Hitlers Stealth fighter

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by Envi XR8

The Germans developed the MP44, world's first assault rifle. Looks a hell of a lot like a AK47...... they had a attachment for it that fired bullets around corners, and night vision equipment for soldiers and armoured vehicles by 1945. They developed and operationally used the first jet fighter, the ME262 and bomber, the Arado 234...and the Heinkel HE162 fighter had an ejection seat.... they were the first to use a rocket/missle, the V1/V2 programs, against an enemy country....and in 1944 they developed an air-to-air rocket that they used against the US air force (the Japanese had something similiar). Their engineers and scientists were, and even now are, generally ahead of current thought and were highly sort after by all allied countries at the end of the war.

Cluey bunch of people them Germans. Just what the Government of that era stood for was vulgar, and it was smashed down as it had to be. Had all this type of technology been put into use for peaceful purposes, as their leader, Hitler would have gone down as one of the greatest statesmen in history, instead of a homicidal & genocidal maniac, and a coward who blew his brains out. Although, the military requirement for technology opens doors that drives the eventual domestication of that technology. The internet started as a communication system for the US army.

great post

the germans made great leaps when it came to medical transplants as well, they really were great scientists

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by 84ltd

This may not be everyones cup of tea but it really is interesting doco on the German technology that if succesful could possibly have the outcome of the war. The Horton 229 and the bigger brother the Horton 18 were generations ahead of their time and quite frankly amazing.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbCgDidqGUU
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aj_V...eature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jdlw...eature=related
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR-Md...eature=related
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqLGy...eature=related

that was absolutely incredible , thanks for that . i enjoyed and learned a bit too.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

great post

the germans made great leaps when it came to medical transplants as well, they really were great scientists

Yeah, but then they had millions of captive 'patients' to practice on.

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Yeah, but then they had millions of captive 'patients' to practice on.

there was lots of these "volunteers" used in the rest of the world by previous generations as well. just like military testing various substances on their own troops (see LSD and amphetamines). just imagine if they found a way the weaponise LSD

[My poor XF]

The Germans were using radio guided bombs as early as 1943 called Fritz X and used them to sink the Italian battleship Roma so it wouldn't fall into allied hands. They also damaged several American ships with these weapons.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

fantastic little bit of history there! thoroughly enjoyed it, cheers

[Road_Warrior]

Hitler will go down in history as one of the most incompetent military leaders of all time (as well as his more well-known genocidal douchebaggery). It is an example of why the 'elected' Executive should never interfere in the appointed Administration. If he actually listened to his Generals and trusted their judgement, some of the key battles of WW2 could have followed a very different path. His meddling in the ME262 program is a classic example.

I think the outcome of the war would have been the same, just more prolonged and savage - all the wonder weapons in the world would not have stopped the giant military-industrial war machines the United States and the Soviet Union from opening their cans of whoop *** on Hitler's Germany. He knew it too.

[1970XW351]

Very interesting stuff, thanks for posting up.

[whatever]

I think that the nazi gear was generally superior to anything the allies had. Hitler had a large part in the loss though a lot of their losses could also be attributed to pure industrial output.

A good example of this is with tanks on the eastern front. Nazi panthers were far superior to the Soviet T-34s. The T-34 was cheaper to produce and Russia had the industrial means to produce great quantities of them. I don't know the true numbers are but because the soviets concentrated on volume they were able to produce far larger numbers and could overwhelm the germans due to this.

Being a land locked smallish european nation they also had problems with obtaining raw materials (at least toward the end of the war). This above is a little simplistic though what I'm trying to get at is that the superior technology they had wasn't going to help them win unless the had the means for sufficient production and time to get the bugs out of the technology in time to win such a large scale war.

[Dave_Obsession]

What a fascinating doco!!! Thanks for sharing!!!

[FPV8U]

Watched this the other night on AUSTAR very interisting as are many doco's on WW2 and Weapons development of that time.

[XR6WGN]

I also enjoy watching the History Channel "doco's" (hate the Foxtel commercials, hate the term )

I'd have foxtel in a moment IF I could choose the channels I want, not the packages they want you to have!!

Anyway this is not a Foxtel bashing thread so I'll just say thanks for the links and I'll go and watch it again.

Oh Uncle Ken, your Dad flew the Mosquito, my Dad fixed them. I can always remember him saying that.

[Peuty]

Saturn V rocket was designed by a Nazi.

To be a fly on the wall in some of those labs - unreal.

Though I think Stalin's nuclear powered lighthouses take the cake. He sure loved his radiation that bloke.

[XR6WGN]

Originally Posted by Peuty

Saturn V rocket was designed by a Nazi.

Von Braun was his name - the Americans snuck him out of Germany after the war.

There was another interesting documetary on recently that whilst the American's had snuck VB out of Germany, there was another German Engineer who was snapped up by the Russians - the rivalry between the two engineers virtually lead to all the technology leaps in space travel during the cold war.

And yes - basically the Saturn 5 was a V2 on a S__t load of steroids

[Franco Cozzo]

That was very interesting, what do you guys reckon today would be like if Germany had won WWII?

