New IR changes to take effect - Page 4

svo347 · 28-03-2006, 04:38 PM

ok copy and pasters
An admission by the federal government that workers can be sacked because of a personality clash with their boss is "breathtaking", says the nation's peak union body.

Workplace Relations Minister Kevin Andrews told ABC television a boss could fire an employee if there was a clash of personalities under the new industrial relations system.Mr Andrews told Lateline a boss could now sack a worker if they did not like them.

"That's right, in a smaller business and this is what we believe is a balance between the capital investment I suppose that one puts into a small business," he said."But Kevin Andrews is saying unless you conform to the type of person your boss might want you to be it is quite legitimate for you to be done of out a job.
Mainly....
We've already had calls from people whose jobs have been terminated and or people who have been told that their job is still available but for less pay,"

Outbackjack · 28-03-2006, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Des

That's a big "if"....There's no difference between either party for most voters anymore. Most people now vote by who the leader is, (I've asked around everytime an election comes up, "Don't tell me who, but why did you vote for "X" party?"). Labour have not had a popular leader in a long time, so it's either Johnny or some clown who doesn't appear to be able to run a choko vine over an outhouse....

I would have to agree with this. But this new legislation is going to hit LOTS of people from right across the social spectrum. This by itself might turn enough people against JBJ to vote for "the drovers dog". I wonder how many liberal/national back benchers are getting nervous? And so they should.

nugget378 · 28-03-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluefreak

I'm an AWU member, they have done nothing but bend over and meet the demands of my employer... Under their watchful eye, our conditions have slowly been erroded, we lost OT, public hols, first aider pay and a host of other things... Boy am I payed up and proud...

:

The AWU have been an employer advocate masquerading as a union for 20 years or more

rodderz · 28-03-2006, 05:20 PM

For myself it all sounds confusing as to whats what, typical of the government to do things this way, similar to all the GST policies etc.

I have just left an employer to start my own business so when I start hiring people in a few months time I will have to be up to scratch on all this. But, for me I believe I will remain in the old school, I will give employees a fair chance, help them where I can, be leniant and not be over strict when they need time off etc. My previous boss was like this and it worked great. If there comes a time where an employee isnt pulling his/her weight, they will receive warnings and if after a few weeks they dont improve, they get shown the door. It's only fair

In a way I'm a bit undecided about these new laws, I cant imagine it being very good for employees, they will always be on their toes when approaching a new job (they should be anyway), but they will be constantly nervous about nasty employers. That can work the other way too, though. Employers may have trouble getting rid of problem employees that are willing to take them to court. It's a pity there is such a difference in all members of society, some people easy-going, some not and it causes conflict from time to time. Maybe that is the root of the problem, a lot of people cant work together and wont give an inch.

As for unions I have been in the cfmeu before (had to because of a job site) but found them all to be a bit arrogant and members were taking advantage of the system in being very slack at work (tradies), but on the other hand they can help workers out in big businesses who may be changing company policies to screw the workers

4.9 EF Futura · 28-03-2006, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svo347

ok copy and pasters
An admission by the federal government that workers can be sacked because of a personality clash with their boss is "breathtaking", says the nation's peak union body.

Workplace Relations Minister Kevin Andrews told ABC television a boss could fire an employee if there was a clash of personalities under the new industrial relations system.Mr Andrews told Lateline a boss could now sack a worker if they did not like them.

"That's right, in a smaller business and this is what we believe is a balance between the capital investment I suppose that one puts into a small business," he said."But Kevin Andrews is saying unless you conform to the type of person your boss might want you to be it is quite legitimate for you to be done of out a job.
Mainly....
We've already had calls from people whose jobs have been terminated and or people who have been told that their job is still available but for less pay,"

Yes, I - and i hope a lot of australians - watched the interview with kevin andrews last night. The fact that the peak union body would refer to the statement as a) an admission and b) breathtaking im sure comes as little/no suprise.

