New IR changes to take effect

[Jason[98.EL]]

i ahve a work place agreament with my employer and im one of the lucky ones as he has said that he will never go against it and more important we will have no pay cuts at all

infact he told me today that i will be getting another pay rise soon

and by the way i earn just under 50g plus super

like i said im a lucky one

jason

[svo347]

Personally i like the way my work was...
$2500 p/w clear.
Now thats going to change.Theres been talk about it all month.

[347Stroker]

Originally Posted by chief

There are laws in place to stop this from happening. A company or business can not divide its workforce up or split the complany for this prupose. It is illegal.

I think the IR reforms are good. That is all I am going say on this topic.

Time will tell.
I am an employer, and knowing that I dont have to pay such high rates of pay, well that would be attractive to some employers.
Take the banks for example, ever thinning out the workforce for more profits.
Lowering wages will do this also.....

[BA GT-HO]

Our EBA expires at the end of March, so naturally the company has been stalling so badly it's not funny. They have been stretching out 'negotiations' since last year, so no one is sure whether we will have a new EBA or we will all be on AWAs..

Time will tell, I am thinking of joining the RAAF anyway, the money is better, it's more exciting and you get paid to travel.

[MoreHPformyXR6]

I work in a goverment job as well @ this stage these changes dont affect me & our current agrement has just under three years to run. But it seems alot of the govt jobs now including transfering to another govt deptartment expect you to sign an AWA & new recruits appointed are having there conditions slowly corrowded.

[conordec]

stuff that...

i'll stay here in asia and pay bugger all of anything till i've enough to open my own business!!!! hehehhehehe....

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Although this has been a great catch cry of the ACTU, ALP and the leftist media in general - the concern has already been somewhat addressed within the public debate around the unfair dismissal laws. Never let the facts get in the way of a good fear campaign tho....

You realise to break a company up like that would see technical retrenchments upon shifting an employee out of the original company and in to the new trading company? Which would involve paying people out for all of their entitlements + redundancy payments...

Shifting someone's employment from one company to another is not as simple as it may sound...

One must also set up these "shelf" companies - legal fees @ hundreds of dollars per hour, accounting fees @ hundreds of dollars per hour, audit fees @ hundreds of dollars per hour...

Doesnt make for a great business case.

Not to mention an employee of a company with < 100 employees still has access to the federal unlawful dismissal remedies for discrimination and a whole host of other things - including the fact you cannot be fired for refusing to sign an AWA. But hey, let's not allow the facts to get in the way of a good fear campaign.

shelf company costs all of $800 to set up I've done it,you talk of fear campaigns and retoric, yet you fall for this flawed neo conservative ideology hook line and sinker,some will cop it hard others not so hard,I think as allways the truth lies somewhere in the middle,but closer to the left in this case

[Outbackjack]

You just have to read through the comments in this thread to see how divisive these new IR laws are. Many effects wont be felt until just after the next election..... Then Johnny will run with the "I have been given a mandate by the Australian people" line and continue to strip away hard earned terms and conditions even further. It is really frightening to see where Australia is being taken by his right wing ideology..... Soon we will be ofered 2 weeks anual leave (just like in America) No public holidays, sickness allowances stripped away. This will be soooo good for the anonamous men in grey suits who own mountains of shares. The one's we all work so hard to keep living in mansions.... See, divisive statements!!!

[347Stroker]

Hows the no union entry to sites, and the no union holidays or picnic days?
I can see in the future RDO's being classed as union holidays, and they will be gone too

[FordFan86]

Next on the agenda... A Bill of Rights..

[mik]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

You just have to read through the comments in this thread to see how divisive these new IR laws are. Many effects wont be felt until just after the next election..... Then Johnny will run with the "I have been given a mandate by the Australian people" line and continue to strip away hard earned terms and conditions even further. It is really frightening to see where Australia is being taken by his right wing ideology..... Soon we will be ofered 2 weeks anual leave (just like in America) No public holidays, sickness allowances stripped away. This will be soooo good for the anonamous men in grey suits who own mountains of shares. The one's we all work so hard to keep living in mansions.... See, divisive statements!!!

you hit the nail right on the head outbackjack

[MO]

My comment and everybody knows I'm a staunch unionist...there will be more bankruptcy's in the next 12 / 18 mths than OZ has ever had.

