Qantas, what a joke

[GCFordChic]

Originally Posted by flappist

If you guys REALLY want to be scared......
(read full quote above, cut out to save room )

ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?!?

That is taking cost cutting to the extreme!! Especially when one of QANTAS' strong points is it's safety record... :

I'm glad there are lots of places to see and lots of things to do in Australia. I'm glad i like driving too. I'll be safe in the future when this profit making idea is put in place...unless one falls out of the sky on top of me... :

Originally Posted by XRQTR

Alot has to do with looking after the mates and getting into peoples pockets, I mean if outsourcing is so cheap then you would think that all these 'imported' CEO's would be happy working for the same as an exec salary in Bangalor.

I had not thought of that before...you would think that would be the case wouldnt you! :rolleyes:

[T_Terror]

Just thought id throw this in, for the guys saying how hard it is to hook a job due to lack of experience, there will come a point where you will just have to offer to work for free just to get into the industry.

In my experience enthusiasm, exposure and diligence are the keys to STARTING in your chosen career.

[MO]

flappist; why do you think I have refused to fly for at least 10 yrs,what you listed is just one of the reasons.

Remembering I worked in the industry for over 30 years.

Harking back to another thread about avgas and Lycoming,Continental certification...there is in my area and I've yet to confirm,a Cessna 182 owner/pilot who has approval to run PULP with an additive.

Apparently this approval comes from the manufacturer.

And Qantas became the biggest joke...when Ansett fell out of the sky.

[XA Coupsta]

MO the way I read it - it isnt in place (the new thing QF are trying to do to CASA) yet? And wouldnt have been in the last 10 years?

So you were in the industry for 30 - no doubt then able to obtain awesome travel priveleges and benefits..............and you didnt fly? Is that right?

I'll take a shot too and say you are ex AN staff.......am I close?

[MO]

Originally Posted by XA Coupsta

MO the way I read it - it isnt in place (the new thing QF are trying to do to CASA) yet? And wouldnt have been in the last 10 years?

So you were in the industry for 30 - no doubt then able to obtain awesome travel priveleges and benefits..............and you didnt fly? Is that right?

I'll take a shot too and say you are ex AN staff.......am I close?

Mate,there was a lot more happening behind the scenes before what flappist posted.

No,you are wrong I am not ex Ansett and I was not privileged to get flight benefits.

You see I was an Aviation Rescue Firefighter.

As for the not flying that only came about five years before I retired in 2003.

As for Qantas being the safe airline...there is a lot more publicly unreported incidents than the public will ever know of.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MO

Harking back to another thread about avgas and Lycoming,Continental certification...there is in my area and I've yet to confirm,a Cessna 182 owner/pilot who has approval to run PULP with an additive.

I will bet you a million squillion bazillion stubbies that if there is approval it is private ops only day VFR.......

[MO]

Originally Posted by flappist

I will bet you a million squillion bazillion stubbies that if there is approval it is private ops only day VFR.......

Will find out more and get back and yes I've only seen this 182 at minima ops/daylight...mainly photo runs etc.

And yes I'm very curious.

[rodderz]

Originally Posted by flappist

If you guys REALLY want to be scared......

QANTAS management (not aviation management) are pressuring CASA to create a new "Multi crew only" pilot's licence to combat the shortage of tech crew caused by the destruction of GA in this country.
This new licence, if approved, will allow people to be trained to SO level on a heavy jet purely in a simulator, that is not having ever actually flown an aircraft.

If I found out that while I was waiting in the boarding lounge, I'de walk off and throw my ticket back over the counter, thats discraceful. It's playing with people's lives, no matter how good the giant xbox is, it's a fake way of learning

Someone should let this be known to a large media source to make a fool out of them and get these buggers to stop being cheapskates.