Obviously the ACTU representative (they were sharan's comments, yes?) is privvy to all sorts of information to which it would be inappropriate to divulge - i note its quite ok for them to drop such 'hints' and unsubstantiated claims in the same breath as questioning the government's transparency but that's a different topic.... either way, i'll leave the claims which sharan made last night well alone...

Im not sure what is so suprising about the statement by Kevin Andrews?? We're talking about an organisation < 100 employees here i.e. a small business. A disruptive relationship between an employee of a small business and his/her boss is obviously going to have a severe impact on the output of said employee. Why should the boss of said small business tolerate an employee putting his/her capital investment at risk? This is the whole idea of the changes to the unfair dismissal laws. It would be interesting to hear from a small business owner/manger on the topic...

As has been pointed out by the left many times in this thread, we're talking about money making at the end of the day, yes? So if you're a productive worker then chances are your boss isnt going to replace you with a less productive worker purely because the less-productive worker is easier to get along with. Are we having a tea party or are we running a business?

"Conform to the type of person your boss might want"... what, a productive worker? That's just asking a bit much isnt it... i should have my right to be a slack sh*t protected by IR legislation... /end sarcasm.

SpoolMan · 28-03-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodderz

For myself it all sounds confusing as to whats what, typical of the government to do things this way, similar to all the GST policies etc.

I have just left an employer to start my own business so when I start hiring people in a few months time I will have to be up to scratch on all this. But, for me I believe I will remain in the old school, I will give employees a fair chance, help them where I can, be leniant and not be over strict when they need time off etc. My previous boss was like this and it worked great.

Rodderz i would work for you.
You wouldn't take to much convincing, to take off for some light refrechments... :baby bott

:
ps: none of that pale ale stuff tho

:

rodderz · 28-03-2006, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Rodderz i would work for you.
You wouldn't take to much convincing, to take off for some light refrechments... :baby bott

:
ps: none of that pale ale stuff tho

:

Got a rock wall to build tomorrow and it's going to be warm again, you can start at 6am build the wall and I'll sit in the shade with the esky. Finish by lunch or your sacked...lol

p.s. amber ale is the better drop

:

svo347 · 28-03-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

As has been pointed out by the left many times in this
"Conform to the type of person your boss might want"... what, a productive worker? That's just asking a bit much isnt it... i should have my right to be a slack sh*t protected by IR legislation... /end sarcasm.

well far be it from me and mold into something that im not, I too am a productive worker but when the time comes and i have to work a reasonable amount of unpaid overtime, or get forced to take longer hours at minimal pay or better still get axed for working with my company for 15 years, just to avoid any payments, Mate get a look up the front, cause thats where ill be standing

superpursuit83 · 28-03-2006, 05:50 PM

Are there realy that many bad bosses out there? I dont want to come across the wrong way, but the new IR laws have not affected me at all. But I have always been self employed and my crew is my family. Without them I would be nothing. I have 10 guys and gals now working for me now and they have actually said its great. I feel I have an obligation to support them at all times because they support me, and they have family, mortgage etc. If theres not enough work for them I have too find more, simple

Good luck to all you guys out there who have bosses that just want to screw you over and pay peanuts. Its all talk on a skills shortage and they still want to rip some of you off. It will come back around and bite them soon enough. I said 10 years ago in the WA recession we would not have any good tradesman because no one was employing apprentices, and look what happened now.
If you look at the long term local, old school companys that are doing well you will probably find a happy work enviroment.

But on the other hand as a boss it has been too hard to sack that one guy that was destroying your years of hard earned reputation. Which also affects the good guys, by decreasing workload etc.
I agree they have gone too far but some changes were required

Hunter · 28-03-2006, 07:25 PM

No offence but some of you are being rather naive if you think a fair number of employer's won't take advantage of the new legislation for their benefit. Additionally and interestingly, the only people who will truly benefit out of the new legislation are those are selling their services as self-prescribed "workchoices experts"...

