Falcon has a future with us, says Ford - Page 3

phillyc · 07-12-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

I am very cynical about the I4T, Ford themselves said it will be a premium option and it also hasnt even been spotted yet in a local Ford. I suspect the I4T was used to deflect the fact Focus was being cancelled and to also get some Green Car funding. I dont see it being a high volume engine for the Falcon rather it will be an option on the middle and high grade Falcons, I see eGas as continuing its role on winning over fleets.

I4T will likely be "ECO-netic", just like the 3.7L/100km ECOnetic Fiesta or the upcoming Sub 4L/100km ECOnetic Focus with diesel and stop-start technology.

Having the option of a 4cyl could mean exports to Europe if LHD'd - which the design is LHD protected.

phillyc · 07-12-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

FoA seem to pick up more R&D work and less manufacturing.

Right now, that would be a far more profitable way to do business.

They are building to order, with a rich model mix AND doing plenty of R&D for overseas.

naddis01 · 07-12-2009, 10:55 PM

Can anyone tell me how much of the supposed rich model mix are XR6s being sold at $36990? Isn't that basically XT pricing?

FPV GTHO · 07-12-2009, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

I4T will likely be "ECO-netic", just like the 3.7L/100km ECOnetic Fiesta or the upcoming Sub 4L/100km ECOnetic Focus with diesel and stop-start technology.

I'm pretty sure Econetic is purely diesel technology.

Brazen · 08-12-2009, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

Having the option of a 4cyl could mean exports to Europe if LHD'd - which the design is LHD protected.

The problem I see with exports to Europe is that the Falcon due to size and low production base will have to be a 'premium' Ford vehicle as it wont be able to compete with the cost of the Mondeo.

Now if the Falcon is a premium vehicle it should probably not be sold with ecoboost 4 cylinder engines as whats the point if the Mondeo has them.

Instead the Falcon should be offered with grunty 6 cylinder engines not available in the Mondeo, BUT with the V6 engine being cancelled there is no way Ford would sell an orphan Inline 6 in Europe, so maybe the I4T is the only hope..

Also the Falcon would need to have features above the Mondeo. The Mondeo has active cruise, active headlights, xenons, voice control, sunroof, keyless start, etc. for goodness sake the Falcon doesnt even offer a sunroof (even thought a $13,990 Barina comes with one standard at the moment)

Also in the large car class about 50% of vehicles are Estates (wagons) which Ford are apparantly not doing in the Falcon and more again are diesel which Ford are not doing as well in Falcon.

I just do not see European exports happening unless Ford AU pulls their finger out and actually pursues markets, invests some money (shock horror) and gives them what they want - kinda like what Holden does with their export zeal....

To me a better market would be the middle east, ride the coattails of Holden, they also can fill the small void left by the Crown Victoria in the middle east when that goes out of production in the US next year.

Another market could be the US, but it would have to be a VERY niche segment otherwise it would be stepping on the Fusion and Tauras. The One Ford strategy means that the Falcon could not go mainstream in the US or the board would not be happy, the Falcon could not chase fleet or Police sales. I think premium XR8 utes and sedans would be an absoloute hit, perhaps marketed as the Family man's mustang - they would have to be ballsy and in your face or they would be considered to close to the performance Tauras SHO with its subtle styling.

But then again Ford has ruled out a LHD program at this stage.

vztrt · 08-12-2009, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

I'm not going to say its happening but if you put a two liter engine in a Falcon then it quite sell able to the UK as there insurance brackets are sky high once you go over the two liter mark from what I heard. Plus it RHD country already, who knows whats going on a Ford at the moment, but time will tell.

Asian countries would be somewhere to look at, remember the Terri was canned in Thailand because of the I6 being more then 3L so it attracted a tax instead of having no tarrif.

Joe5619 · 08-12-2009, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Can anyone tell me how much of the supposed rich model mix are XR6s being sold at $36990? Isn't that basically XT pricing?

That is what I've been thinking for a long time..

