Hmm

I think its time that forest management principle was communicated and explained to certain groups with vested interest over 'climate crisis'.

Would these fires been so significant in Victoria if these planned burns could have gone ahead to manage fuel load?

I'm not paying any extra taxes - how about you use the existing taxes you collect more efficiently?

So long as they resource the crews better some how...That's what I'm saying ..politicians are the ones who have to bite the bullet and do it .Forget the party versus party blame game and get on with it ...and quick .

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Just to clarify with the fires so far the death toll has risen to 17 deaths across NSW, VIC, SA and QLD so far.

2009 Black Saturday bushfires in VIC killed 180 people and burned 450,000 hectares:

Good clip worth a watch, its a doco on the 2009 fires.



Are the current fires 'worse' or is it that now 10 years after the Black Saturday fires, everyone is wearing gopros, everyone has smart phones with good cameras and social media is in large scale use in society that the effects of bush fires have a much higher visibility than ever before compared to in the past?

This is across more than Victoria ...Read this before you write much more I'd suggest.https://www.sbs.com.au/news/people-a...lian-bushfires .. Yes it is much worse than the tragic 2009 fires ..Maybe not with loss of life because a lot of lessons have been learned since then but on the sheer scale in every state it is . Please don't continue to be so cynical of the scale of all this . It's a catastrophe that's going to destroy so much before it's over .

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

This pathetic excuse of a man....

Their climate change agenda certainly fits with the current situation.

The clowns who were outraged about, winter back burning, high country cattle men, drovers and locking up National parks for recreation might have something to do with it.

Lets have a Royal Commission into why politicians are such dimwits.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

This is across more than Victoria ...Read this before you write much more I'd suggest.https://www.sbs.com.au/news/people-a...lian-bushfires .. Yes it is much worse than the tragic 2009 fires ..Maybe not with loss of life because a lot of lessons have been learned since then but on the sheer scale in every state it is . Please don't continue to be so cynical of the scale of all this . It's a catastrophe that's going to destroy so much before it's over .

I think the most telling part of that 'broadcast' is "have shocked many social media users around the world" Social media users are shocked at someone crossing the road against a red light.

"Didn’t realise how awfully Australia is need of dire help till I got back.
A firefighter died yesterday, everyone advised to stay indoors, everything is dying,
tons of homes gone and nobody seems to know or care.
It has been on fire since August and only getting worse"

Seriously? no one knows or cares, and on fire since August?

"Many social media users also drew attention to the fact that many of the areas that have been burnt over the bushfire season are among Australia's most highly populated regions"

Yep, most of us live in in the country and in national Parks.

And the cute map of 'fires burning in Australia' even has the Gibson, the Great Victoria Deserts and Uluru on fire!

Everyone wants their 5 mins of fame.

[roKWiz]

Uluru's on fire ? Get the steaks out.

roddy, I thought most of us already pay a fire levy. I know I do (and tree levy)

https://www.strathbogie.vic.gov.au/r...-services-levy

[roddy1960]

Okay...Might not have picked a very good link to help try and make a point ..No excuse but I read Franco's comments about the Victorian fires in 2009 just before I was leaving to take my little border collie for surgery to remove a malignant tumor (been waiting since 21st December to get it done) and picked the article ..wish I hadn't now .

That said ..and the point I obviously didn't do a good job of making is this . No link this time .

In 2009 it was horrific , times before then and since in most if not all States like terrible fires in Victoria in 1939 , Tasmania in 1967 (62 dead in one day) and 2013 , South Australia in 1983 , NSW in 1994 I think, ACT in 2003 , Victoria of course in 2009 with 173 dead and towns wiped off the map like Kinglake and Maryville etc .. Forgive me for not quoting lots more in every State .

Franco and others.. Someone please point out to me when fires on the scale we see right now has ever happened before .It's not about comparing if one was worse than this current disaster .They're all bad .

This is about a collective situation in multiple places pretty much all at the same time stretching personnel and resources to the limit .To this degree I seriously doubt has ever happened before . Add in that we still have at least a couple more months of fire season to run and the real point is these poor buggers who voluntarily pull on their overalls deserve a ton of credit and bipartisan political support and financial support for their trouble .