BTW, right now I earn about $30,000 a year in IT. I fill the job of at least three people and am seriously overworked. Overtime pay is something I might see once every six months - I think it depends on whether or not the boss needs a new plasma tv or something. I haven't yet worked it out. Maybe if I help out with the shopping and get a better deal on the plasma tv I might get my OT pay. Who knows really. I'm just a dumb worker, I'm not entitled to a brain or decent conditions.

used:

Anyway, as I mentioned before, I have a potential government job (pretty sweet one too) lined up and I'm just waiting on it all to be officialised so here's hoping eh!

I pity the rest of you!

Bucknaked · 28-03-2006, 08:28 PM

I work for government. Unlike many departments, we arn't on idividual workplace agreements. We have an Agency Agreement. I am 2 levels away from individual. At the moment our current agreement goes until June next year. Who knows what will happen after that. But at the moment the ones being offered individual agreements are told they are not obliged to sign. New staff must go on the individual agreement. existing staff when promoted have the option. We have been told that we are about to increase Australia wide a lot of new jobs. First up is 500 jobs I beleive. More to come.

**ebxr8240** · 28-03-2006, 08:34 PM

Anyone watched Boyd Coddingtons American Hot Rod??
They have sacked 1/3 of there stuff for answering back, not ringing in when off sick for one day..Leaving the rest of staff so bussy they can't finish there projects on time..I see NO P/R between Boyd and his staff other being able to finish a car off in 6 weeks where normally it takes 6 months...
This workshop is close to the rest of staff walking out!!! Mainly due to there work load...
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/am...canhotrod.html
Totally different to Rides where they joke around with each other...

superpursuit83 · 28-03-2006, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

No offence but some of you are being rather naive if you think a fair number of employer's won't take advantage of the new legislation for their benefit. Additionally and interestingly, the only people who will truly benefit out of the new legislation are those are selling their services as self-prescribed "workchoices experts"...

BTW, right now I earn about $30,000 a year in IT. I fill the job of at least three people and am seriously overworked. Overtime pay is something I might see once every six months - I think it depends on whether or not the boss needs a new plasma tv or something. I haven't yet worked it out. Maybe if I help out with the shopping and get a better deal on the plasma tv I might get my OT pay. Who knows really. I'm just a dumb worker, I'm not entitled to a brain or decent conditions.

used:

Anyway, as I mentioned before, I have a potential government job (pretty sweet one too) lined up and I'm just waiting on it all to be officialised so here's hoping eh!

I pity the rest of you!

As I said mate I have never had an interview and have never lost a job, and I have been self employed for a long time now. So I am Naive, I know that. Good luck everyone.

John

cedric · 28-03-2006, 08:39 PM

i am self enployed chippy and concreter have been for 4 years . before that i worked for 3 builders .i work hard, show up and never steal anything i have never been sacked and am offered work every time i see them .if you work hard your boss would be hurting theirself by sacking you and if they do go and get another job .if i could find decent hard working blokes i would employ them and give them good money. THE ONLY PEOPLE WORRIED ABOUT THIS ARE PEOLE WHO DON'T WORK HARD ENOUGH BECAUSE IF YOU DO YOU ARE BEST WAY FOR YOUR BOSS TO MAKE MONEY

svo347 · 28-03-2006, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cedric

i am self enployed chippy and concreter have been for 4 years . before that i worked for 3 builders .i work hard, show up and never steal anything i have never been sacked and am offered work every time i see them .if you work hard your boss would be hurting theirself by sacking you and if they do go and get another job .if i could find decent hard working blokes i would employ them and give them good money. THE ONLY PEOPLE WORRIED ABOUT THIS ARE PEOLE WHO DON'T WORK HARD ENOUGH BECAUSE IF YOU DO YOU ARE BEST WAY FOR YOUR BOSS TO MAKE MONEY

Fair enuff mate but if a guy could come along and offer his services for 3/4 of what you get paid, still THINK YOU ARE SAFE

cedric · 28-03-2006, 09:15 PM

i probably don't relise what other peoples employment is like but i know for sure that any one who works hard with their hands and back will never have the slightest worry getting big money and lots of work. i think half the problem is every body wants the office jobs and so they are at employers mercy and no one wants to do the hard labour so the emloyers are at the workers mercy. any body on here who wants good money and job stability go out and get a trade .[ be careful though you might get dirty or even brake a fingernail ]

MO · 28-03-2006, 09:22 PM

Good point cedric...however I think most ppl don't like the apprentice wage..which is a pity because at the end of their time they're at least $50,000 ahead of the uni grad and don't have a HECS fee.

