Will the Holden brand survive?

[stefcio007]

Cleaning out my inbox and came across this email from APESMA in 2011.

Help us Save Engineering Jobs at Holden

Holden is considering cutting approx. 300 engineering jobs in Melbourne.

These job losses would see the end of Australian engineering on the iconic Commodore from 2014.

This morning APESMA has launched a campaign to raise community awareness and stop this decision.

Support this campaign:

- Visit the Save Our Commodore site, sign our petition, pass it on to your friends

- "Like" or "Share" this on facebook/Save Our Commodore

- Retweet campaign messages on Twitter - look for @holdenengineers

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Maloo is a plastic dog turd, your tasted buds are in your butt hole

But at least its a true ute, not a cab chassis and tub.
Ford stopped building utes back at XH.

[arronm]

Thead needs more TURBO.....

[mondeomatureguy]

I wished they never got rid of the V8 utes racing they where great to watch.
I am a Long Time Loyal Ford fan but when you watch the Ford and Holden V8 utes going for it that was just great to see.

I have a DVD of the 2015 Highlights v8 utes and very sad that there gone now and the only time you will see them now is on DVD

RIP V8 Utes!

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

But at least its a true ute, not a cab chassis and tub.
Ford stopped building utes back at XH.

Ford didn't invent the Ute. There were Utility type vehicles around well before Ford merged the back half of one with the front of a passenger car to create a new style of vehicle.

The cab-chassis/tub Falcon's from AU to FGX are still "Utes". The unibody versions you're referring to are technically called Coupe Utilities.
There are heaps of different Utility vehicles out there with a separate cab & tub... and they're all "Utes"

I've owned two XB Falcon Utes (Coupe Utilities) and a BA Falcon tray back Ute... and in the 80s I had a company supplied Hilux Ute (with a long tub). They all had their differences (4, 6 & 8cyl... Auto, Manual .. floor or column shift... etc) but they are all "Utes"

I've never heard anyone carry on about how a Holden 1tonner wasn't a Ute (or a Commodore 1tonner for that matter)
The Holden HQ-on Coupe Utilities (and vans) shared the full chassis with the 1tonner... which means they share more in common with the original Ford Coupe Utilities than the later monocoque Ford (& others) versions. Does that mean that not having a full chassis = not a "real Ute" too ?

Sure... I prefer the look of a Coupe Utility over a Cab-Chassis/tub style Ute... but I'd still take a late model Ford Ute over a Holden Coupe Utility any day (that's just my preference)

This might be just my opinion... but I won't stop calling a Ute, a "Ute" just because there's a gap between the cab & the tub.

D

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

Ford didn't invent the Ute. There were Utility type vehicles around well before Ford merged the back half of one with the front of a passenger car to create a new style of vehicle.

The cab-chassis/tub Falcon's from AU to FGX are still "Utes". The unibody versions you're referring to are technically called Coupe Utilities.
There are heaps of different Utility vehicles out there with a separate cab & tub... and they're all "Utes"

I've owned two XB Falcon Utes (Coupe Utilities) and a BA Falcon tray back Ute... and in the 80s I had a company supplied Hilux Ute (with a long tub). They all had their differences (4, 6 & 8cyl... Auto, Manual .. floor or column shift... etc) but they are all "Utes"

I've never heard anyone carry on about how a Holden 1tonner wasn't a Ute (or a Commodore 1tonner for that matter)
The Holden HQ-on Coupe Utilities (and vans) shared the full chassis with the 1tonner... which means they share more in common with the original Ford Coupe Utilities than the later monocoque Ford (& others) versions. Does that mean that not having a full chassis = not a "real Ute" too ?

Sure... I prefer the look of a Coupe Utility over a Cab-Chassis/tub style Ute... but I'd still take a late model Ford Ute over a Holden Coupe Utility any day (that's just my preference)

This might be just my opinion... but I won't stop calling a Ute, a "Ute" just because there's a gap between the cab & the tub.

D

I'll agree with most of that, except that a Holden One-Tonner was never a Ute, either are AU/BA/BF/FG cab-chassis with trays.

I think that a ute has to have a body-style tub, at the very least. A Hilux with a body-style tub is a Ute, but with a tray it's a pick-up.

Dr Terry

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

Ford didn't invent the Ute. There were Utility type vehicles around well before Ford merged the back half of one with the front of a passenger car to create a new style of vehicle.

I've never heard anyone carry on about how a Holden 1tonner wasn't a Ute (or a Commodore 1tonner for that matter)
The Holden HQ-on Coupe Utilities (and vans) shared the full chassis with the 1tonner... which means they share more in common with the original Ford Coupe Utilities than the later monocoque Ford (& others) versions. Does that mean that not having a full chassis = not a "real Ute" too ?