Why is it that big companies seem to make such stupid decisions? My missus works for Coles Myer and the things that company is changing at the moment to be so-called "cost cutting" is so friggin backwards it'll bite them on the bum big time soon enough

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MO

Will find out more and get back and yes I've only seen this 182 at minima ops/daylight...mainly photo runs etc.

And yes I'm very curious.

Bit hard to see it in IMC :P
Photo, like meatbombing is PVT

[MO]

rodderz;there is a lot more goes on than ppl will ever know about.

flappist;as soon as i have more info you will be the first to know.

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

Just heard on the news not 5 minutes ago that Qantas are sending 400 jobs to India because, wait for it, their are not enough skilled IT workers here in Oz, it would seem that the Libs IR laws are really gonna get a pounding in the news this week and rightly so.

Looks like the loop holes are abundant for those with the time and people to find them, I can't believe that this is being allowed to happen and that the opposition hasn't voiced their outrage at this point.

Could this be the beginning of the end of the paradise we call Australia for the common working man? I guess only time will tell and at the rate of this kind of thing I don't think we will be waiting long to find out.

Dont really disagree with anything you say except blaming the new IR laws. This has been happening since before Jack was a boy. Theres been record amounts over the last 5 years before the IR laws changed. Not saying they are right or wrong but its not because of them and not a new problem as a result of them regardless of what you read..

[XA Coupsta]

Originally Posted by MO

Mate,there was a lot more happening behind the scenes before what flappist posted.

No,you are wrong I am not ex Ansett and I was not privileged to get flight benefits.

You see I was an Aviation Rescue Firefighter.

As for the not flying that only came about five years before I retired in 2003.

As for Qantas being the safe airline...there is a lot more publicly unreported incidents than the public will ever know of.

Cool - thanks for the clarification.

Your work as a Aviation Rescue Firefighter sounds very interesting indeed.

Yeh look there is a tonne of stuff 'unreported' across many airlines (not just our friends at Qantas). And true if we all knew every detail no-one would be flying ANYwhere in reality - coz its scary stuff. Maybe what you dont know wont hurt you? Some people are happy with that - not all though (and I suspect you Mo will be one that doesnt live by that mantra!?). Lets also be truthful then in admitting (without being conspiracists) that there are many things the public are not told.......across many industries and occupations........not just airlines..........

rodderz - interesting comments about Coles Myer. Specially with the very strong takeover rumours (have they died down now?). But how true it is - they are short sighted in their 'cost cutting' wisdom and more than likely in the years to come they'll essentially undo all that they are doing now.

I suspect it may be similar to QF and this movement to jobs offshore. Eventually they'll realise it saved them 'cost' - but it impacted on many other areas of the business and they will likely decide all of a sudden that they can afford to keep jobs in Australia and afford that better quality. I sure hope so. I hate seeing jobs being taken out of our country.

[Miss_XR6]

Originally Posted by MO

Mate,there was a lot more happening behind the scenes before what flappist posted.

No,you are wrong I am not ex Ansett and I was not privileged to get flight benefits.

You see I was an Aviation Rescue Firefighter.

As for the not flying that only came about five years before I retired in 2003.

As for Qantas being the safe airline...there is a lot more publicly unreported incidents than the public will ever know of.

yeh i agree qantas may not have had a major crash that has killed all on board but it has had alot of incidents which the media hasnt got there hands on
alot of airlines are starting to send there work to india.. i know of a previous company i use to work for (airline industry) which closed recently to send all there staff to india for cheaper cost..

[Outbackjack]

I have a good freind (that amazing by its self!!!) that works in aircraft maintenance. Not for Qantas. But does lots of work on Qantas jets. What he has told me about plans to move maintenance off shore is frightening. If that should happen, I will be only ever be flying when I have the controls. It is lots slower, a piper arrow only goes so fast, but at least I know every nut and bolt in that plane. And it would be the only plane that I would let my family fly in. It is only a matter of time until a Qantas jet has a disaster. And there are lots of things happening in this world that most people dont know about. And most people really would not want to know...

