Anyone been a victim of the IR laws?

[BENT_8]

Ok hands up those who recieved "Little Johnnies" baby bonus.
Ok now those who still think this Government aren't there to support families put your hands down.
I think it really works a little like this.
Productive man earns $20 an hour
New IR laws mean productive man now gets $15 an hour or no job
Short time after IRlaws introduced treasurer announces tax cuts which offsets loss from employer to certain extent.
Remembering productive man is early 20's to mid 40's, government offers huge bonuses to expand families and productive man recieves an extra 12 grand in 3 years for nothing more than doing what he likes best
Breeding....or practising anyway.
Deadbeats are removed from an honest mans job and a position is made available for a trained or skilled employee.
This is where it gets interesting.
If there is a lack of suitably skilled people in the area then the employer looks elsewhere.
slightly more complicated, yes
The cold light of day, most certainly

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

But over the nest 5 or 10 years there will be thousands of Joe's, with very little prospect of getting a job of any substance because their industries have been moved over seas.... Or they are now run in Australia by Mr Kai se Mings relatives. And of course Joe expects to be paid too much.

But the driver for this possibility is the history we have with a lop-sided IR system. Job's going over seas didn't start when the IR reforms came to the fore, for more than a decade we have been getting tech support or billing from Chennai or wherever else. On the note of our country's current wealth, don't forget that a shift in National debt to Personal Debt has helped out a lot too.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by GMH8TR

But the driver for this possibility is the history we have with a lop-sided IR system. Job's going over seas didn't start when the IR reforms came to the fore, for more than a decade we have been getting tech support or billing from Chennai or wherever else. On the note of our country's current wealth, don't forget that a shift in National debt to Personal Debt has helped out a lot too.

A bloo.dy MEN!
And why, because two decade's ago we didn't care for the future education of our kids.
Another remnant of a failed Government and no one can use off shore deals or economy to cover up that shamble

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Independant contractors will be some of the last to be affected.

I think Senior Management & Senior Sales Executives will be the last to be affected.

[Outbackjack]

A question. If these IR laws are so employer freindly, why are they now (the employers) falling over themselves to re-locate their jobs to China etc. Part of the answer is, bcause it is so easy to get rid of their Aussie eployees. What is the rest of the answer???

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by GMH8TR

I think Senior Management & Senior Sales Executives will be the last to be affected.

Yes, you are probably right.... Its going to be a hard job selling anything to a nation of low paid, unemployed workers.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Yes, you are probably right.... Its going to be a hard job selling anything to a nation of low paid, unemployed workers.

Lol, ride it to the end eh?

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by GMH8TR

Lol, ride it to the end eh?

PITA aren't I.... But I have spent hours researching the probable effects of these laws. The long term is ugly. The short term will be painfull. It is a social experiment driven by political idiology. Any idiology that is too far one way or the other will always be divisive.

Cheeers.....

[XAGSV8]

This is the way I think of the new IR system. Part of it was designed with globalization in mind(something in this day and age that can't be stopped). Without the new system jobs would be handed out overseas's instead of locally because it is cheaper. This system while it will disadvantage a small group of people by lessoning conditions will allow more jobs to stay local. Now unfortunalty we cannot have it both ways(big pay/conditions and keeping jobs here). Personally I think if there are company's out there abusing the system and employees they often are company's that do not last. Those union television ad's often are untruthful and if employers did what some of those ad's say they would be breaking the law(from my understanding an employer cannot change your current conditions unless your contract has expired. They cannot just call you into their office and make you sign a new one). Problem is us Australians have had it to good for many years and it is now coming back to bite us on the because Aussie company's are finding it to hard to compete with the world stage. Skills shortage is also a big problem. Where I work at one stage there were signs on the windows for months saying come in and apply but nobody seems to want a job. All we got was the trash of society which were unemployable.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

A question. If these IR laws are so employer freindly, why are they now (the employers) falling over themselves to re-locate their jobs to China etc. Part of the answer is, bcause it is so easy to get rid of their Aussie eployees. What is the rest of the answer???

Proberbly because the majority of our universities etc. are full of intelligent asians on short term visa's just waiting to go home to their families and a new job with an Australian company.
If you were an employer would you want the most productive people working for you?