Sure... I prefer the look of a Coupe Utility over a Cab-Chassis/tub style Ute... but I'd still take a late model Ford Ute over a Holden Coupe Utility any day (that's just my preference)

This might be just my opinion... but I won't stop calling a Ute, a "Ute" just because there's a gap between the cab & the tub.

D

That stirred the pot.
The Holden One tonner wasn't a ute it was called the cab chassis one tonner. Yes I know all about full chassis Holden vans, utes and tonners, I owned several. Bloody good commercials they built. Tonner chassis was slightly different to van and ute BTW. slightly altered rails and ribs.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

That stirred the pot.
The Holden One tonner wasn't a ute it was called the cab chassis one tonner. Yes I know all about full chassis Holden vans, utes and tonners, I owned several. Bloody good commercials they built. Tonner chassis was slightly different to van and ute BTW. slightly altered rails and ribs.

The One-Tonner wheelbase was longer as well.

The utes & vans wheelbase was 114 inches while the One-Tonner was 120.4 inches.

Dr Terry

[Bossxr8]

https://www.caradvice.com.au/837828/...ptive-conduct/


Holden dealers have written to the global boss of General Motors, Mary Barra, threatening legal action for what they claim was “deceptive” and “unconscionable” conduct in the lead-up to the shutdown of the iconic brand.

The network of 185 Holden dealers who operate 203 showrooms claim General Motors was aware there was a risk it would close Holden – even though the company had been asking for showroom upgrades and assuring the network it was here for the long term.

The letter from a high powered law firm and addressed to the global boss of General Motors, Mary Barra, (pictured below) has been obtained by CarAdvice.

Lawyers for HBL Ebsworth, acting on behalf of Holden dealers, claim General Motors and Holden “have known for a considerable period of time that (it) was considering exiting the right-hand-drive market which would result in … Holden’s business being unviable”.

The letter also asked General Motors to retain all internal records regarding any decisions on the future of Holden because, it said, “if the dispute cannot be resolved, legal proceedings will be commenced in Australia against Holden and (General Motors).”

A statement from Holden categorically denied the claims and said: “Holden does not comment on actual or threatened litigation. Holden strongly disagrees with any assertion that it has acted improperly. Holden believes the compensation offer to its dealers is fair.”


The legal letter alleges General Motors and Holden “consistently made representations to dealers to the effect that (Holden) were staying in the Australian market in the long term and would continue to sell motor vehicles” and “by their silence, they failed to disclose a risk that … Holden would cease its operations in Australia.”

General Motors is still in compensation negotiations with 185 Holden dealers who operate 203 showrooms across Australia.

Holden dealers claim the initial offer to them is “grossly inadequate”, however General Motors says its calculations are fair and based on the average earning on cars sold over an extended period – and when profits were higher than they were leading up to the shutdown announcement.

Holden dealers say the compensation offered by General Motors amounted to an average of approximately $1500 per car sold over the nominated period, but forensic accounting firm KPMG has calculated that dealers are owed approximately $6100 per car sold over the nominated period, four times more than the initial offer. KPMG also claims Holden dealers in New Zealand are being offered "almost double" the amount offered to dealers in Australia.

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

https://www.caradvice.com.au/837828/...ptive-conduct/


Holden dealers have written to the global boss of General Motors, Mary Barra, threatening legal action for what they claim was “deceptive” and “unconscionable” conduct in the lead-up to the shutdown of the iconic brand.

The network of 185 Holden dealers who operate 203 showrooms claim General Motors was aware there was a risk it would close Holden – even though the company had been asking for showroom upgrades and assuring the network it was here for the long term.

The letter from a high powered law firm and addressed to the global boss of General Motors, Mary Barra, (pictured below) has been obtained by CarAdvice.

Lawyers for HBL Ebsworth, acting on behalf of Holden dealers, claim General Motors and Holden “have known for a considerable period of time that (it) was considering exiting the right-hand-drive market which would result in … Holden’s business being unviable”.

The letter also asked General Motors to retain all internal records regarding any decisions on the future of Holden because, it said, “if the dispute cannot be resolved, legal proceedings will be commenced in Australia against Holden and (General Motors).”

A statement from Holden categorically denied the claims and said: “Holden does not comment on actual or threatened litigation. Holden strongly disagrees with any assertion that it has acted improperly. Holden believes the compensation offer to its dealers is fair.”