Cheers all.

[old_mate]

welcome to my world. i work for qantas. there is a few truths here in this thread, and a few not so truths, and while at the end of the day im not surprised about sending IT to india dont think for a second this is the end of it all.

qantas already send aircraft overseas for maintenance. they always have (even before sydney heavy closed, we dont have the capacity to cater for the whole fleet. The A330's going to Zurich is because we cant do it cheap enough here in Brisbane yet)

[MO]

Ok to clarify about the pulp in the cessna.

Its a 1969 model 182, compression ratio about 8 .1 and is FAA approved to run mogas with moreys.There is a tag near the filler.

The bloke that owns it only puts the pulp and moreys in when he is down to a quarter tank and wants to go to where he can get avgas.Just to ensure reserve.

Also he reckons there is no appreciable difference in performance maybe performs a touch better.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

, it would seem that the Libs IR laws are really gonna get a pounding in the news this week and rightly so.

How so? I dont see the link. Australian companies have been outsourcing to overseas companies (offshoring i believe is the appropriate buzzword) since... *shock horror gasp* the ALP was in government!!

Do you think a union or a different IR framework can stop a company from moving Australian jobs offshore? Nope.

Interested to hear more on this point.

Could this be the beginning of the end of the paradise we call Australia for the common working man? I guess only time will tell and at the rate of this kind of thing I don't think we will be waiting long to find out.

And whom, prey tell, is the common working man?

The big 4 banks have, over the past months, sent no less than 1000 jobs overseas. I dont see any of the working class heroes here on AFF jumping in to defend them??? Or is it uncool for you guys to defend someone's job in that industry?

Please provide a list of jobs which you think are worthy of being defended, just so i dont accidentally jump on and support someone who doesnt fit your ideal of a "common working man".

Why is it that big companies seem to make such stupid decisions? My missus works for Coles Myer and the things that company is changing at the moment to be so-called "cost cutting" is so friggin backwards it'll bite them on the bum big time soon enough

Lol and who are you to say what a good or stupid decision is????? May appear stupid on face value but reat assured such a decision isnt made without a good case to support it.

I agree with the second part here tho - time is the ultimate judge. If these are poor business decisions, it will become apparent.

Unfortunately it's only going to keep on happening when (as biomechanic said) other people are willing to work for alot less than us, doing the same job, regardless of the quality of output.

I dont see the problem with that. Do you think we (1st world, predominantly white) have always been paid so well?

No.

And india/china will go through exactly the same thing. The workers will be less willing to work for such small amounts as the years go by. The comparative advantage will evaporate before you know it. Remember these countries are only taking years to accomplish what the western world did over centuries.

Saul Trojiya (spelling) took home over AU$9million whle Telstra shares went down again, would you perhaps care to justify that in the interests of share holders??

The shareholders approve the remuneration framework. Simple. Not saying i agree with how much he gets paid.

Lol, as for the IT shortage... this excuse is a bit of a crock IMO. If it were a shortage then people wouldnt be getting fired so these jobs could go OS!!!

[mowog]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Yeah that's what is funny. The majority of ads say 'experience needed' and I said to myself how the hell am I sposed to get experience if no one gives me a go?

My mum might be getting this job in the public service, and she said that they are pretty short of people, so I might have half a foot in the door with that.

What I seen grads do is offer themseleves to IT companies for free to get experiance. Your Uni should have contacts or placements in IT companies...

I seen a number of grads get very good jobs doing this.

On another topic...

Contactors whoring themselves I been a contractor for a number of years only because IT companies wont pay me for what skill is worth as a perm. I can double my income as a contractor. I see many of the Off shore people in the same area as I work stuggle to manage the work. (Online forums) And some are very good.

However I dont believe our Govt should allow mass offshoring of jobs this is just plain wrong.

