Single use plastic bag ban by Government

[aussiblue]

Time to lighten up https://www.facebook.com/BBCScotland...6560876040332/

[aussiblue]

It's rational to think it will make difference similar to the introduction of a 5p fee for bags made in the UK per https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44661953

"An example: the beach clean-ups around the UK have demonstrated the impact of the 5p plastic bag charge.

"Since that charge came in, there's been a 40% reduction in plastic bags found on beaches. And you only know that because lots of people have been collecting data. That helps shore up policy."

[snap0964]

Originally Posted by Maka

i hear shares in calico bags are about to skyrocket lol!

A bag you can wash - what a good idea

Originally Posted by Cav

Why doesn't the QLD Govmint ban all plastic bags if they believe their own spin?

I dont know why this hasn't been handled Federally? Would save a lot of admin you'd think.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by snap0964

A bag you can wash - what a good idea
I dont know why this hasn't been handled Federally? Would save a lot of admin you'd think.

NSW has not banned single use plastic bags.

I wonder how long they can hang out before the mob are baying for blood.

[Cav]

I had to go to the local mall today and my wife didn't remind me to take a bag.

I only had to get a couple of things but managed to get a free Woolies placky bag. The one with the water melon on it made in China.

It seems there are a lot of people upset about the ban.

As I said to one bloke - the bag ban threatens my masculinity.

I now have to go to the shops carrying a bag just like a sheila.

[paule11]

Originally Posted by burnz

what a load of crap!!

remove the filters problem solved, fully bio degradable..

put ash trays back in cars,
put ash trays back in rubbish bin,
put ash trays back out side of shops.

the government creates a problem then blames the populas.

years ago you got paid a deposit for your empty soda can/bottle..
now it just returns this year after a 35+yrs hiatus.

I was shocked back in the day when they stopped smoking on trains but had sharps containers in the toilets what message does that send kick you of for smoking but its ok to put your syringe in the container.

[Rallye Sport]

Single use bags must be evil, even the Somali militants are banning them
https://www.pedestrian.tv/news/al-sh...astic-bag-ban/

[George V]

Hi,

As per one of the previous posts, most of the plastic in the ocean comes from "less developed" countries with poor garbage management practices.

Fee plastic bag ban by supermarkets is more of a "the step in the right direction" with a feel good factor.

I do not mind stopping free plastic bags, but, would also expect these supermarket to adopt to Aldi style checkouts and Aldi style prices.


Cheers,
George V

[prydey]

Originally Posted by George V

but, would also expect these supermarket to adopt to Aldi style checkouts and Aldi style prices.

I don't see any difference in price between aldi and woollies. (I don't have a coles handy). If you compare like for like, there is little difference. The only area Aldi really differentiate themselves is not having the range and variety. Most stuff is sold as the only option, and is packaged to appear like a name brand product, but is an Aldi version of homebrand.

Aldi get touted as this big saviour, and alternative to the 'evil' coles/woollies duopoly, and yet they are exactly the same. foreign owned, looking for their slice of the pie.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Late to the party on this one, but a couple of points to add:

Someone mentioned earlier about biodegradable plastic bags. There is no such thing. All that happens is that the size of the plastic particles continues to reduce until such time as we have micro particles everywhere in our environment. We ingest a heap of this stuff through our food chain.

Have a watch of the ABC series War on Waste. Was a big insight for me and encouraged me to do something relatively simple that may have a big improvement on our future world. You can watch the first series here, whilst a second series is not far away from airing.

Cav, I understand your point, but doesn't it make sense that if you are going to start to tackle a huge problem, you start with those items that are considered by many as "single use" and therefore have the largest impact (energy and environmental damage per use). Seems to me that starting with single use items is a logical place to start.

For the multi use items, or for items that aren't practical for reuse, such as food packaging, you can recycle your soft plastics (anything that you can scrunch in your hand) at your nearest Coles store. More info here

And if you want an idea as to what practical use the recycled plastic has check out this story and this site.

Also check out this story about Henderson Island for the impact that plastics are having on our natural environment

The banning of the single use bags is not the be all and end all. It is just the start of an important journey.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Cav

I have a simple query.