Sourbastard · 28-03-2006, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cedric

THE ONLY PEOPLE WORRIED ABOUT THIS ARE PEOLE WHO DON'T WORK HARD ENOUGH BECAUSE IF YOU DO YOU ARE BEST WAY FOR YOUR BOSS TO MAKE MONEY

Rubbish. You only keep your job for as long as you have customers and/or work to do. You can work hard, you can work well, but if your employer makes bad business decisions, all the hard work in the world wont keep your job when the customers dont walk in the door.

As to people who are concerned about this legislation, we should be worried about EVERY piece of legislation that is penned and passed. Unless you want to just switch your brain off and take a nap while the country is run into the ground by the souless little goblins known as politicians.

mik · 28-03-2006, 09:46 PM

plenty of people out there that work hard cedric,..... and still get the shaft, and if they had any rights to stop them getting shafted they are quickly dissapearing.

MO · 28-03-2006, 09:53 PM

Go SB.....once again the nail has been hit on the head.

Falchoon · 28-03-2006, 10:00 PM

In my "blue collar" job I rely quite heavily on OT to clear a decent wage (maybe still not a decent wage, but enough to get by on). My base wage is gross $544 per week (about $430 nett). This is crap money, so I work as much OT as possible to make ends meet. Quite often directives come from senior management that too much OT is being done and we must cut back. But they still expect all the work to be done even though we are working our @rses off just to get it done with the OT, let alone try and do it working 10 less hours per week! NFI some people. OT is optional, most people opt not to do it, don't know how they make ends meet. Probably lucky for me they don't or there would be less OT available for me.

I am sure that at some stage in the not to distant future they will trot out with AWAs stating that extra time will only be paid at normal time. This will ИИИИ me. No good saying if I don't like it then apply for another job, all employers will be doing it. As has already been said why would employers pay more than they are legally obliged to?

Already we are getting time in lieu of some public holidays (hour for hour, not 1 1/2 or 2 like you should be getting). My previous job was the same (work weekend and get two weekdays of in lieu) but I was not directly involved because there was no OT required in my position.

When I started the job I was on a three month probation, if I wasn't up to scratch, I would be shown the door or my probation extended.

Govt jobs are the same. You are on a 3 month probation for these as well. I had a govt job for 15 years. They used to be jobs for life but these days they are no more secure than private enterprise jobs. After 10 years I was made "redundant" because I had a personality clash with my boss (that's how they get around unfair dismissal laws), I was lucky enough to get another job with the same govt mob but in a different area. This lasted 5 years until I was made "redundant" again but this time no suitable redeployment opportunties were forthcoming so I took the money and decided to take my chances (and a pay cut) in the private sector.

Peter Garrett has some lyrics that are quite appropriate to this subject - "the rich get richer, the poor get the picture"

I tried getting some more education so I could get a better job. I started doing an accounting degree. It started out ok but after about six months I was struggling both with the workload (working 6 days and studying until midnight 7 days) and the financial aspect of paying for the course and all the textbooks. And there was no guarantee that if/when I completed my studies that there would be a job available. Work was not going to pay me any extra in my then current (accounts payable) job, but they did give me time off to attend study (something that might be scrapped with the new workplace laws?). I ended up dropping out.