[rodderz]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Lol and who are you to say what a good or stupid decision is????? May appear stupid on face value but reat assured such a decision isnt made without a good case to support it.

lol....and who are you to question that? If you re-read the post you'll see how I know about it and I'll add now that most in the company arent happy. All done to make money and be a big pain in the neck for the 1000's of employees who have to work harder, with less staff, and tighter budgets. They have to work hours of O/T to keep up, they get time in lew but point being they are that busy there isnt a chance to take it

But this isnt about that topic, so feel free to start that one elsewhere

[devilracer_01]

Qantas never cease to amaze me, all they worry about is trying to make more than a billion dollars a year, if that means short changing Australian workers, sending jobs o/seas weather it is IT or maintenance they will do it, Spirit Of Australia my ****

Virgin Blue all the way people :

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by devilracer_01

Qantas never cease to amaze me, all they worry about is trying to make more than a billion dollars a year, if that means short changing Australian workers, sending jobs o/seas weather it is IT or maintenance they will do it, Spirit Of Australia my ****

Virgin Blue all the way people :

Good observation. This is called business. Profit is the only concern. Senior management is rewarded by the size of the bottom line. The share holder is all that matters. Screw the average worker. As long as they (senior management and share holders) get their bonuses and dividend. And please I dont like hearing that all the workers getting 15% PA on their super funds should be grateful. Does anyone think that the share holders and senior managers would be happy with a crappy 15% on their investments. I guess I will get flamed by all the right wingers here and get called a lefty marxist. But hey, I dont care. I always go in and bat for the average worker in this country. I am not an average worker, I am lucky when it comes to money, invsetments and life style. I know how the top end of town thinks, and it sickens me.

I will always bat for the under dog. And this country is producing under dogs by the thousands every year. The qantas descision is another nail in the coffin for average working Australians.

The funny thing is, that when all this comes to a head, it is the big knobs that will fall the hardest.

Cheers all. :

[MO]

Virgin are already doing what Qantas is trying to do the only difference is the Virgin mob want about 50 hrs on turbofans prac before you get the seat.

And they don't have to be big!

[MO]

XA Coupsta...as far as I am concerned being an airport firie is the best job in the world..however when I was helping to run a recruit course back in The Alice,just after I had welcomed the recruits to the best job in the world...the senior instructor stuck his around the corner and said ..'the second best job..I have'nt found the best yet'.

Guess that sums it up.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by GCFordChic

...because the people in charge of these determinations only expect to be in the position for a few years...

I believe this is the best quote of this discussion. Those in power are there to feather their nests, and do what is best in the short term. Be it Government, CEO's or whatever.

Panda

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by devilracer_01

Qantas never cease to amaze me, all they worry about is trying to make more than a billion dollars a year, if that means short changing Australian workers, sending jobs o/seas weather it is IT or maintenance they will do it, Spirit Of Australia my ****

Virgin Blue all the way people :

Spirit of Australia indeed.

I hate to break it to you, but we operate in a free market economy. Profits are important, not only to the "top end of town" (thanks for the catchy phrease, outback!) but also to this mythical beast you guys refer to as the "average working man".

Because without big profits, shareholders will take their money somewhere else. It's not enough to make money - you have to make it EFFICENTLY. Why would i invest $1 into Qantas for a 10% return if i could put it into CBA and receive 15%.

Without the shareholders you so desperately despise, your beloved "average working man" has no job. Of course the shareholder is the most important bit of the bloody equation, without the shareholder there is no company.

And if you dont like the free market economy, I hear North Korea is nice at this time of year.

I will always bat for the under dog. And this country is producing under dogs by the thousands every year. The qantas descision is another nail in the coffin for average working Australians.

Is it possible to keep the discussion factual instead of turning it into an ACTU billboard?

"Underdogs" "Nail in the coffin". Why dont you say what you mean mate, instead of dragging out these rubbish slogans?