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by GMH8TR

I think Senior Management & Senior Sales Executives will be the last to be affected.

Ever been lucky enough to be involved with a takeover/merger? Management are the first heads to roll... those jobs can now be performed by head office. Workers are the last to go - as that's not something which can be 'absorbed' into head office.

OBJack, whilst i havent spent hours formally "researching" the laws... ive put a good deal of thought into it and drawn upon my (limited) personal experiences and every economic theory which was crammed into my brain at university... and i guess i drew a different conclusion.

It's not a social "experiment"... However, i agree it is ideological (and for the record, those ideologies are not something the government or the prime minister has kept hidden from the public). But the ideology is one which is based upon widely accepted economic theories - namely - market forces or the "invisible hand".

It would be interesting to hear more about the conclusions which you have drawn. And i do mean that genuinely.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Ever been lucky enough to be involved with a takeover/merger? Management are the first heads to roll... those jobs can now be performed by head office. Workers are the last to go - as that's not something which can be 'absorbed' into head office.

True but of little relevance to the new IR Reform.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Proberbly because the majority of our universities etc. are full of intelligent asians on short term visa's just waiting to go home to their families and a new job with an Australian company.
If you were an employer would you want the most productive people working for you?

What, no comment
or no bloo.dy argument!

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

What, no comment
or no bloo.dy argument!

Jeez sorry, a roast just came out of the oven..... Sorry you get second.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Jeez sorry, a roast just came out of the oven..... Sorry you get second.

Thats ok champ, i can tell that you must agree or you would have given something better than that in reply.
Gotta admit though, its better than talking about VP commies being quick and some of the other cr.ap that comes from here :

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Thats ok champ, i can tell that you must agree or you would have given something better than that in reply.
Gotta admit though, its better than talking about VP commies being quick and some of the other cr.ap that comes from here :

My DSL link is also up and down like a whores drawers at the moment..... Much of this has been replied using my wireless ipaq..... Also have a ebay auction ending soon... But I will answer!!! And wil not be a series of cliche's.

Cheers.

BTW it's a lamb roast, my favourite.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

A question. If these IR laws are so employer freindly, why are they now (the employers) falling over themselves to re-locate their jobs to China etc. Part of the answer is, bcause it is so easy to get rid of their Aussie eployees. What is the rest of the answer???

Answer me this, Should the OWNER of a small business have the right to employe who ever they like or steer their business in what ever direction they like? after all its their money, time, effort and "house" that's on the line if the business fails?
I don't know any small business owner who'd sack a good employe or send their business broke intentionally....
The fact is there's a small % of our workforce that lived comfortably off the backs of hard working employee's for ages, they have impacted productivity enourmously and reduced this country's ability to compete globaly for too long but now the "safety net" of a "guaranteed job at any cost" has gone.

[460cixy]

we have no trouble geting aprentices we have more than we have tradesman. where i work thay advertise every weekend and cant get anyone the hours are good and the ppl are good and the wages are comparable to any other work shops but it like every mechanic around here wont get out of bed for under 800 a week and its just un real theres also alot of dead wood at work too the do as little as posable type but thay wont be fired because we need all the help we can get. but at the end of the day this I.R thing is realy getting old

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Answer me this, Should the OWNER of a small business have the right to employe who ever they like or steer their business in what ever direction they like? after all its their money, time, effort and "house" that's on the line if the business fails?

Of course. But often the business's where the owner has
everything on the line are the worst to work for!! Anyone that goes into a business using the house as equity is taking risks that border on "silliness" But I do understand how some older people that are made redundant try to buy a job... What else can they do.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Of course. But often the business's where the owner has
everything on the line are the worst to work for!! Anyone that goes into a business using the house as equity is taking risks that border on "silliness" But I do understand how some older people that are made redundant try to buy a job... What else can they do.

Try dealing with a bank for an overdraft, i don't know too many small businesses that can survive without one, they want bricks and mortar as security, there's an old saying "a bank will only lend you an umbrella if the forecast is for sunny weather"..
People forget that the bloke who owns the business has his nuts in a vice day in day out with overdraft issues, workcover liabilities, bad debt, slow payers and fierce market competition just so he can provide stable employment.....
"passengers" with poor work ethics increase the risk enourmously.