If these new workplace laws are not going to force the price of goods down to enable Aust to compete with prices of imported goods then what is the point of them? To make even more people unemployed?

vanessa0305 · 28-03-2006, 10:06 PM

Ok My hubby rocked up for work on Monday morning already for another hard day of shoveling and cleaning up pig sh-t like he does everyday. He already earns the lowest wage possible infact the lowering of the minimum wage is higher than what he was earning. Only to find out he has been sacked....the bosses said to him, we don't have to give you a reason and we don't have to give you notice. So my hubby with a family of 6 to take care of is out of work. Not because he doesn't do his job. Not because he isn't a hard worker but because he can't do the job of 2 people (there are supposed to be 5 in his area and for the last 4 months there have been 3 and they are falling behind) and because he doesn't have very good people skills (hence why he works shoveling pig sh-t to start with). Thanks little Johnny Well bloody done. And you wonder why people in the country end up moving to the city. Where on earth is he going to get another job out here?

pauljh74 · 28-03-2006, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

A disruptive relationship between an employee of a small business and his/her boss is obviously going to have a severe impact on the output of said employee. Why should the boss of said small business tolerate an employee putting his/her capital investment at risk? This is the whole idea of the changes to the unfair dismissal laws.

What if the boss is the problem? An example is when all the other employees hate the boss because he is incompetent and/or arrogant, but the one worker who also does his job well butts heads with him occasionally. There are some bosses out there who are so insecure that they will make an example of that person "to keep the others in line". I've witnessed bosses who have held grudges over trivial things against others and don't like their ego threatened. I've presented what I believe were better alternatives to their suggestions and they were flat out ignored with no logical explanation because the manager wanted to be seen to make the decision. In the end the task was completed less efficiently - I had to do more work than needed to complete the task.

As for the theory that if you work hard you will get rewarded with higher pay - there's already alot of people who work for a salary and don't get paid overtime that get rewarded with.... more work and no extra pay.
Smaller organisations with decent bosses will want to keep their workers happy and pay them accordingly. Larger organisations will have some distant manager make a decision to push workers off awards onto workplace agreements with less conditions for no extra pay. Can't do that you say? When overtime comes up, who do you think gets it? The higher paid award workers or the AWA workers? Suddenly a casual worker on the award starts getting less shifts compared to others. The manager who just worries about the numbers doesn't care if you work well, just how much you cost.

Ghiadude · 28-03-2006, 10:20 PM

i hope your hubby finds a job soon dude.

Noddy · 28-03-2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanessa0305

Ok My hubby rocked up for work on Monday morning already for another hard day of shoveling and cleaning up pig sh-t like he does everyday. He already earns the lowest wage possible infact the lowering of the minimum wage is higher than what he was earning. Only to find out he has been sacked....the bosses said to him, we don't have to give you a reason and we don't have to give you notice. So my hubby with a family of 6 to take care of is out of work. Not because he doesn't do his job. Not because he isn't a hard worker but because he can't do the job of 2 people (there are supposed to be 5 in his area and for the last 4 months there have been 3 and they are falling behind) and because he doesn't have very good people skills (hence why he works shoveling pig sh-t to start with). Thanks little Johnny Well bloody done. And you wonder why people in the country end up moving to the city. Where on earth is he going to get another job out here?

nuff said.

brenx · 28-03-2006, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauljh74

What if the boss is the problem? An example is when all the other employees hate the boss because he is incompetent and/or arrogant, but the one worker who also does his job well butts heads with him occasionally. There are some bosses out there who are so insecure that they will make an example of that person "to keep the others in line". I've witnessed bosses who have held grudges over trivial things against others and don't like their ego threatened. I've presented what I believe were better alternatives to their suggestions and they were flat out ignored with no logical explanation because the manager wanted to be seen to make the decision. In the end the task was completed less efficiently - I had to do more work than needed to complete the task.

Spot on. In my field of work it's a boss's past time (hating employees). I've met at least 12-15 in my 10 years. Some have even been sacked. Some have even been sued. I guess thats what happens when the companies workforce is 90% women? I eventually found a workplace that was 100% male run. Guess what? No issues for 2 years.