Can someone tell me, using logical argument, why govmints ban single use plastic bags and what is the desired outcome they are trying to achieve?

I'll give you the actual answer:
There is a massive disconnect in Australia between "Greenies", "Green" Politicians, and "Green Voters."
Regardless of your political inclinations, this is an indisputable fact. (And yes, it probably exists in other politcal parties and movements, I'm not saying this to take a shot at them, just pointing out how it is.)

Love em or hate em, we all know what a Greenie is. They love nature, and are usually prepared to sacrifice to protect it. They tend to live in semi-rural
or last least suburban locations, grow their own organic vegies and "herbs", and generally try to limit their impact on the environment. More passionate examples are prone to lying in front of bull-dozers, etc.

Yet it is a mathematical fact that the majority of "Green" votes come from high-density inner-city areas, the most damaging and least natural form of human habitation. These voters are typically affluent, spoilt, and privileged.
And so yes, they feel guilty about their self-indulgent lifestyles.

Hence why most "Green" policies are actually directed at making these people feel better about their selfish consumer lifestyles. Recylcing and "sustainability" are their religion, but how much actual recycling do they do? NONE. The entire recycling system in Australia is about making it somebody else's problem. They put their crap in a bin with the right coloured lid, job done, problem solved, planet saved.

I've lived in developing countries, where open sewers/drains carry everything (including garbage) into rivers and out to sea. So yes, plastic bags are a problem.
In Australia the only way your plastic bag kills a dolphin, is if you carry it to the beach and throw it in. But, this is something that people can do to make themselves feel better.

In a way, its a bit like some religious cults. You tell people they have offended the Gods, but giving money/ sex/ obedience will appease the Gods, so they give and feel happier.

In a sense, its smart politics. If you focus on the truth, then its very depressing that the Chinese (and others) are poisoning the planet and there is nothing I can do to stop them, except refusing to buy their goods (which would see me naked and living in a cave). But tell me I can save the planet by the simple act of using reusable bags, and the dimwitted can be conned into happiness.

[jpblue1000]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...off-bali-video
JP

[Sabantien]

Originally Posted by paule11

I was shocked back in the day when they stopped smoking on trains but had sharps containers in the toilets what message does that send kick you of for smoking but its ok to put your syringe in the container.

Yeah man.
Those people with diabetes are monsters.

[zipping]

Originally Posted by data_mine

Reducing plastic waste is only a good thing. I hope no one will disagree with that.

I will disagree on the basis that the overall benefit to society is positive before the plastic is disposed of as waste.

1. Looking at the economics plastic is clearly the top economic solution to many problems very cheap to produce for the value they provide.

The plastics industry only consumes 4% of the world’s oil production as feedstock. The rest is used for energy and transport. The production of most plastic products is not energy intensive compared to metals, glass and paper.

Plastic products play a major role in saving and conserving energy and power safety. Here are some examples.

• 22% of an Airbus A380 double-decker aircraft is built with lightweight carbon fibre reinforced plastics, saving fuel and lowering operating costs by 15%
• 105kg of plastics, rather than traditional materials in a car weighing 1,000kg, makes possible a fuel saving of 750 litres over a lifespan of 90,000 miles. This reduces oil consumption by 12 million tonnes and consequently CO2 emissions by 30 million tonnes in the European Union.
• BMW in its 6 series Coupe uses a rear boot lid made of composites and thermoplastic front wings. This has saved 100 kilos in weight.
• Without plastics, packaging weight could increase by as much as 400%, production and energy costs could double and material wastage increase by 150%
• Renewable energies rely on plastics (pipes, solar panels, wind turbines, rotors)
• PVC-U double glazed windows and doors are essential for an energy efficient home. They have a minimum 35 years life and are easily maintained. The BRE’s Green Guide has given PVC-U windows an A rating
• Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) Insulation has a key role to play with the heating and cooling of buildings accounting for half of Europe’s total energy consumption
• Durable and flexible plastic pipes prevent leakage of valuable water. 772 miles of London cracked Victorian water mains are being replaced by blue plastic pipes
• Modern plastic processing machinery (injection moulding) use between 20%-50% less energy compared to 10 years ago. All electric machines would yield a 75% overall saving.
•Plastics do not conduct electricity so PVC is widely used to insulate wiring, while thermosets are used for switches, light fittings and handles
• A plastic carrier bag weighs six times less that alternative materials
• Use of plastic bottles rather than alternatives leads to savings of up to 40% on distribution fuel costs and saves on transport pollution.