[gtfpv]

i havent read most of this as it is a lot of reading . but people forget that bosses have bad deals . amnd are employees as well. business owners are people too . but the elite . are the wealthy big business people who can ,will, and do screw the rest of us over for profit , the government plays on power and likes to have people in small businesses and middle management : think they are employers because they might get more money than the people they lead. , and they pay for that money by having no job security , and normally, short term positions, ( they have to move on all the time. ) this is all ok because these people are about 10 % of the work force . 1 point is they are being paid well as they are a minority with more responsibility , then there are the lackies , like receptionists and chargehands , that like to think they hacve status over others and are elitists becauser they wear a white shirt . these people are usually power hungry , dumb, people that think they are high and mighty , and deliberately , go one out and seperate themselves from the majority workers for pride . a sense as i've made it self gratification. these are the people that sign away conditioins at the will of there overhead employers , and grind down conditions , while the elite . laugh !!!. at the end of the day the elitists ( the true big business wealthy profit go gettters < are using the people underneath them , who are well paid to screw over and cost cut by economising industries . at the end of the day a lot of people are screwing over themselves . and only the elite win .
people need to change there way of thinking before they speak.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Try dealing with a bank for an overdraft, i don't know too many small businesses that can survive without one, they want bricks and mortar as security, there's an old saying "a bank will only lend you an umbrella if the forecast is for sunny weather"..
People forget that the bloke who owns the business has his nuts in a vice day in day out with overdraft issues, workcover liabilities, bad debt, slow payers and fierce market competition just so he can provide stable employment.....
"passengers" with poor work ethics increase the risk enourmously.

Its not easy being in business, I really do wonder why some people ever bother. If these new laws only provided employers the means of parting company with dead wood, I would be behind them. It is the stripping away of workers rights and conditions that really worries me. And like some people here that believe they are immune, I believe myself to be safe for the next few years. But I am one of 20 people in this country with some very specialized qualifications. I only need 4 or 5 more years and its all aboard the yacht for a balance of lifetime sailing the 7 oceans. But that does not mean I can easily ignore what is happening to the Australian worker. That is the mark of someone with socialist leanings. The mark on the other side of the fence is usually, me , me , me. This ipaq thing is getting tiring. Please dont get too upset if answres are slow in the making... And spelling is too hard to correst.
All the best all.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by 460cixy

we have no trouble geting aprentices we have more than we have tradesman. where i work thay advertise every weekend and cant get anyone the hours are good and the ppl are good and the wages are comparable to any other work shops but it like every mechanic around here wont get out of bed for under 800 a week and its just un real theres also alot of dead wood at work too the do as little as posable type but thay wont be fired because we need all the help we can get. but at the end of the day this I.R thing is realy getting old

$ 800 a week the poor barstards . that may be ok for a small time if you share a flat with others or live with mum and dad . but try pauying 400 to 500 aweek on a mortgage as a start base then run a car , buy food pay bills and have children on that . you'll suddenly realise you'll be asking for a lot more than 800 before you get out of bed . onless you want to share a room at the back of the workshop with stacked beds i it and a shower with your non english speaking work buddies .

this is where i will end my replies to this post as i am getting angry. but i hope some of the young dumb people start standing up for thier future and stop agreeing with big business , and change thier own world so they can live in it. it was never a problem in the past . people fought for thier way of life . and made one for themselves . WTF is going on now!!!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Its not easy being in business, I really do wonder why some people ever bother. If these new laws only provided employers the means of parting company with dead wood, I would be behind them. It is the stripping away of workers rights and conditions that really worries me. And like some people here that believe they are immune, I believe myself to be safe for the next few years. But I am one of 20 people in this country with some very specialized qualifications. I only need 4 or 5 more years and its all aboard the yacht for a balance of lifetime sailing the 7 oceans. But that does not mean I can easily ignore what is happening to the Australian worker. That is the mark of someone with socialist leanings. The mark on the other side of the fence is usually, me , me , me. This ipaq thing is getting tiring. Please dont get too upset if answres are slow in the making... And spelling is too hard to correst.
All the best all.