Labour will win the next election.

No the sky has'nt fallen in....but the carpet just been ripped out from under your feet.

This plan has been on the go since the early 80's and before...."The H.R.Nicholsen Society" check my previous posts for ISBN etc.

I have predicted severe and painful consequences for letting "The Rodent" have his way.

To all those that think it is a good thing you will be on your knees and praying for a union to help you out before too long.

If the Right get their way...we are about to join the third world for pay and conditions....as an example how would you like a job of cleaning the crap out of ppls ears as the only way you can make a living......albeit a miserable one.

Comrades united we stand devided we fall.

[347Stroker]

Originally Posted by John McMaster

My comment and everybody knows I'm a staunch unionist...there will be more bankruptcy's in the next 12 / 18 mths than OZ has ever had.

Labour will win the next election.

No the sky has'nt fallen in....but the carpet just been ripped out from under your feet.

This plan has been on the go since the early 80's and before...."The H.R.Nicholsen Society" check my previous posts for ISBN etc.

I have predicted severe and painful consequences for letting "The Rodent" have his way.

To all those that think it is a good thing you will be on your knees and praying for a union to help you out before too long.

If the Right get their way...we are about to join the third world for pay and conditions....as an example how would you like a job of cleaning the crap out of ppls ears as the only way you can make a living......albeit a miserable one.

Comrades united we stand devided we fall.

I am with you brother....

I wonder just hom many on here realise what the worker, and collective unionism has really done for them in the past....and I bet if they did there would be many more financial members.

[coyote]

But my boss is a mongeral, will not give me time off, time off in lew of working late, or weekends, will not give me extra for working late, starting early, talk about no leave loading if I don't work I don't get paid, yet he still expects me to meet budgets, pay for all my own expenses, wont even cover me for my mistakes, they come straight out of my paypacket before I even see it.

I think I will give him an uppercut just so he knows i exist

Ouch that hurt.

[MO]

Originally Posted by coyote

But my boss is a mongeral, will not give me time off, time off in lew of working late, or weekends, will not give me extra for working late, starting early, talk about no leave loading if I don't work I don't get paid, yet he still expects me to meet budgets, pay for all my own expenses, wont even cover me for my mistakes, they come straight out of my paypacket before I even see it.

I think I will give him an uppercut just so he knows i exist

Ouch that hurt.

Twit...I know you're self employed.

If you wish to add a logical comment to this thread you are more than welcome...if however your desire is to promote stupidity.....rack off!!!!!!!!

[Work Horse]

I didn't vote for either of the major parties at the last election.
I run a business and employ staff, so like a lot of people in this thread have said I'm "safe". But that does not make me happy because I have friends and family and a child who may be effected. Hell their are a lot of people I don't even know I'm unhappy for. Wish I wasn't such a bleeding heart :hihi:

I don't see the IR reforms as very Australian. They are not egalitarian, no chance of a "fair go" for some.
We are told we need these changes to stay competitive in the global market. Competing with whom, manufactures in China, subsudised agriculture from Europe and the USA, call centres in India, who are we kidding?

Australia is a fantastic country, best in the world IMHO and I've seen a few. One day the stuff we dig out of/grow from the ground is not going to support us in the style we have become accustomed.
We need to elect governments that will look to our future. We need to develop specialised industries that will protest us from the ravages of globalisation not make us victims of it.

You don't have to be an economist to know that the boom we are in has to be followed by a bust. It's just knowing exactly when and how bad it will be, that are difficult. When the bust comes and unemployment rises, is when people will really start complaining about the new IR regs. Then unionism (that's still legal) will rise and the other mob will get a go at seeing what they can do.

Mr Howard is a very shrewd politician. What a shame all the effort put into this short sited bill couldn't have been channelled into something for the long term good of the country.