2. Most waste ends in landfill. The number one issue with landfill is methane release https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landfill_gas

Clearly, plastic by not breaking down helps reduce methane gas in landfill and this is a good thing

3. Plastics have the advantage of a high strength-to-weight ratio, allowing minimal material usage (and low cost) in packaging design ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...STB20080304F3/ which illustrates the use of plastics and glass packaging for the same product). On average, plastic packaging accounts for between 1 and 3 per cent of the total product weight. For instance, it takes 2 g of plastic film to package 200 g of cheese; 1.5 l of liquid can be safely stored in a 38 g bottle and a tub containing 125 g of yoghurt weighs only 4.5 g. The ecological balance sheet of plastic packaging, i.e. the sum total of the corresponding energy consumption for production, transport and disposal and other effects on the environment, is often superior to that of competing materials. For example, in one study, in switching from gable-top milk cartons manufactured from a paper/aluminium/plastic composite to plastic pouches, the energy saving in production of the package was estimated to be 72 per cent, a 50 per cent saving in refrigeration space contributed to further energy savings and the waste stream to landfill was reduced by 90 per cent (API 1996).

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

In Australia the only way your plastic bag kills a dolphin, is if you carry it to the beach and throw it in. But, this is something that people can do to make themselves feel better.

Would you like to post up some evidence to support that claim?

Here's my (very quick search) evidence to support the contrary position.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Late to the party on this one, but a couple of points to add:

Someone mentioned earlier about biodegradable plastic bags. There is no such thing. All that happens is that the size of the plastic particles continues to reduce until such time as we have micro particles everywhere in our environment. We ingest a heap of this stuff through our food chain.

Have a watch of the ABC series War on Waste. Was a big insight for me and encouraged me to do something relatively simple that may have a big improvement on our future world. You can watch the first series here, whilst a second series is not far away from airing.

Cav, I understand your point, but doesn't it make sense that if you are going to start to tackle a huge problem, you start with those items that are considered by many as "single use" and therefore have the largest impact (energy and environmental damage per use). Seems to me that starting with single use items is a logical place to start.

For the multi use items, or for items that aren't practical for reuse, such as food packaging, you can recycle your soft plastics (anything that you can scrunch in your hand) at your nearest Coles store. More info here

And if you want an idea as to what practical use the recycled plastic has check out this story and this site.

Also check out this story about Henderson Island for the impact that plastics are having on our natural environment

The banning of the single use bags is not the be all and end all. It is just the start of an important journey.

Thanks for your considered response mate. Best response so far.

If this were just a first step then I would like the govmint to actually commit to that. I am concerned that this is just gesture politics

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by zipping

I will disagree on the basis that the overall benefit to society is positive before the plastic is disposed of as waste.

1. Looking at the economics plastic is clearly the top economic solution to many problems very cheap to produce for the value they provide.

The plastics industry only consumes 4% of the world’s oil production as feedstock. The rest is used for energy and transport. The production of most plastic products is not energy intensive compared to metals, glass and paper.

Plastic products play a major role in saving and conserving energy and power safety. Here are some examples.