LeadFoot81 · 08-12-2009, 11:13 AM

Yeah but it doesn't cost much more to build an XR6 than an XT, more XR6s will be sold to private customers who tend to option stuff on them. Overall Ford will make more money selling S-Paks (I mean XR6s)

Road_Warrior · 08-12-2009, 11:37 AM

2011 is shaping up to the the most important milestone in the Falcon's history...

Ohio XB · 08-12-2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boss315

This is a no brainer Steve, but Ford have already said the Mustang is it's own model and will remain that way (it doesn't even carry a Ford badge). The Crown Victoria has been given its marching orders, and Ford in their wisdom believe it can be replaced by a AWD Taurus (in police applications). I'm finding it hard to find a suitable mate for the Falcon.

So far I have only read speculation that the new Interceptor is the Taurus AWD. The Crown Vic will be produced until September 2011, so the new Interceptor still has amost 2 years before it needs to be available. Let's see what happens in April, May, or June in the US this coming year.

Steve

Ohio XB · 08-12-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Well the current mob in charge of Ford AU has:

cancelled local Focus
cancelled new V6
cancelled any LHD engineering
not pursued any new exports
cancelling the wagon

Are they doing anything to secure local manufacturing?
And yet a lot of you guys are angry at Goauto for actually asking some very valid questions on the Falcons future, perhaps your indignation should be better directed at Ford AU.

The LHD vehicle production in Australia was cancelled by Derrick Kuzak in Dearborn, to my knowledge.

Steve

Road_Warrior · 08-12-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

The LHD vehicle production in Australia was cancelled by Derrick Kuzak in Dearborn, to my knowledge.

Steve

Engineering the E249 for LHD was canceled by former FoA President Tom Gorman, not the "current mob" as the poster has claimed.

The platform remains design protected for LHD.

Brazen · 08-12-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Engineering the E249 for LHD was canceled by former FoA President Tom Gorman, not the "current mob" as the poster has claimed.

The platform remains design protected for LHD.

Well if the 'current mob' can overturn the previous managements decision to produce the Focus and overturn the decision to give the Falcon the global V6, why arent they overturning the decision to not pursue LHD development..???

Wally · 08-12-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

The problem I see with exports to Europe is that the Falcon due to size and low production base will have to be a 'premium' Ford vehicle as it wont be able to compete with the cost of the Mondeo.

Now if the Falcon is a premium vehicle it should probably not be sold with ecoboost 4 cylinder engines as whats the point if the Mondeo has them.

Instead the Falcon should be offered with grunty 6 cylinder engines not available in the Mondeo, BUT with the V6 engine being cancelled there is no way Ford would sell an orphan Inline 6 in Europe, so maybe the I4T is the only hope..

Also the Falcon would need to have features above the Mondeo. The Mondeo has active cruise, active headlights, xenons, voice control, sunroof, keyless start, etc. for goodness sake the Falcon doesnt even offer a sunroof (even thought a $13,990 Barina comes with one standard at the moment)

Also in the large car class about 50% of vehicles are Estates (wagons) which Ford are apparantly not doing in the Falcon and more again are diesel which Ford are not doing as well in Falcon.

I just do not see European exports happening unless Ford AU pulls their finger out and actually pursues markets, invests some money (shock horror) and gives them what they want - kinda like what Holden does with their export zeal....

To me a better market would be the middle east, ride the coattails of Holden, they also can fill the small void left by the Crown Victoria in the middle east when that goes out of production in the US next year.

Another market could be the US, but it would have to be a VERY niche segment otherwise it would be stepping on the Fusion and Tauras. The One Ford strategy means that the Falcon could not go mainstream in the US or the board would not be happy, the Falcon could not chase fleet or Police sales. I think premium XR8 utes and sedans would be an absoloute hit, perhaps marketed as the Family man's mustang - they would have to be ballsy and in your face or they would be considered to close to the performance Tauras SHO with its subtle styling.

But then again Ford has ruled out a LHD program at this stage.