:

[gtfpv]

not one comment on the real issues yet . how about a normal 38 hour week from say wed to sun . no ot here.
what about last month they passed a law allowing trade and professional immigration papers to suddenly comply with australian qualification standards . they claim shortage of tradesman . and need to employ from overseas . so all of a sudden a philipino electrician is qualified to work as an electrician here . i'm niot knocking that . but what about australian compliance .so a philipino builder comes here on an invite his hours are 40 hrs pw . wed to sun . @ 12.75 /hr. AS regulations says who.
THE GOVT CONSTANTLY CRIES . SHORTAGE OF TRADESMAN . the media just advertised for 130 tradesman to volunteer their time to go to cairns to help out the cyclone recovery . they got 31,000 applicants . sounds like we have a real shortage here . it is going to be HELL HERE watch this space . WAIT 5 YEARS THE PLACE WILL BE FLOODED WITH LOW PAID IMMIGRANTS . COMPETING WITH OUR CHILDREN TRYING TO START OUT.

[svo347]

not bad for a first poster.but try keeping it above board as the unions have actually made alot of lives better in australia.
As for the slime remark.... Back to the gutter you slide

[gtfpv]

we must remember here . it is not so much about us . but our country . our children and our nationality . we all deserve a go . do not become an elitist . we want people to come here to be australian with a fair go not sit back and watch them work for less . taking our standard of living down . believe me that is what the capitalists want . (more profit greater wealth ) dont fall for it people .

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by raindog

****edited***

Perhaps, RAINDOG, the first improvement you make to yourself is to learn how to spell and punctuate at a 5th grade level. THEN you can roll out the personal insults towards some one that took a generic swipe at an agenda that they despise.

Please note that I criticized you without name calling or obscenities. Arguments seem to have much more clout that way....... Dont you think?

_2:

[Des]

Originally Posted by 347Stroker

I would think twice about unfair dismissal and 100 employees rules too.
Companys will break themselves up into many holding companys and have lower than 100 employees in each, so theres unfair dismissal sorted...

Don't know how much of this will happen. It'd cost too much to employ (or contract) all the people required to ensure the separation of the business. Pay "X" amount of extra wages, or maybe have to put up with an employee who doesn't suit your needs for 6 months or so? Besides, the casual work force will increase dramatically, easier to turn them over.
The new IR laws won't spell the end of the world, remember we hold the ultimate power, we're the voters. If they don't perform, bye bye and hello opposition.

[BlueRaven]

Okay, as I am an idiot, I need a few things explained to me.

With the wages lowering, will the cost of products lower as well? Will bread and milk be cheaper, higher or the same? (Obviously on an eventual scale - I don't expect any changes in the next 12months).

From what basic information I know....it sounds like the only secure people will be above that 85k threshold, and those that are completely relied upon at the workplace.

[parawolf]

It is unlikely that prices will drop unless there is a monster deflation on the Australian economy.

[BlueRaven]

could that happen?

[parawolf]

Unlikely, unless employers make massive AWA changes, sending thousands out of work and onto the picket line, and thusly making those thousands bankrupt. Then after about 12 months we might see the economy dip.

People are too far in debt to last that long out of employment. Plus the poorer are having more children, which means the government will have more mouths to feed. It would take 12+months for a blip to occur unless it is a MASSIVE shift in which all union departments unity wholely and completely - *AND* employers make all these people out of work at the same time - *AND* a large portion of these people get made bankrupt.

House prices will fall (particularlly inner city) first before bread and milk fall.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by nugget378

shelf company costs all of $800 to set up I've done it,you talk of fear campaigns and retoric, yet you fall for this flawed neo conservative ideology hook line and sinker,some will cop it hard others not so hard,I think as allways the truth lies somewhere in the middle,but closer to the left in this case

Well first up che, dont make the assumption that im simply taking a liberal party pamphlet as gospel - ive not taken anything at face value. Okay, it's probably evident from the nature of my posts where my ideological beliefs lay - but dont take that to mean i simply take the "flawed neo conservative ideology" hook, line and sinker. I take a great interest in all things political and always evaluate both sides of the fence. It may not be an educated opinion - but its an informed one.

Yes I realise how simple it is to establish a shelf company but there's a little more to it in the scenario which has been put forward. Taking a company of 3000 employees and splitting that into 30 seperate companies (i.e. with the intention of ensuring you are not subject to unfair dismissal laws) is going to cost a little more than $800 x 30 - the reasons for this ive already covered.