[grandpa_spec_F6]

sehr unterschiedlich?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

That was very interesting, what do you guys reckon today would be like if Germany had won WWII?

From a NSW viewpoint and having spoken to quite a few of our Highway Patrol I thought they did win!

[Envi XR8]

Originally Posted by flappist

If you go to the US Air Force Museum in Ohio you can see a lot of WW2 German aviation weaponry including air to air missiles :O

I second the thought that we are all lucky that Hitler was not a good strategist.

They have a 262 and a Komet at the Australian War Memorial. Have to get there one day.

Thankfully, Hitler never finished one military campaign before starting another, and some of his biggest blunders were not really military ones. Had the Germans embraced the cilivians in captured Soviet terrorities, the war in the East would have been much easier, and probably won.

Originally Posted by flappist

In the beginning a large percentage of USA actually supported the Nazi as they had a lot of similar views e.g. racism, protectionism, global expansion and power projection.
It was several years into the war 11/12/1941 before USA actually committed to the European Theatre.

well Time magazine voted Hitler man of the year in 1933, and the American nazi party wanted the US to enter the war on the German side. FDR was itching to get into Europe, but even after the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor, he was hogged tided as most Americans saw the war in Europe as England's war, and the Pacific war as the US war. It wasn't until Hitler declared war on the US that war became truly a global conflict with all major combatant nations from each side all fighting each other and FDR was given a free hand by Congress to wage war in both theatres. Although the Pacific was not really a priority until 'late 44/45. Actually, the Pacific war was lost by mid '42.

Originally Posted by flappist

I wonder if Hitler had actually got the V3 operational (the first ICBM which was capable of hitting USA from Europe) whether USA would have pulled its head in and concentrated on the Pacific allowing the Nazis free reign to squash UK and then concentrate on USSR........

I don't believe anything would have changed. With US ground forces already committed on the ground in Europe by that stage, and fighting on 3 fronts, the Germans were heading south in any case. Having the weapons was one thing... and they had plenty of equipment to wage war with, but to wage war the military must have fuel and trained people to use the equipment, and by the time of the V1/V2 and any subsequent superweapon, like the America Bomber, the germans had very little of either of these.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

That was very interesting, what do you guys reckon today would be like if Germany had won WWII?

A practical and historical impossibility, but I think what you would have seen if Nazi Germany managed to subdue the UK and force the United States and Russia to sue for peace, is a "western bloc" of puppet Nazi regimes in Western Europe (kinda like the EU is now hurrr hurrr) with an expansionist view on territorial sovereignty for the European landmass and sealanes. Think of how the US was with the Soviets during the Cold War and I think you'd be pretty close.

Also, not everything the Nazis had was the shiz.

Originally Posted by Envi XR8

Actually, the Pacific war was lost by mid '42.

lol, wut. When you say "lost by mid '42" I hope you mean lost for the Japanese, as was the case.

[Envi XR8]

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

That was very interesting, what do you guys reckon today would be like if Germany had won WWII?

Perish the thought! Any German victory would have been total. I think if he had of found himself in a position to, Hitler would have also eventually engaged the Japs as well. His view of the asian population would have been quite dim I believe.

[BHDOGS]

I don't think Hitler was a totally crap strategists in the beginning of the war all his plans worked perfectly the attack on Russian the invasion of France id say his mental state deteriorating contributed more to his stupid decisions rather then him just being an idiot as somebody said if he had of never gone to war wed all be singing his praises most likely.

[Envi XR8]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

lol, wut. When you say "lost by mid '42" I hope you mean lost for the Japanese, as was the case.

Of course. What did you think I meant? With their carrier fleet (or most of it) on the bottom of the Pacific, after Midway and Coral Sea, in a war waged by navies, it was pretty clear the Japs were in trouble by mid/late 42.

Their fanatical approach to fighting, and total lack of self-preservation was their greatest weapon.

[Envi XR8]

Originally Posted by Uncle_Ken

I have a copy of my Dads air log. His most interesting entry was, in 1945

'Chased by ME 262 , ran like hell.'

UK

Can't blame the man for that. 30mm cannons are very good reason to run. That would be an awesome thing to read. Was he a pathfinder? There were limited numbers of 262 nightfighters by feb/march 45. What date was it?

Thats really interesting... thanks for sharing.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by XR6WGN

Von Braun was his name - the Americans snuck him out of Germany after the war.

There was another interesting documetary on recently that whilst the American's had snuck VB out of Germany, there was another German Engineer who was snapped up by the Russians - the rivalry between the two engineers virtually lead to all the technology leaps in space travel during the cold war.

And yes - basically the Saturn 5 was a V2 on a S__t load of steroids

I think you are thinking of Sergei Korolev, but you might notice his name isnt German however.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Korolyov

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Envi XR8

Of course. What did you think I meant? With their carrier fleet (or most of it) on the bottom of the Pacific, after Midway and Coral Sea, in a war waged by navies, it was pretty clear the Japs were in trouble by mid/late 42.

Their fanatical approach to fighting, and total lack of self-preservation was their greatest weapon.