• 22% of an Airbus A380 double-decker aircraft is built with lightweight carbon fibre reinforced plastics, saving fuel and lowering operating costs by 15%
• 105kg of plastics, rather than traditional materials in a car weighing 1,000kg, makes possible a fuel saving of 750 litres over a lifespan of 90,000 miles. This reduces oil consumption by 12 million tonnes and consequently CO2 emissions by 30 million tonnes in the European Union.
• BMW in its 6 series Coupe uses a rear boot lid made of composites and thermoplastic front wings. This has saved 100 kilos in weight.
• Without plastics, packaging weight could increase by as much as 400%, production and energy costs could double and material wastage increase by 150%
• Renewable energies rely on plastics (pipes, solar panels, wind turbines, rotors)
• PVC-U double glazed windows and doors are essential for an energy efficient home. They have a minimum 35 years life and are easily maintained. The BRE’s Green Guide has given PVC-U windows an A rating
• Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) Insulation has a key role to play with the heating and cooling of buildings accounting for half of Europe’s total energy consumption
• Durable and flexible plastic pipes prevent leakage of valuable water. 772 miles of London cracked Victorian water mains are being replaced by blue plastic pipes
• Modern plastic processing machinery (injection moulding) use between 20%-50% less energy compared to 10 years ago. All electric machines would yield a 75% overall saving.
•Plastics do not conduct electricity so PVC is widely used to insulate wiring, while thermosets are used for switches, light fittings and handles
• A plastic carrier bag weighs six times less that alternative materials
• Use of plastic bottles rather than alternatives leads to savings of up to 40% on distribution fuel costs and saves on transport pollution.


2. Most waste ends in landfill. The number one issue with landfill is methane release https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landfill_gas

Clearly, plastic by not breaking down helps reduce methane gas in landfill and this is a good thing

3. Plastics have the advantage of a high strength-to-weight ratio, allowing minimal material usage (and low cost) in packaging design ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...STB20080304F3/ which illustrates the use of plastics and glass packaging for the same product). On average, plastic packaging accounts for between 1 and 3 per cent of the total product weight. For instance, it takes 2 g of plastic film to package 200 g of cheese; 1.5 l of liquid can be safely stored in a 38 g bottle and a tub containing 125 g of yoghurt weighs only 4.5 g. The ecological balance sheet of plastic packaging, i.e. the sum total of the corresponding energy consumption for production, transport and disposal and other effects on the environment, is often superior to that of competing materials. For example, in one study, in switching from gable-top milk cartons manufactured from a paper/aluminium/plastic composite to plastic pouches, the energy saving in production of the package was estimated to be 72 per cent, a 50 per cent saving in refrigeration space contributed to further energy savings and the waste stream to landfill was reduced by 90 per cent (API 1996).

Hey zipping, some good info there. I don't disagree that plastic is a very versatile product (its versatility is both a blessing and a curse), but at the end of the day this fact is what worries me about our use of plastic. And we should look at a products entire life-cycle to understand how good or poor it is. Its a bit like saying a Prius is great for the environment because of the lower emissions are lower than an ice vehicle, but not considering the impact of battery production and disposal impacts.

Another way to look at plastic:
If you designed a vehicle for a single use, ie use it once and then dispose of it because its intended purpose is over, but that vehicle lived on for ever, then wouldn't you say that the item has been over-engineered? This is exactly the case with plastics!

The chemist who can find a way to return plastic back to its source ingredients will make themselves a fortune!

[zipping]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

The banning of the single use bags is not the be all and end all. It is just the start of an important journey.

Good post.

But a journey to where?

Man solves problems and plastics have been the solution to a whole range of problems, which is why plastics have proliferated.

I agree that it is a problem in the sea and we should do more on the world stage to try to prevent plastics finding their way into oceans. That said rubbish gathering on a remote island while not a good look is it actually causing that much harm? After all it can be gathered up and put in landfill with some effort.

The problem is this.

By demonising plastic and unleashing a propaganda war only looking at the downside to plastic we ignore all the benefits that plastics have provided in solving so many of our problems.

Banning plastics in any form confirms to those that say plastic is bad that they are correct and I don't think they are. This only encourages people intent on banning things that benefit society to move onto the next issue and as you say this is only the start.

[PG2]

I have always carried a couple of plastic shopping bags in the boot of the car for whatever reason (wet clothes, rubbish etc).

I was thinking this morning...

Can I take those bags shopping and re-use them?

And...

What sort of looks would I get from other shoppers walking back to the car carrying those bags with groceries in them?