I know plenty of people who have started out as these "underdogs" (i assume you're just referring to someone who works under an award, maybe skilled, maybe not, earning somewhere around the average weekly?) and moved their way into Senior Management positions. It's where my industry pools its resources from, people who work up through the company.

A promotion into management is the stuff their dreams are made of (god knows i want to make it some day). But by the sounds of it, you think we should be standing there in the doorway saying "no, no - we cant have you becoming a pr*ck, back to the shop floor with you".

I got no problem with socialist views mate but take the tall poppy syndrome somewhere else!!! Why does it have to be "us vs them"??????

And please I dont like hearing that all the workers getting 15% PA on their super funds should be grateful. Does anyone think that the share holders and senior managers would be happy with a crappy 15% on their investments

Not at all. In fact, the market has shown that they are happy for Qantas to provide a rate of return much lower than 15%.

Qantas' return on equity for the FY just finished was 8.6%. Forecast for FY07 is 7.9%, FY08 is 12.9%... and the share has rallied almost 25% based on this forecast.

The dividend payment has been providing a yield of 5.0% - 5.5% for 2 years and this is forecasted for FY08.

But never let the facts get in the way of a bit of corporate bashing, huh?

Seriously, this isnt a charles dickens book. It's the year 2006. Senior management are not evil people, nor are shareholders. They are acting in the best interests of the company which IMMEDIATELY means they are working in the best interests of employees.

If a few hundred jobs have to go to ensure the viability of a few thousand, is it not worth it? Or should employees continue holding a compnay at ransom until it becomes unsustainable and tanks??

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Spirit of Australia indeed.

I hate to break it to you, but we operate in a free market economy. Profits are important, not only to the "top end of town" (thanks for the catchy phrease, outback!) but also to this mythical beast you guys refer to as the "average working man".

Because without big profits, shareholders will take their money somewhere else. It's not enough to make money - you have to make it EFFICENTLY. Why would i invest $1 into Qantas for a 10% return if i could put it into CBA and receive 15%.

Without the shareholders you so desperately despise, your beloved "average working man" has no job. Of course the shareholder is the most important bit of the bloody equation, without the shareholder there is no company.

And if you dont like the free market economy, I hear North Korea is nice at this time of year.



Is it possible to keep the discussion factual instead of turning it into an ACTU billboard?

"Underdogs" "Nail in the coffin". Why dont you say what you mean mate, instead of dragging out these rubbish slogans?

I know plenty of people who have started out as these "underdogs" (i assume you're just referring to someone who works under an award, maybe skilled, maybe not, earning somewhere around the average weekly?) and moved their way into Senior Management positions. It's where my industry pools its resources from, people who work up through the company.

A promotion into management is the stuff their dreams are made of (god knows i want to make it some day). But by the sounds of it, you think we should be standing there in the doorway saying "no, no - we cant have you becoming a pr*ck, back to the shop floor with you".

I got no problem with socialist views mate but take the tall poppy syndrome somewhere else!!! Why does it have to be "us vs them"??????



Not at all. In fact, the market has shown that they are happy for Qantas to provide a rate of return much lower than 15%.

Qantas' return on equity for the FY just finished was 8.6%. Forecast for FY07 is 7.9%, FY08 is 12.9%... and the share has rallied almost 25% based on this forecast.

The dividend payment has been providing a yield of 5.0% - 5.5% for 2 years and this is forecasted for FY08.

But never let the facts get in the way of a bit of corporate bashing, huh?

Seriously, this isnt a charles dickens book. It's the year 2006. Senior management are not evil people, nor are shareholders. They are acting in the best interests of the company which IMMEDIATELY means they are working in the best interests of employees.

If a few hundred jobs have to go to ensure the viability of a few thousand, is it not worth it? Or should employees continue holding a compnay at ransom until it becomes unsustainable and tanks??

I think that you need to read what I posted again. And this time put away your right is always right political views. It would seem that you are a person that jumps for glee when people loose their job and the price of your shares takes a jump.