Both you and vztrt put up some compelling arguments, cudos to both of you.

From the feedback on the US forums, I would go one further than the XR8 and suggest the I6T would be a niche hit ... it's one of the few cars many of them feel they are being deprived of. I don't blame Ford though, because the market went gun shy on the Pontiacs even though they got good press and plenty of enthusiasm.

I doubt the UK market is the place for the Falcon, the highways are just like ours, but the streets & houses aren't large car friendly.

**Fordman1** · 08-12-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Engineering the E249 for LHD was canceled by former FoA President Tom Gorman, not the "current mob" as the poster has claimed.

The platform remains design protected for LHD.

That is...........E240

Road_Warrior · 08-12-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Well if the 'current mob' can overturn the previous managements decision to produce the Focus and overturn the decision to give the Falcon the global V6, why arent they overturning the decision to not pursue LHD development..???

Probably because the platform is now in production and it would divert resources and money away from more important near-term programs like the 2011 Territory revision, the 2010 Falcon update which is well and truly locked in, and the T6 commercial vehicle program. In addition to the plethora of sub-contract R&D work FoA already does for other arms of Ford.

phillyc · 08-12-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I'm pretty sure Econetic is purely diesel technology.

Fiesta is diesel tech only. Focus Econetic is diesel and stop-start.

http://uk.autoblog.com/2009/12/03/fi...ic-stop-start/

First drive: Ford Focus Econetic Stop-Start

First, the Ford Focus is Britain's biggest selling car and this Econetic version returns 74mpg, so it's the cheapest model to run. Secondly - and more importantly - it still drives, rides, feels and is equipped as well as an ordinary Focus Zetec. So you might actually want to own one.

phillyc · 08-12-2009, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Can anyone tell me how much of the supposed rich model mix are XR6s being sold at $36990? Isn't that basically XT pricing?

Beats the pants of selling XT's for $31k which is what someone on here was saying they were being bought by fleets in BF guise.

IIRC, the advert for $36990 XR6 also says private customers.

Gobes32 · 08-12-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

The Ford plant isnt at capacity

That's good to know, because a few of the guys who are doing 70 hour weeks were wondering when things would pick up......

Brazen · 08-12-2009, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

That's good to know, because a few of the guys who are doing 70 hour weeks were wondering when things would pick up......

Just because they have fired a lot of people and reduced the line rate, does not mean the plant itself is at capacity. Even in the 90s before Just-in-time inventory and reduced automation they were still pumping out 90,000 -100,000 units a year, now they are running 40,000 less.

RPO83 · 08-12-2009, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Engineering the E249 for LHD was canceled by former FoA President Tom Gorman, not the "current mob" as the poster has claimed.

The platform remains design protected for LHD.

It was Kuzak.

FPV GTHO · 09-12-2009, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Just because they have fired a lot of people and reduced the line rate, does not mean the plant itself is at capacity. Even in the 90s before Just-in-time inventory and reduced automation they were still pumping out 90,000 -100,000 units a year, now they are running 40,000 less.

And thats still only theoretically at 1/3 capacity.

Joe5619 · 09-12-2009, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

now they are running 40,000 less.

What a load of BS.. I'll use very poor sales figure as an example. Falcon 2,500/ month, ute 900/ month & Terr 900/ month. That is 4,300/ month or 51,600 per year (based on very bad sales, which Ford has been selling more than these numbers of late)!!

Brazen · 09-12-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

What a load of BS.. I'll use very poor sales figure as an example. Falcon 2,500/ month, ute 900/ month & Terr 900/ month. That is 4,300/ month or 51,600 per year (based on very bad sales, which Ford has been selling more than these numbers of late)!!

what is 90,000 to 100,000 LESS 40,000....???

Ohio XB · 09-12-2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Engineering the E249 for LHD was canceled by former FoA President Tom Gorman, not the "current mob" as the poster has claimed.

The platform remains design protected for LHD.