Imagine if these laws were around when I was hated by the boss. I would have been sacked for nothing more than a personal grudge against myself. I'm the type of person who always shows up for work, always hangs back yet when I show up for work 5 minutes late I cop crap? What about all the free time they have out of me? I quickly remind them ;) I'm due to long service in 2 weeks. I've been working for the state gov't 2 weeks short of 10 years. I honestly think I work in one of the few jobs that you actually get penalised for taking holidays or long service. My wage drops by $300pf for taking recreational leave (18% loading). I loose $800pf for taking long service leave. Short story is I can't afford to take my long service leave as my jobs hours are penalty based. I work 24/7. I could probably earn more working afternoon shift @ a Coles/Myer wharehouse? As my afternoon and night shifts get payed at nothing but day standard rates.

My wife works in the same field but hopefully she has got herself in a position to get a 9-5 office job in the same company. I'll find out soon enough. It'll be a blessing in disquise if she has.

svo347 · 28-03-2006, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cedric

i probably don't relise what other peoples employment is like but i know for sure that any one who works hard with their hands and back will never have the slightest worry getting big money and lots of work. i think half the problem is every body wants the office jobs and so they are at employers mercy and no one wants to do the hard labour so the emloyers are at the workers mercy. any body on here who wants good money and job stability go out and get a trade .[ be careful though you might get dirty or even brake a fingernail ]

Yep I have a trade..... No broken nail here tho...
Counting to ten cause im FIRED UP...

out:

svo347 · 28-03-2006, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanessa0305

Ok My hubby rocked up for work on Monday morning already for another hard day of shoveling and cleaning up pig sh-t like he does everyday. He already earns the lowest wage possible infact the lowering of the minimum wage is higher than what he was earning. Only to find out he has been sacked....the bosses said to him, we don't have to give you a reason and we don't have to give you notice. So my hubby with a family of 6 to take care of is out of work. Not because he doesn't do his job. Not because he isn't a hard worker but because he can't do the job of 2 people (there are supposed to be 5 in his area and for the last 4 months there have been 3 and they are falling behind) and because he doesn't have very good people skills (hence why he works shoveling pig sh-t to start with). Thanks little Johnny Well bloody done. And you wonder why people in the country end up moving to the city. Where on earth is he going to get another job out here?

Sorry to read that Nessy.... Where bouts are you guys located...

pks54 · 28-03-2006, 11:25 PM

My 2c .. because this will be my pay soon.. hopefully it will not be that bad....
seriously this new ir is crap .. hundreds of years ago ppl went went to work at sun up to sun down and work liked slaves. make no mistake times are ok at the moment. humans will always exploit other humans. I think the real effects are more like 10 years away and beyond(you will then see the real meaning of living in "the rat race". i believe in unions, because this is when the little ppl can stand up.
the idea is a better quality of life and not work for peanuts as others do in other countries.... anyway i can go on just like ebveryone else....
good luck everyone that is an employee.... you will need it

Hunter · 28-03-2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brenx

I'm the type of person who always shows up for work, always hangs back yet when I show up for work 5 minutes late I cop crap?

Haha I get this too!!! I have to drive about 35 odd kms to work each morning. The traffic on the motorway is like my last GF... unpredictable, unstable and dangerous. Anyway sometimes it can take well over an hour and a half to get to work... I cop it big time if I'm even more than a minute late. And I always leave work late. Rarely do I leave on time of an afternoon. Maybe once a month. The boss is reeeeaall big on time keeping when its HER time but not when its MY time. I reckon if I added up all my unpaid O/T... I'd be owed several thou.

The boss treats you like a slacker if you want to leave early and god forbid take one of your legally entitled days off!! I have to give nearly a months notice to take a day off!! Try organising your personal life when you cannot do anything during business hours. I've often had to go to the bank and ended up blowing my entire lunch break because that's the only time I can go to the bank. And god forbid I tried to have a life! Work is half the reason I'm not in a relationship now. No bloody time and too much stress caused by understaffing, underfunding, poor quality equipment and the list goes on.

PS I haven't been able to get my Falcon's tranny service because well... you guessed it... can't time to take the bloody car down to a transmission service place!! If I tried to take a day off now (real busy) I'd be told to go do something with myself.