The legal letter alleges General Motors and Holden “consistently made representations to dealers to the effect that (Holden) were staying in the Australian market in the long term and would continue to sell motor vehicles” and “by their silence, they failed to disclose a risk that … Holden would cease its operations in Australia.”

General Motors is still in compensation negotiations with 185 Holden dealers who operate 203 showrooms across Australia.

Holden dealers claim the initial offer to them is “grossly inadequate”, however General Motors says its calculations are fair and based on the average earning on cars sold over an extended period – and when profits were higher than they were leading up to the shutdown announcement.

Holden dealers say the compensation offered by General Motors amounted to an average of approximately $1500 per car sold over the nominated period, but forensic accounting firm KPMG has calculated that dealers are owed approximately $6100 per car sold over the nominated period, four times more than the initial offer. KPMG also claims Holden dealers in New Zealand are being offered "almost double" the amount offered to dealers in Australia.

I think that story is wrong. You know an Australian Company like Holden would never screw over it's dealers. Being Australian, they would be open and honest true blue.

Bloody hell, that's right they're actually yanks. What was I thinking.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

The One-Tonner wheelbase was longer as well.

The utes & vans wheelbase was 114 inches while the One-Tonner was 120.4 inches.

Dr Terry

Just to add a bit of nostalgia to the thread, been looking over the old brochures I have.

[MercuryT]

Originally Posted by arronm

Thead needs more TURBO.....

Thinking of doing that to my R36 (VW)

Already deceptively quick stock (comparitively speaking to stock V8 commos. XRT/G6T would have the edge) but not sure anyone in Aust does it.

The DSG not the engine or chassis i'd be most worried about coping. Then car is dead as noone can fix them.

[mondeomatureguy]

great pics Dr Terry,
I remember when the Kingswood SL model came out that was the model with Radial Tuned Suspension.
It was also the First Holden to come out with 4 wheel Disc brakes.

My cousin who worked for Holden at there Pagewood Plant said to me after I left High School in 1976" I will get you a job here at Holden they shut the plant in Pagewood in 1980.

The Pagewood plant was closed during Holdens restricting and rationalisation pf plants throughout Australia.

[Bossxr8]

It just gets juicier.

https://www.caradvice.com.au/844824/...axe-the-brand/

Dealer representatives suspect General Motors may have known it was going to shut Holden more than a year before its announcement.


Holden dealers have hired a private investigation firm to find out if US car giant General Motors knew it was going to axe the iconic Australian brand more than a year before the shutdown announcement.

They say General Motors continued to encourage investment in showroom upgrades, promised a raft of new models, and had recently signed the Holden dealer network to five-year franchise agreements even though, they claim, Detroit already had plans to shut its Australian division.

The Holden Dealer Council – which represents 185 dealers who operate 203 showrooms across Australia – has appointed a corporate investigation firm to find out if General Motors tried to sell Holden when it offloaded its European brands Opel and Vauxhall to French car giant Peugeot-Citroen in 2017 – a rumour which was reported on but strenuously denied at the time.


The Holden dealer group – which is in the middle of tense negotiations with General Motors over compensation for ending their franchise agreements almost three years early – also suspects the company knew Holden was going to be axed when it made plans to shut two remaining factories in right-hand-drive countries, Thailand and India.

General Motors sold assembly lines in Thailand and India to China’s Great Wall Motors, with the deals finalised in late 2019 and early 2020.

However, General Motors announced as far back as November 2018 that it was preparing to close two overseas factories – in addition to shutting a number of facilities in North America as part of a global restructure.

In that announcement, General Motors did not reveal which of its two international factories would close.

“In addition to the previously announced closure of the assembly plant in Gunsan, Korea, GM will cease the operations of two additional plants outside North America by the end of 2019,” said a media statement from General Motors issued in November 2018.

Since the end of Australian manufacturing in October 2017, Holden sourced most of its showroom line-up from South Korea and Thailand, two factories that would eventually be closed or sold.

Out of Holden’s entire range, only two cars – the Acadia and Equinox SUVs – came from the US and Mexico, and sold in relatively low volumes in Australia.

A letter from an Australian corporate investigation firm sent to Holden dealer representatives – a copy of which has been obtained by CarAdvice – acknowledges it has been appointed to examine “the sale of Opel by General Motors to the Peugeot-Citroen Group in 2017, and whether Holden was offered as part of the sale agreement”.

“Further to this,” the letter says, “we are also to investigate the sale of the General Motors plant known as Talegaon in India, and whether this sale included the sale of Thailand at the time when negotiations began”.


The investigation firm is based in Australia but works with licenced affiliates in other countries.