Quote:

“We were actively looking at left-hand-drive Falcon and we clearly advanced that pretty far,” said Gorman. “It wasn’t my decision (to not proceed) because it wasn’t my investment.

“The corporation [Ford] had to decide if that was the right investment to put the right product into the Middle East versus other choices. And when you look at the choice to put Focus here, that is a much, much better near-term choice.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=44891

Wasn't Gorman, according to Gorman.

He says "The corporation had to decide..." and Derrick Kuzak is the President of Global Product Development, so I would have to say it was his call.

It seems I read an article at the time LHD notions were killed and I read Kuzak as being the one to call it, or perhaps he only announced it? Either way, if it was a Corporate decision it had to be his final say, since product development around the world is his baby.

Steve

imugli · 09-12-2009, 02:39 PM

One of the reasons I kept hearing Ford give for not exporting Falcon to the MidEast was that GM had no other large RWD platform, so Commodore / Statesman fitted that bill. Ford however had the CV which was already engineered for LHD and had paid for itself may times over, thus if Ford had exported the Falc there, they would not only have to incur the development cost but they would have 2 cars competing for the same dollar. Not good business sense.

On the Commodore / Pontiac argument, an article on Motortrend recently tried to analyse the reason for the failure of the Aussie cars in the Pontiac lineup. One of the reasons was that they simply didn't have any Pontiac DNA - they didn't LOOK like Pontiacs. They didn't look like anything. People just couldn't get their heads around them as Pontiacs, even though thepress loved them. In other words, they saw through the badge engineering.

I don't think Falc would face the same obstacles. A. Because the badge still says Ford and B. Because it's not that hard to draw an imaginary line from Taurus to Falcon - Looks wise and size wise.

phillyc · 09-12-2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imugli

One of the reasons I kept hearing Ford give for not exporting Falcon to the MidEast was that GM had no other large RWD platform, so Commodore / Statesman fitted that bill. Ford however had the CV which was already engineered for LHD and had paid for itself may times over, thus if Ford had exported the Falc there, they would not only have to incur the development cost but they would have 2 cars competing for the same dollar. Not good business sense.

There were two things stopping LHD Middle East exports for Falcon. The first was NIID. Not invented in Detroit. The second was the existing Crown Vic. If that wasn't around. Ford would've needed a car in that market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by imugli

On the Commodore / Pontiac argument, an article on Motortrend recently tried to analyse the reason for the failure of the Aussie cars in the Pontiac lineup. One of the reasons was that they simply didn't have any Pontiac DNA - they didn't LOOK like Pontiacs. They didn't look like anything. People just couldn't get their heads around them as Pontiacs, even though thepress loved them. In other words, they saw through the badge engineering.

The big issue for the Monaro being sold as the Pontiac GTO, was the name GTO. Or Goat as the Yanks like to call them. They expected 7L torquey, angular musclecar. Not a 5.7L peaky, rounded coupe.

The G8/GXP was launched at a pretty bad time and had no real name recognition. It wasn't until it was announced the export was to be canned that the sales lifted and they cleared the backlog of some 10,000 unsold units.

Joe5619 · 09-12-2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

what is 90,000 to 100,000 LESS 40,000....???

What drugs are you on??? IF someone says they make LESS than 40,000 when they make MORE than 50,000.. then 40,000 is compleletey WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! I dont care what you say...

vztrt · 09-12-2009, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

What drugs are you on??? IF someone says they make LESS than 40,000 when they make MORE than 50,000.. then 40,000 is compleletey WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! I dont care what you say...

I think he was meaning 100,000 - 40,000 = 60,000.

Ohio XB · 10-12-2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

There were two things stopping LHD Middle East exports for Falcon. The first was NIID. Not invented in Detroit.

The "NIID" aspect doesn't seem keep Ford from building a number of Euro cars in North America for the US market.

So what does everyone think the Eruo IV emissions spec was met for on the I6? Why would Ford bother meeting this spec if it is not required in Oz, or is it required in Oz?

Steve