I know how companies work and I know that profits are important. What you dont realise is that for every person that looses their job in this country, that is another companies customer that does not exist anymore.... it is a snowball. A fair profit is what needs to be gained, not a greedy short term windfall that can not be sustained. And you say that all managers are great guys, cough, cough, .

And I could have easily as you looked up the figures for qantas. Qantas in the context of this thread is largley symbolic of a larger issue that has Australia in its grips.
The under dogs that I refer to, you are reasonably correct in your assumption, I am talking factory, award earning people that are, not so slowly, having their rights as a working person eroded. Good for you if you want to work your way into mangement, just keep your self out of the management sess pool. ( Iwill explain that to you if you dont understand). I have worked my way into the top of my field in my chosen profession. For the last 6 years I have given 10K a year to registered charities, yep I am a lefty alright. How much have you given to charities of your choice??

These type of toing and froing type disscussions crop up now and then. I will never convince you to take at look the bigger picture wihick takes in many social issues.... And you will never convince me that a religion of ever increasing profits is good for average people.

Have a good life.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

It would seem that you are a person that jumps for glee when people loose their job and the price of your shares takes a jump.

OK well i apologise for the 'pick apart' of your post, but you cover a few things here

It's nice of you to jump to such conclusions based on a handful of posts you've read around the forums. I know you probably see all conservatives as the satirical caracture featuring a pig dressed up in a tux, scoffing down money from a trough and wiping his chin with the flag.

Rest assured this is not the case. No. What i do is understand the importance of inconviniences like the share market and a company's profitability. From the largest multinational to a home office - profit is key, as it ensures viability and jobs for tomorrow.

Unlike you - who thinks he can pick and choose who "deserves" to exist in this world and who does not. Someone who takes his moral standpoint as being "right" and by definition, everyone else is "wrong". You feel that you should decide who should be employed and who should not. But this is the true mantra of the left, is it not?

A tradesman who owns his own business should have the right to hire and fire whom he chooses. As should a large, listed company. And why the hell shouldnt they employ the most skilled person they can get for their dollar? It's their company, they can employ whoever they damn well please.

The days of this country owing you a living are long gone.

For the record - i DO NOT ENJOY hearing about fellow Australians losing their job. What kind of sicko do you take me for? I do, however, realise that its a part of life. Ive been through retrenchments as a result of international "interference" and it sucks. Thankfully there's more jobs available than there are people willing to work.

But more importantly, the vompany can get on with growing, increasing its business and hiring more people.

At the risk of quoting star trek, the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. And so they should.

And you say that all managers are great guys, cough, cough, man, I wish I could talk about what goes on in this world and not be bundled off at her majesties leasure.

I said no such thing. I said that you cant take every senior manager and throw him/her into this sterotypical beast that you are describing to us. There are people that have to make hard decisions in the interests of the company. Do you really, honestly think a highly paid executive enjoys laying workers off? If you do believe this then your sense of reality is more distorted than i imagined.

And I could have easily as you looked up the figures for qantas. Qantas in the context of this thread is largley symbolic of a larger issue that has Australia in its grips.

Yes well my intention by discrediting an individual comment is to encourage others to question the validity of your entire position. You play on people's emotions and sense of guilt - and as demonstrated here - this is often done under false pretenses.

I got nothing against the left, just their tactics. I have nothing against you and your opinions, its your approach that concerns me.

I plead with the readers of AFF to not get caught up in the stereotypes and the generalisations. Look at the facts.

The under dogs that I refer to, you are reasonably correct in your assumption, I am talking factory, award earning people that are, not so slowly, having their rights as a working person eroded. Good for you if you want to work your way into mangement, just keep your self out of the management sess pool. ( Iwill explain that to you if you dont understand). I have worked my way into the top of my field in my chosen profession. For the last 6 years I have given 10K a year to registered charities, yep I am a lefty alright. How much have you given to charities of your choice??