That's the crux of this thread isn't it ?... Find a way to support their efforts and stretched resources in the current terrible start to 2020.

Politicians do what you're paid for , get off your collective ***** and make decisions to make that happen sooner rather than later.

Does anybody disagree with that ?

[Loonar]

Roddy, i hope your border collie pulls through o.k.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

Okay...Might not have picked a very good link to help try and make a point ..No excuse but I read Franco's comments about the Victorian fires in 2009 just before I was leaving to take my little border collie for surgery to remove a malignant tumor (been waiting since 21st December to get it done) and picked the article ..wish I hadn't now .

That said ..and the point I obviously didn't do a good job of making is this . No link this time .

In 2009 it was horrific , times before then and since in most if not all States like terrible fires in Victoria in 1939 , Tasmania in 1967 (62 dead in one day) and 2013 , South Australia in 1983 , NSW in 1994 I think, ACT in 2003 , Victoria of course in 2009 with 173 dead and towns wiped off the map like Kinglake and Maryville etc .. Forgive me for not quoting lots more in every State .

Franco and others.. Someone please point out to me when fires on the scale we see right now has ever happened before .It's not about comparing if one was worse than this current disaster .They're all bad .

This is about a collective situation in multiple places pretty much all at the same time stretching personnel and resources to the limit .To this degree I seriously doubt has ever happened before . Add in that we still have at least a couple more months of fire season to run and the real point is these poor buggers who voluntarily pull on their overalls deserve a ton of credit and bipartisan political support and financial support for their trouble .

That's the crux of this thread isn't it ?... Find a way to support their efforts and stretched resources in the current terrible start to 2020.

Politicians do what you're paid for , get off your collective ***** and make decisions to make that happen sooner rather than later.

Does anybody disagree with that ?

The problem with using the current fires as an example is you have a sample size of one - you've got a solitary incident and then trying to use the exception as the rule, suddenly every future fire is going to be on the scale of this one.

Yes its unprecedented to have a fire on this scale, but its also an outlier, if this starts happening every year then yes, we've got serious problems.

As per earlier in this thread we're suddenly forgetting the protests over backburning so that they can't go ahead, drovers being locked out of forests, these all contribute to bush fire management, to mitigate risks.

But no we're all going to point fingers at lazy politicians - yes politicians suck but you (collectively) also put them there.

Where does personal responsibility come into it, you want to live out in the woods in a remote area then the risk of that is bush fires - where you are relying on isolated volunteers with old equipment.

Why is the solution taxing everyone else? Why not putting levies or increasing rates on people who live in risky areas - user pays system? Why doesn't the community fund their own equipment and fire fighters?

The problem with increasing GST is it disproportionately effects people on lower incomes - a GST hike hurts the people on the lower end of the scale much more than those in the middle and at the upper echelons, its not fair on them.

User pays - you want to live in the boonies then you fund it, or the building regulations are retrospective as per Mr Festiva raised, you should have your own large water storage, fire fighting pumps and sprinkler systems on your own home and attend yearly bush fire management refresher courses, give you the tools and the knowledge to defend your most important asset.

The Government has a serious revenue problem, we dig things out of the ground and sell it to China and swap overinflated houses among ourselves and the Government capitalises on the capital gains taxes and stamp duties - thats it., we have no major industries other than mining, tourism and educating foreign students.

It cannot afford to provide the funding required to have a good level of firefighters being compensated in national disasters - you can make a choice, do you want to pick between government funded health care and pharmaceuticals or do you want more paid fire fighters across the nation?

So, since you're insisting on the government paying for this, what industry are you going to grow to increase revenue?

You're trying to address the problem at the end result - bushfire, it shouldn't get to this stage.

We should be addressing the problem at forest management level BEFORE it turns into a national disaster on a huge scale.

VIC and NSW already subsidise most of the country as it is, Melbourne and Sydney have huge economies and 40% of our entire population live in these two cities alone, SA and TAS take more money than they generate in GST:

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...1d81f9d00b2460

So we raise the GST to defend rural communities but Melbourne and Sydney foots the bill again?