Executives from General Motors, Holden and Peugeot-Citroen have consistently denied there was ever a plan for the French company to take Holden as part of the Vauxhall-Opel deal.

However, an expert in automotive franchise agreements, Bob Gardini, says there is a possibility Holden dealers could be entitled to more compensation than what has been offered by General Motors.

Mr Gardini has in the past consulted to Holden dealers and is a former partner at HWL Ebsworth, the law firm appointed by the Holden Dealer Council during compensation negotiations with General Motors.

Mr Gardini told CarAdvice: “The dealer council appears to be following the breadcrumbs General Motors has left in Europe and other exited markets. If they’re able to prove General Motors knew Holden was always on the chopping block, the compensation could be 10 times (higher than) what is being reported, if unconscionable conduct was proven.”

Mr Gardini added: “If legal proceedings are commenced in the United States, punitive damages would be available in addition to damages for economic loss.”


General Motors and Holden have consistently stated that the compensation offer to dealers is fair, based on the average profit per vehicle over a period of time when the business was more lucrative, and that additional allowances have been made for dealers who invested in showrooms and infrastructure in the lead-up to the shutdown announcement.

Last week, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) said it was monitoring the Holden closure.

ACCC Chairman Rod Sims told CarAdvice: “We are in the very early stages, but certainly it is something that is potentially very serious.”

Mr Sims said the ACCC has not “formed any views, but we most certainly will look at it in relation to any potential breaches of Australian Consumer Law and the franchising code”.

Holden says it will continue to have a presence in Australia – even after its showrooms close by the end of 2020 – and plans to support the approximately 2 million Holdens remaining on local roads.

An office with about 200 Holden staff will support service, parts, warranty and safety recalls for "at least 10 years".

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

However, an expert in automotive franchise agreements, Bob Gardini, says there is a possibility Holden dealers could be entitled to more compensation than what has been offered by General Motors.

That's an awful lot of words to essentially say its only a possibility.

Anyone who invested large amounts of money in the Holden brand post announcement that Elizabeth was closing is a bloody idiot and should be slapped accordingly....possibly

[BAWITHLOT]

Originally Posted by arronm

Thead needs more TURBO.....

Here you go, more turbo!

[MITCHAY]

**** GM, I hope the Holden dealers take them to the cleaners if that is possible. Pay your dues and then get ****ed!

[hayseed]

I find It hilarious the the Dealers "leak" every Memo & bit of correspondence at the first Opportunity, Trying to play the Sympathy Card...

Yet at the end of the day, It will ALL hinge on what the early termination Clauses in their Franchise Agreement (That they Signed & agreed to be Bound By) say...Nothing More, Nothing Less..

I find It rather ironic that There's No "Leaked" Copy of The Franchise agreement Doing the Rounds...

[smoo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Just to add a bit of nostalgia to the thread, been looking over the old brochures I have.

image

image

Some would say shes improved with age.
No doubt a pic of a pannos headlining will strike up dozens of cases of deja vu.



To carry on the nostalgia, I coincidentally watched this last night. Brutal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaI0BjaFoTI

[Cheech]

Is that a young Pauline Hanson !!!!

[turbo4]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Yet at the end of the day, It will ALL hinge on what the early termination Clauses in their Franchise Agreement (That they Signed & agreed to be Bound By) say...Nothing More, Nothing Less..

I'd say that's why they would be trying to prove that GMH made the agreement while knowing that there was no future for the brand. I'm sure that would be cause for a massive lawsuit(that will make some lawyers a whole heap of money)

[MercuryT]

Originally Posted by Cheech

Is that a young Pauline Hanson !!!!

Lol. That literally was my first thought before I read your post!

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by smoo

Some would say shes improved with age.
No doubt a pic of a pannos headlining will strike up dozens of cases of deja vu.

image

To carry on the nostalgia, I coincidentally watched this last night. Brutal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaI0BjaFoTI

Nice headlights and Caprice full grille. Might as well post this here Northern Sydney van scene.

https://youtu.be/XiEhle5Lifs

[vbvbvb088]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Just to add a bit of nostalgia to the thread, been looking over the old brochures I have.

image

image

As a kid I had the brochure at base where 6 cars on grass. I also had the one where the Gemini was updated. Interestingly an artist had drawn the revised Gemini front on same photo. About 86 and I still remember this to this day....

[Bossxr8]

This is still dragging on.


https://www.caradvice.com.au/849851/...-holden-for-1/


In an extraordinary speech in federal parliament, a senator accused General Motors of using the coronavirus crisis to stonewall dealers – then offered to buy the Holden brand for $1.