Well i didnt know we were going to be comparing paycheques?? Being at the start of my career (i have not yet been in the workforce for 6 years!!! lol) i certainly have not had $10k to donate to myself, let alone charities (i have a lot of concerns about these organisations but that's another chat for another time...). For what it's worth i currently commit $20/month from my account and make ad hoc donations "as i feel like it"... but I fail to see the relevance.

So many of the social issues that you speak of do not need to be specifically targeted and funded. Maintain the overall wealth and prosperity of the economy, of the country as a whole. You dont need to force a company into paying its workers "well". Company profits and working conditions are not mutually exclusive.

Look at the hey days of any developed economy and it was when the workers, the unions, the company, the managers and the stockholders WORKED WITH EACH OTHER instead of constantly working TOWARDS OPPOSITE GOALS like we see today. An eye for an eye until no one can see a damned thing.

Keep the majority of the population prosperous and those who 'fall behind' will be looked after. Its something we're very good at in Australia IMO.

[Mondie]

Whats amazing about all this is that if Qantas are watering down the quality of their maintenance and potentailly their pilots then at some point this is going to end in a disaster costing many people their lives. When that happens Qantas will be up the poo chute, their stock price will die, the government will be so far up their **** it wont be funny and the Aussie public will have lost all trust in them.

Hasnt there been a few US airlines that folded after having a plane crash? TWA for one?

Seems crazy to me and is one of the reasons l would never own Qantas shares (note l am not normally a pessimistic person!)

[flappist]

The problem with QANTAS is the passenegers.....thats right YOU READING THIS are the problem.

You want to be able to fly eveywhere for $49.95. You wear the consequences.

There was a time once where we had a two airline agreement and the cost of a cheap ticket from Brisbane to Sydney was $600. You got on your AN or TN flight and were treated like a guest in a 5 star, fed free grog, quality food and entertainment. The seats were large and soft and you arrived at your destination refreshed and ready to go.

If you could not aford $600 you took the bus, train or whatever. This took longer but obviously if it was more important to get there quickly and safely than save money then you made a choice.

Then came the revolution. Cheap fares means less income. Less income means cost cutting.

So how do they do that:

1) Pitch the aircraft for higher capacity, that is put the seats closer together and install smaller seats.
2) Drop the service and employ less cabin crew
3) Reduce maintenance to only safety issues
4) Lower your tech crew requirements

So now you get a plane full of screaming kids, squashed up in a little space and arrive stressed, dihydrated and generally not in peak condition.

But that is the way it is, yes there is business class on some sectors but unfortunately VB (spirit of '89) and Jetstarrrrrrrrrr are taking over most of the regional jet routes. I have flown on VB once and was most impressed by the extra value I got with the extra landings and takoffs at both destinations (especially MML) and am most impressed that they seem to be giving the work experience boy a sector or two (scarcasm). I am very happy that with the demise of sunhine the QF are back to my local.

This may sound elitist but before I could afford it I never flew and I have seen several crashed heavy jets over the years and my father was one of the pax on a L1011 that wiped its bum on rotation. Now I can afford it I want to be safe.
I do not want to be famous as one of the victims of the second QANTAS crash. (yes they actually have gone splat, many, many years ago in Sydney in a Viscount...look it up)

[max]

I do not want to be famous as one of the victims of the second QANTAS crash. (yes they actually have gone splat, many, many years ago in Sydney in a Viscount...look it up)
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Well there were actually a few between 1950 and 1961, but what the heck.
Personally I don't think yesterday's circumstance have much bearing on the present. You are right though that it's a bums-in-seats game now. But flying is eminently affordable one way or the other for most of us now. Fact is more people get killed in the world by donkeys than in plane crashes. By whatever means they make the business viable so be it. I don't think the next Qantas safety incident will be attributable to offshore call operators.