Yes, sometimes i wonder why i do too.
A while ago i had to discipline an employee, it was their 2nd official warning for poor work performance, they ran out of my office crying and screaming on the day of the warning which was in itself fairly typical of this primadona.
The next day i got a fax from a solicitor with a workcover claim for "stress and anxiety", this followed with a medical certificate giving an un specified period of leave, then i recieved a claim for wrongful dismissal, which in fact never happened but was fabricated.
To cut a long and stressful story short the case was investigated by workcover and rejected outright and rejected on appeal, and the unlawful dismissal case was throwen out first time and on appeal on the grounds that it was ill concieved malicious and vexacious.
In the industrial relations commision i "won" 4 times!
However... this whole sorry saga cost me $15,000.00 in legal bills, and un told stress, and i cant recoup 1 single cent.
Under the new I.R laws this employee is still covered by their workcover rights and is also covered against wrongful dismissal HOWEVER they now would have to provide significantly more proof before id have to spend a cent defending myself.
These laws while not perfect yet, but are there to protect small businesses from people like this, and in doing so protect the viability of small businesses and help ensure employement for good employees.

[MO]

Greenmachine and all others there is one very clear and unrefutable solution to the whole 'new IR laws'problem.....

Bring back conscription...yes you will be a soldier first but you can get a trade....take the army time out to 6yrs, instead of the two as before, covers trade training and payback.

As for the high earning 'ceo's' when there are no jobs for them because they took to much from the company....guess who's going to be earning the big dollars......the tradesman...because no one else can do the job.


Would love to see an 'ceo' try to rewire his house or plumb a new sewer...think about before posting hastily.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yes, sometimes i wonder why i do too.
A while ago i had to discipline an employee, it was their 2nd official warning for poor work performance, they ran out of my office crying and screaming on the day of the warning which was in itself fairly typical of this primadona.
The next day i got a fax from a solicitor with a workcover claim for "stress and anxiety", this followed with a medical certificate giving an un specified period of leave, then i recieved a claim for wrongful dismissal, which in fact never happened but was fabricated.
To cut a long and stressful story short the case was investigated by workcover and rejected outright and rejected on appeal, and the unlawful dismissal case was throwen out first time and on appeal on the grounds that it was ill concieved malicious and vexacious.
In the industrial relations commision i "won" 4 times!
However... this who sorry saga cost me $15,000.00 in legal bills, and un told stress, and i cant recoup 1 single cent.
Under the new I.R laws this employee is still covered by their workcover rights and is also covered against wrongful dismissal HOWEVER they now would have to provide significantly more proof before id have to spend a cent defending myself.
These laws while not perfect yet, but are there to protect small businesses from people like this, and in doing so protect the viability of small businesses and help ensure employement for good employees.

if you werent at fault why did it cost you money .? this i dont understand . why couldn't you have just not parted with a cent and just let the industrial relations process and workcover inspections roll along ???

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

if you werent at fault why did it cost you money .? this i dont understand . why couldn't you have just not parted with a cent and just let the industrial relations process and workcover inspections roll along ???

In all legal maters you'd be crazy not to engage a good Solicitor and Barristor, their damages claim was $50K....
The workcover case didnt cost me much except wages while they were off, and the cost of the workcover investigation.
As an employer, In the industrial relations commission you are considered GUILTY till you can prove you're innocent.
In order to defend a case in the "old" industrial relations commision you MUST provide a detailed and comprehensive defence prepared properly in the correct legal format by a barristor, this took over 3 weeks on and off to prepare properly with witness statements, hard evidance etc etc, then they respond then you respond, then they consider you strike oput motion, if you win the first time they have the right to appeal, then you go to more detail and more time and more money......
Trust me, it WAS expensive, in the scheme of what i was facing it was money well spent and they did a great job proving our case, thankfully now its been streamlined.
By the way, it didnt cost them a cent to have a crack at me, the old system gave them a free swing....