Originally Posted by 347stroker

I wonder just hom many on here realise what the worker, and collective unionism has really done for them in the past....and I bet if they did there would be many more financial members.

Look ive got no problems with the concept of collectivism. Perhaps potential financial members of these entites have been disheartened with what the modern union has become? Perhaps there are more "neo conservatives" like myself who simply dont share the collective ideology? One may suggest that the latter is the case - symptomatic of a workforce like Australias which is, generally, highly skilled.

One thing which ive been sorely disappointed with regarding the ACTU's response to the reforms has been the "stick in the mud" approach. Look - of course they are going to fight any legislation which shifts the balance of power further towards employers - and so they should.

But this is where it has ended.

Of course they should be lobbying to have these laws hacked back - its one of their primary roles. But that's a long term focus - the next election obviously being the shortest time frame they can target. So what happens in the mean time? They divert their resources to telling the Australian worker that are worthless and, for the time being, they should just keel over and die.

What a load of rubbish.

Why arent they out there empowering their members and workers in general? Why arent they providing guidance on how a worker should approach the process of AWAs? There are still rights enscribed within the legislation - why arent the unions out there telling their members what their rights are and where they can take a stand? Is this not their role - or is greg combet too interested in wining/dining beazley to plot the overthrow of the howard government?

Maybe this is why the unions are struggling to get membership? Where's the presence at the grass roots level? If they devoted a fraction of the resources they devote to media stunts and press conferences to educating members at the membership level - this country might actually be able to move forward without the pendulum swinging in either the employer or the employee's favour.

Shock, horror - a win-win for employers and employees?? Doesnt exactly work in the union's favour does it?

[Des]

Originally Posted by BlueRaven

could that happen?

Possibly. As wages drop, then consumers will have less disposible income. To maintain profit margins, you then need to lower your retail price and sell more stock. If you start having to lower your price below cost, then you source cheaper stock. This is where it gets scarey, cheaper stock may not be Aust. sourced, and it may not be of comparable quality. If this keeps happening and almost all of your goods become cheap imports, you will lose technology (both physical and intellectual) and your living standards will lower dramatically. Then the IMF moves in and starts selling off your natural resourses to pay off your debts. If it gets that far, your a third world country and ИИИИed.
This is the "worst case scenario".
We do have the ability to ensure this doesn't happen.

[parawolf]

Why arent they out there empowering their members and workers in general? Why arent they providing guidance on how a worker should approach the process of AWAs? There are still rights enscribed within the legislation - why arent the unions out there telling their members what their rights are and where they can take a stand? Is this not their role - or is greg combet too interested in wining/dining beazley to plot the overthrow of the howard government?

This is my biggest issue with the FSU - unfortunately I don't have time to be directly involved with the Union - but I do pay my fees. Apart from the regular newsletter I don't see what they are getting me. I have had no communication since I joined apart from the newsletter which I barely read these days, and i'm just disillusioned about it all now.

Personally I wouldn't know the union rep on this floor or in this building.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by BlueRaven

With the wages lowering, will the cost of products lower as well? Will bread and milk be cheaper, higher or the same? (Obviously on an eventual scale - I don't expect any changes in the next 12months).

Possibly...

The price of "bread and milk" as pointed out by para, is more to do with the level of inflation (or deflation) in the country. Inflation is really a result of where a country's production sits in terms of its capacity. As an economy approaches full capacity, inflation tends to rise. But its important for an economy to keep growing... too slow and it starts going backwards (recession, potential for depression)... but if it grows too fast you get hyperinflation which erodes the value of the money being earnt. Look at the current unemployment rates (very low) and the interest rate policy of the RBA (gradual increasing of interest rates) and you can deduct that we really are pushing the prudential limits of economic growth at the moment.

The basis behind the ir reforms is to increase capacity. Increase the amount our economy can grow whilst avoiding all-evil inflation. So to put it into terms of bread and milk...

The price will probably remain unchanged... may increase slightly, as a bit of inflation is a sign of a healthy economy (current fiscal policy targets around 2%-3%pa... look back to 70s/80s and inflation was double-digit). But what you will have is more bread and milk being produced - and more people buying it because more people will have jobs.

[GreenMachine]

ANyone posing in this thread actually read the legislation?