Before you start throwing money around we don't have you can address why a huge percentage of youth go through university in Adelaide, then end up living and working in Melbourne or Sydney because the lack of work back home which is a shame.

[Cav]

History 2003
How right this CFA Captain was in 2003.
This is a quarter of the submission
Committee Secretary:
House Select Committee on recent Australian Bushfires
Submitted by: L.Ralph Barraclough,
Captain Licola Fire Brigade, Licola 3858
Introduction 2003
The 2003 fires, like most previous big fires have all eventuated for the same reasons - the people in the cities with the power thought they knew better. The present policies virtually insure much of the rest of the State of Victoria will be finished off.
Risk reduction in the Wellington Valley of the Alpine National Park has been zero for the last 7 - 8 years. In a perfect year like this for cool burning, nothing has happened. DSE ground crews have been on vegetation recovery work for a fire eventuating from inadequate cool burning.
The fuel levels along the Wellington Valley are so high and the country so steep and rough that an escaping fire could be uncontrollable within minutes. So fearful is our Brigade of the National Park and especially the Wellington Valley, it is unlikely we could get a crew into the area unless there were mild conditions. A fire escaping from this area has the potential to trap over 1,000 people whose escape could be cut off by spot fires. It could also threaten private landholdings around Licola where the DSE has thrust plans on us for the two previous park fires that involved burning out large tracts of private landholdings for a break. This is when better and safer approaches would have been more appropriate. All the Government has done is increase the penalties for landholders who try to protect themselves by back burning.
For the last three summers nothing has been done by Parks Victoria to address the danger around fire places in the Wellington Valley, my complaints have been falling on deaf uncaring ears. I have been extinguishing fires on total fire ban days, abandoned fires, excessively large fires, unattended fires, fires lit and abandoned against box logs which could smoulder for days and many fires with substantially insufficient clearances to surrounding fine fuels.
There has been fire after fire involving National Parks, the Caledonia (1998), Grampians (1999), Big Dessert (2002, North East (1993) and Mulundung (1993), that all had one or more of the following similarities.

(1) All originated from either a National or State Park with a ridiculous fuel build up that they could not successfully fight a large fire amongst, then came out onto private land.

(2) There was a blackout of information from the DSE to other agencies, surrounding landholders and public, at the beginning of the fire.

(3) The fires could have been extinguished at the beginning.

(4) The control centres were too far from the scene, out of touch, uncooperative, un-supportive, uncoordinated with other agencies while lacking and avoiding local knowledge. So bad was the lack of cooperation at Licola in 1998, most of the CFA packed up and relocated elsewhere. This was when we could see a large fire developing.

(5) The fire fighting operations were often inadequate, shoddy and questionable to say the least.

(6) Private landholdings were not adequately protected, unnecessarily sacrificed, or just left to burn.

(7) These big fires cost a phenomenal amount of money, most of which could have been saved with proper fuel reduction from a competent Department.

.

Judge Stretton made the following comment in his scathing report after the 1939 fires:"to expose and scotch the foolish enmities which mar the management of the forests by public departments who being our servants, have become so much our masters that in some respects they loose sight of our interests in the promotion of their mutual animosities."

Little appears to have been learnt by the people with the power since then, nothing is likely to happen until body bags start leaving the area.


Acknowledgments
I would like to thank all the wonderful people from Licola and the many dedicated supporters from outside who have stuck by me as a Brigade Captain and member of the Community. This has not been an easy task as it has seemed so many powerful Government agencies sole desire was to silence this small Brigade and Community trying to stop the disaster that has subsequently happened with the 2003 fires.

[Cav]

[Cav]

[The Yeti]

A bit off topic (nothing todo with paying volunteer firefighters) but still on the subject of the current fires

You’ll remember back in the 19th of December (seems so long ago now) Geoff and Andrew passed away when their tanker was hit by a falling tree.

Today was Geoff’s funeral, I openly admit I teared up when I saw the article.