Edit:
I was so annoyed about this that i contacted the Federal Minister for I.R and his office said they averaged 3-4 complaints a day from small business owners who'd experienced similar situations to mine, the I.R Courts and Workcover were clogged to the eyeballs with garbage nonesence cases like this.
Personally im wrapped that they listened to the complaints and acted, even if they over did it in some areas..

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by John McMaster

Bring back conscription.

Finally three words that can take care of more issues than just IR laws.
If kids dont want to attend school or undertake further education and cant find a job they should go in the forces.
Perhaps they might even find respect, honor, obediance and last but not least work ethic.
Send 'em off to work in Iraq and if they dont learn to pull their weight there they will recieve a bullet in the ar.se or worse.
I'd rather the government pay unemployed to do some real service for their money and learn a skill for future reference.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

In all legal maters you'd be crazy not to engage a good Solicitor and Barristor, their damages claim was $50K....
The workcover case didnt cost me much except wages while they were off, and the cost of the workcover investigation.
As an employer, In the industrial relations commission you are considered GUILTY till you can prove you're innocent.
In order to defend a case in the "old" industrial relations commision you MUST provide a detailed and comprehensive defence prepared by a barristor, this took over 3 weeks on and off to prepare properly, then they respond then you respond, then they consider you strike oput motion, if you win the first time they have the right to appeal, then you go to more detail and more time and more money......
Trust me, it WAS expensive, in the scheme of what i was facing it was money well spent and they did a great job proving our case, thankfully now its been streamlined.
By the way, it didnt cost them a cent to have a crack at me, the old system gave them a free swing....

well that sux and i'm sorry for you . its a shame you cant buy insurance against this type of thing. any how it is a shame that people do this, i myself see it often . obviously there was something not right then . but unfortunately the new ir laws seem to have dealt with this side of things ( maybe) but unfortunately i see a far ulterior agenda .
people like you may be at a loss loss situation . you can be the best person on the planet , but you still have to compete with the worst .i fear that this is what will happen to not all but most industries .
big business makes big profitss using big resources cutting all opposition and competition off at the knees . profits go to the top at the expense of all including small companies , and employees. everywhere if small business supports these laws they are also supporting low wages to compete with the bigger firms . its a lose lose situation . and no one . is giving people a compromise . . THIS IS WHERE IT IS WRONG . IT'S ALL OR NOTHING .

[4.9 EF Futura]

Interesting how its not long before people start to show their real character and display their genuine prejudices.

but the elite . are the wealthy big business people who can ,will, and do screw the rest of us over for profit

Yes. These people get up in the morning, put their suit on... and walk out the door saying "man, i cant wait to go and scr*w some workers!!". They live to make people's lives difficult!

I mean - there's absolutely no chance that they have a passion for their job. Absolutely ridiculous to think that any of them have worked their asses off to get where they are.

Tall poppy syndrome is a horrible thing isnt it? So many people to cut down... such little time.

there are the lackies , like receptionists and chargehands , that like to think they hacve status over others and are elitists becauser they wear a white shirt

Oh, absolutely. How dare someone wear a whit shirt to work?!?!?!?!? Those damn elitists. Here's a tip for you tho - they're not earning anyhthing CLOSE to a mechanic @ $800 p/w

As for the high earning 'ceo's' when there are no jobs for them because they took to much from the company....guess who's going to be earning the big dollars......the tradesman...because no one else can do the job

What's the story boys? You scared of guys that wear white shirts to work or something?

Seriously - im suprised it took 4 pages before people started taking swings at anyone who isnt a tradesman. "That's not really bloody work" right? Ever considered what it takes to be a CEO? Think you could give it a shot? Do you think all those fancy letters after someone's name came in a box of cereal?

No i wouldnt have thought so. Better part of a decade at university. Weeks away from family and friends, 100 hour weeks, placing your credibility and career prospects in the hands of those who work around you...

You couldnt force me at gunpoint to live that life.

But you could live without banks, right? You could live without insurance companies, yeah? All those pricks who run electricty and gas companies... those silly bastards who put a white shirt on and go sell computers - get rid of em. Who needs telephones, internet, fax machines - anyone who sells them or keeps the network ticking over can shove it up their jumper.