Heh, sorry. I thought you might have been one of those IJN "for the fatherland" fanatics. You are quite right, the US Navy was waging a war of attrition which the IJN simply could not afford and never recovered from with the loss of its 4 fleet carriers (and more importantly, the carrier airwings) at Midway. Even though the USN was on the back foot to begin with - it was never going to last, no matter how much they got belted in the beginning.

The IJN doctrine and obsession with a "decisive battle" was utterly stupid and cost them at Midway dearly.

[XR Martin]

I think you will find the 262 would have never made an influence, regardless of Hilter's meddling
The engines were simply too unreliable (frequent flame outs and they required replacement every 50 hours of flight time at best)
Sure it first flew in 1943, but it wasnt until late 1944 that they could produce enough engines for the aircraft.

Same goes for the Panther tank, great design but terrible reliablity.

Most of the late German tanks were only effective in defensive operations, where they could position it in a farmhouse and pick off a dozen allied tanks before they could even get close. In offensive operations they were basically a failure, as they'd just break down, and run out of fuel.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

I don't think Hitler was a totally crap strategists in the beginning of the war all his plans worked perfectly the attack on Russian the invasion of France id say his mental state deteriorating contributed more to his stupid decisions rather then him just being an idiot as somebody said if he had of never gone to war wed all be singing his praises most likely.

Mate in the beginning of the war the architects of his war plans were his ranking Generals and general staff - his involvement was peripheral. Later on when he wanted to assume responsibility for more control and direction of strategic plans was when things started going pear shaped. And then of course he blamed his generals for stuffing things up and meddled in military planning even more, so it was more or less a snowball effect. Operation Barbarossa is a good example - he wanted it, and he got it, because of a prejudicial hatred of Ruskies but founded on no strategic or militaristic grounds - and it arguably cost him his beloved Third Reich.

And yes, he was a clown. First class. Ever heard of Mien Kampf? That's his autobiography when he was incarcerated in the 1920's - its worth a read. It gives you an insight into the ramblings of a wierdo who these days would be locked up.

[Envi XR8]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Heh, sorry. I thought you might have been one of those IJN "for the fatherland" fanatics. You are quite right, the US Navy was waging a war of attrition which the IJN simply could not afford and never recovered from with the loss of its 4 fleet carriers (and more importantly, the carrier airwings) at Midway. Even though the USN was on the back foot to begin with - it was never going to last, no matter how much they got belted in the beginning.

The IJN doctrine and obsession with a "decisive battle" was utterly stupid and cost them at Midway dearly.

it's all good mate. My grandfather was in the RAAF. Built and defended airfields all over the pacific. Not an IJN fanatic.. by any stretch lol

[Envi XR8]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

I think you will find the 262 would have never made an influence, regardless of Hilter's meddling
The engines were simply too unreliable (frequent flame outs and they required replacement every 50 hours of flight time at best)
Sure it first flew in 1943, but it wasnt until late 1944 that they could produce enough engines for the aircraft.

Adolf Galland has stated in interviews that had the 262 gone into production in asap as a pure fighter, they could have inflicted huge losses on the USAAF daylight raids and ground that offensive into the ground. The US escort fighters, which in 43 were mainly early P51s and P47s wouldn't have got near the 262, and it only took 3 hits from a 20mm or 30mm cannon to bring down a B17. It may not have won the war, but the USAAF would not have been able to sustain that level of loss.

There is a documented sortie by a pilot named Urban Drew, who flew a famous P51D mustang called 'Detroit Miss' He fired over 1000 rounds at a 262, and never hit it, before it broke off and left him in its wake.

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Same goes for the Panther tank, great design but terrible reliablity.

Most of the late German tanks were only effective in defensive operations, where they could position it in a farmhouse and pick off a dozen allied tanks before they could even get close. In offensive operations they were basically a failure, as they'd just break down, and run out of fuel.

not so sure about that. The Ardennes Offensive proved the offensive potential of the late war tanks. They were underpowered and a lack of fuel was their biggest threat until the weather cleared, then the US Jabos were their greatest threat.

in one case, a king tiger parked in a street in Berlin in 1945 took out 39 Russian tanks, including some of their latest JS3 Stalin tanks, so their defensive ability is beyond question.

[dannyxm]

Interesting doco isnt it.

One interesting thing about it was it was partialy made of wood as the Mosquito was (as well as other planes of the time)

As Herman Goering said of the Mosquito and the timber!:
"In 1940 I could at least fly as far as Glasgow in most of my aircraft, but not now! It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito. I turn green and yellow with envy.
The British, who can afford aluminium better than we can, knock together a beautiful wooden aircraft that every piano factory over there is building, and they give it a speed which they have now increased yet again. What do you make of that?
There is nothing the British do not have. They have the geniuses and we have the nincompoops. After the war's over I'm going to buy a British radio set - then at least I'll own something that has always worked."

Also when you look to German tanks in WW2 they (for the most part) were far better then the Allied tanks. Unfortunatly for the Germans they could not build them quick enough to send out to the front as well as keep the bloody things running.
By sheer volume the Sherman tanks (from USA) outclassed them. Quantity over quality.