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by prydey

I don't see any difference in price between aldi and woollies. (I don't have a coles handy). If you compare like for like, there is little difference. The only area Aldi really differentiate themselves is not having the range and variety. Most stuff is sold as the only option, and is packaged to appear like a name brand product, but is an Aldi version of homebrand.

Aldi get touted as this big saviour, and alternative to the 'evil' coles/woollies duopoly, and yet they are exactly the same. foreign owned, looking for their slice of the pie.

You can't be serious, Aldi prices generally are about one third to half of a comparable product.

Stuff that Coles and Woolies sell for $3 I regularly buy at Aldi for $1.

[aussiblue]

This is starting to sound a lot like the arguments that were around when unleaded petrol and catalytic converters were first legislated.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by PG2

I have always carried a couple of plastic shopping bags in the boot of the car for whatever reason (wet clothes, rubbish etc).

I was thinking this morning...

Can I take those bags shopping and re-use them?

And...

What sort of looks would I get from other shoppers walking back to the car carrying those bags with groceries in them?

Well they are a lot more environmentally friendly than the new bags you have to buy.

Problem is people are sheep and lack pretty much most of their independent thought processes.

[LG17]

Just read that Coles and Woolies are going to make close to $80 million a year profit n their 15c bags...

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by LG17

Just read that Coles and Woolies are going to make close to $80 million a year profit n their 15c bags...

Apparently tin foil for hats is huge too

[prydey]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

You can't be serious, Aldi prices generally are about one third to half of a comparable product.

Stuff that Coles and Woolies sell for $3 I regularly buy at Aldi for $1.

Name something.

[LG17]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Apparently tin foil for hats is huge too

You don't seriously think that they buy them for 15c...

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Cav

I am sick of govmints treating us like idiots and banning stuff that has no effect except to give them the high moral ground.

It is all about gesture politics that means nothing, achieves nothing and I have yet to meet someone who agrees that we should keep using single use plastic bags.

The reason I suspect is that people no longer think about what is happening. Add in a media that also has an agenda and we never have a proper debate on anything anymore where we exchange facts and logic to arrive at some point where all concerns are out in the open.

Are there any disadvantages in banning single use plastic bags?

Well how about this one ...

People will die.

Mention that to people and they just shrug.

That's right, they shrug.

Does this not mean that people care more about the environment and animals that they do about their fellow human beings.

A 2012 University of Pennsylvania study found San Francisco’s 2007 plastic bag ban killed people because reusable bags increased shoppers’ exposure to harmful bacteria that can infest them. “The San Francisco ban led to, conservatively, 5.4 annual additional deaths,” the authors concluded.

Don't believe me?

Here is the study
http://www.austincontrarian.com/file...-id2196481.pdf

Looks like it's been written for a school project.

Ask your friendly microbiologist to take a skin scraping. You will find all those bugs and about a million more.

Don't go to the dunny, it's an e-coli nightmare. But if you don't poo you die...

I bought a new chainsaw bar this morning, I'm still trying to work out why it was covered in plastic. Then I had to spend 10 minutes rummaging around for heavy duty scissors to get the crap off.
We have to start somewhere with this, it's out of control imo.

[DJR-351]

Thieves use tractor in supermarket ram-raid!

......"as well as the cash from the ATM's they stole every plastic bag they could get there hands on, police believe the stolen cash was secondary and the real target was the plastic bags which will no doubt appear on the black market in coming days".......

https://www.9news.com.au/national/20...rang-melbourne

[burnz]

Originally Posted by prydey

Name something.

I agree with your previous post, in current time..
but woollies/coles were dear until aldi moved in next door.

go to a woollies/coles with out aldi nearby and see the price difference.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by burnz

I agree with your previous post, in current time..
but woollies/coles were dear until aldi moved in next door.

go to a woollies/coles with out aldi nearby and see the price difference.

I guess a lot of people just need to hate things. I don't. I shop because I need to, and we use whatever supermarket has what we want/need. generally its a mix of aldi and woollies as there isn't a coles nearby. on the odd occasion its foodland.

any market where extra competition is added will see more competitive pricing.