Queensland Senator James McGrath offered to buy the Holden brand from US car giant General Motors for $1 in an extraordinary speech in federal parliament last night.

Senator McGrath also accused General Motors of using the global coronavirus crisis to prolong compensation negotiations with Holden dealers, after announcing in February it would axe the iconic Australian car brand by the end of this year.

The deputy government whip in the Senate repeated his controversial comments from earlier in the year, alleging “General Motors acted with the ethics of a … purse snatcher”, by making the sudden announcement to close 203 Holden showrooms operated by 185 dealers nationally.

Senator McGrath added: “And nothing I have heard from Holden dealers throughout Australia since then has changed my view or that of my colleagues in this parliament”.

“Mary Barra … who has a pay package in the tens of millions of dollars, is sending Australian families to the wall,” he said.

According to a report by the Bloomberg news agency, Ms Barra received $US21.6 million in 2019, about $US240,000 less than she earned in 2018 – but still “roughly 203 times the average GM employee’s (salary package) of $US106,715”.

Senator McGrath then told federal parliament: “Ms Barra is now using coronavirus as an alibi for the worst corporate behaviour. It now appears General Motors (is) privately attempting to put the screws to these Holden franchisees, forcing timelines and attempting to make dealers sign up to further oppressive agreements as part of settlements, and to stretch out payments”.

The Senator then blasted: “Shame on you General Motors, shame on you Ms Barra and your American legal chicanery”.

“To put it bluntly, General Motors (is) trying to sneak under the cover of COVID-19 to disappear into the night and leave Australian businesses stranded after an 89-year one-night stand,” said Senator McGrath, referring to GM's presence in Australia since 1931, before it operated under the Holden name from 1948 (pictured below).

When contacted for comment after last night’s explosive speech, a representative for General Motors Holden repeated the company’s earlier statement: “GM Holden firmly believes the compensation offer to its dealers is fair, and strongly disagrees with any assertion that it has acted improperly. We remain open to meet for a constructive purpose with dealers.”

Last week, General Motors broke its silence over the negotiations, hit back at claims its initial compensation offer to Holden dealers is unfair, and said accusations of unconscionable and misleading conduct are “baseless”, “plainly wrong”, and “unsupported by fact or law”.

General Motors said the claims by dealers are based on “a bizarre and illogical argument that GM has secretly planned to shut down Holden since at least 2015, but made various significant investments in programs, plans and strategies to support and promote Holden in order to mislead dealers into thinking that there was no secret plan to shut down Holden”.

Last night, Senator McGrath said any delaying tactics used during the negotiations would be “an unforgivable stance for General Motors to be taking, particularly at a time when the Australian economy and businesses (are) managing the economic shock of the current (COVID-19) pandemic”.

“I’m very concerned at the apparent stonewalling by General Motors in regards to what should be good faith commercial negotiations with its dealers, in relation to their exit from the Australian market,” said Senator McGrath. “General Motors (has) promised the earth and given a bucket of sand.”

Then, in a surprising turn in the speech, Senator McGrath said: “General Motors may think the rich history of the Holden brand is worthless, but I think it’s priceless. If General Motors (thinks) the brand is worth nothing then hand the brand back to Australia. Give it back to the Holden dealers. Indeed, I’m happy to purchase the Holden brand off General Motors for a dollar. I will send you Ms Barra a dollar in the post and you can give us the Holden brand back and we will give it to the Holden dealers.”

Senator McGrath added: “The decision by General Motors to discontinue Holden operations in Australia is their prerogative. But they must do so responsibly and in a manner that is fair to the very people that has enabled the company to operate in the Australian marketplace.”

He continued: “General Motors (needs) to understand that what they’re offering dealers in compensation for killing the brand is just not good enough.”

Senator McGrath said a fair compensation offer from General Motors to Holden dealers – after announcing the end of their franchise agreements almost three years early – was “about the livelihood of people right across the country, particularly in regional areas. It’s not just about dealers and franchisees that are impacted by the decision, it’s about the mechanics, the allied trades, the owners of thousands of vehicles.”

There are still approximately 2 million Holden cars on Australian roads and General Motors has pledged to retain a staff of 200 people to support service, parts, warranty claims and recalls for “at least” the next 10 years.

[BENT_8]

You must be stoked...or obsessed.

[Sprintey]

I'd buy that for a dollar!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYdpy9ShoVU

[Sprintey]

Perhaps I could then put the lion badge on the mighty 6000 SUX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJuABtjlIWU

[Sprintey]

Or branch into robotics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFvqDaFpXeM

[GasoLane]

Whilst B grade films might be comical they have nothing to do with this thread, try to stay on topic.