is this a OH&S / Workcover Issue?? - Page 2

Scott · 01-07-2009, 12:18 PM

No issue there, people should have the right to raise kids how they see fit without fear of being dobbed on for the slightest thing.

I grew up in family business' and I can tell you that from the age of 9 I was driving cars, light trucks, slashers etc. Using all sorts of garden & power tools along with a raft of dangerous chemicals.

When I was younger than that Dad had me crawling through all the confined spaces he couldn't get into and along the way, he set up small things for me to manage as my own business. Simple stuff like the Coke Machine was my first business, I ordered the stock, I emptied the cash, I filled the change slots, I kept it clean and I paid the power bills for it. At 10 years of age I ran a profitable business - not as profitable as my sidelines of washing cars, selling hubcaps, waiting or working a bar but at that age, Dad had instilled enough acumen in me that I was set on the right track for life.

The kids in that newsagency will likely take their turn behind the register and other facets of the business in good time and will enter the "great wide world" with a real skill in their bag.... no, not operating a cash register but a skill in understanding business and what it takes to make things happen.

More power to them, should be more of it.

4Vman · 01-07-2009, 12:22 PM

The laws relating to OHS and an unsafe workplace apply to families just as much as they do to employer/employee's when it comes to your place of employment, basically anyone on the premises is under its umbrella.
As long as the workplace is "safe" and "complaint" with the appropriate rules there's nothing to worry about...

paule11 · 01-07-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP006

No issue there, people should have the right to raise kids how they see fit without fear of being dobbed on for the slightest thing.

I grew up in family business' and I can tell you that from the age of 9 I was driving cars, light trucks, slashers etc. Using all sorts of garden & power tools along with a raft of dangerous chemicals.

When I was younger than that Dad had me crawling through all the confined spaces he couldn't get into and along the way, he set up small things for me to manage as my own business. Simple stuff like the Coke Machine was my first business, I ordered the stock, I emptied the cash, I filled the change slots, I kept it clean and I paid the power bills for it. At 10 years of age I ran a profitable business - not as profitable as my sidelines of washing cars, selling hubcaps, waiting or working a bar but at that age, Dad had instilled enough acumen in me that I was set on the right track for life.

The kids in that newsagency will likely take their turn behind the register and other facets of the business in good time and will enter the "great wide world" with a real skill in their bag.... no, not operating a cash register but a skill in understanding business and what it takes to make things happen.

More power to them, should be more of it.

Should be more of this we now get apprentices who have never held a screwdriver or saw

Stattic · 01-07-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Work Horse

OH&S, Workcover and Worksafe protects employees, the kids are not employees so not covered.

You would need to make a complaint to the Child Protection Service at the Department of Human Services. They have to follow up on any complaint of abuse or neglect.

Not sure if you wish to go that far, are the kids in any more danger than they would be in a busy household?

not true, worksafe has power over anyone in a workplace, like a civilian in a construction site without a whitecard can be refused entry and if they are let in, the builder can get in big trouble from worksafe
im pretty sure they would have some jurisdiction in this case but honestly im not sure theres that much of a hazard providing people take care...i feel sorry for them, they obviously cant afford for one of the parents to stay at home so they are working in tougher economical times while still spending time with their kids

Melz · 01-07-2009, 12:38 PM

I think its on a business per business basis. I know the site I work for bans children from the site altogether due to heavy machinery and a few other reasons.

I remember when I was a little midget dad took me to work and I sat drawing with the receptionist! Back in those days he worked in a chemical warehouse.

Mmm daddy fan I have some more of that yummy triflurilan?

I think the days of taking your kid to work are nearing the end, due to everyone afraid of litigation if the child gets hurt and what have you....

Sam_Boss260 · 01-07-2009, 12:42 PM

These comments of "they should not have had kids" or "they should wait to run a business after the family has ben raised" type of comments are rubbish.

Agreed, there are plenty of small, family run businesses out there and as the name implies, they have families. These people are not doing this or the hell of it, but are doing it to provide a livelihood for their family, ie this is how they put food on the table. And if that means juggling the family with the business well then so be it.

I would let them be.

4Vman · 01-07-2009, 12:53 PM

Some light reading for the "experts"... pretty much covers everything in Vic

http://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/wps/w...e_guidance.pdf

Ive been through this with a former business partner, in the end i had to ban his kids from my factory because they required too much supervision, they'd break things, cut themselves, start my forklift, stuff up my computers and generally caused too much disruption to work and to my staff, and i wasnt about to loose my house and go to jail if one got run over by a truck or forklift, because as a Director i was legally responsible for their safety while on the premises.......
Each workplace is totally different though.

Iggypoppin' · 01-07-2009, 12:58 PM

I opened this thread and was greeted by instant negativity. Why can't opinions be expressed without insults/criticism aimed at others? Just like many other threads on here, this one will get closed because no-one could play nice. Not what anyone wants to see, but it begs the question, why can't we all just get along?

b2tf · 01-07-2009, 01:11 PM

I agree that there are a number of people who have responded to this thread who need to take a look at their posting style. You can still get your point across without having to be aggressive, and the name calling and insults will stop now or warnings will be issued. It's not neccesary.

As for the original question/point of the thread, I think it would come down to a duty of care issue with the parents. If they weren't their kids and rather they were employees, the employees would have the right to raise the issue if they felt it was a risk to their safety whilst at work. Perhaps a little more than meets the eye to this one but the OP is within his rights to ask the question.

FTE72 · 01-07-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP006

No issue there, people should have the right to raise kids how they see fit without fear of being dobbed on for the slightest thing.

I grew up in family business' and I can tell you that from the age of 9 I was driving cars, light trucks, slashers etc. Using all sorts of garden & power tools along with a raft of dangerous chemicals.

When I was younger than that Dad had me crawling through all the confined spaces he couldn't get into and along the way, he set up small things for me to manage as my own business. Simple stuff like the Coke Machine was my first business, I ordered the stock, I emptied the cash, I filled the change slots, I kept it clean and I paid the power bills for it. At 10 years of age I ran a profitable business - not as profitable as my sidelines of washing cars, selling hubcaps, waiting or working a bar but at that age, Dad had instilled enough acumen in me that I was set on the right track for life.

The kids in that newsagency will likely take their turn behind the register and other facets of the business in good time and will enter the "great wide world" with a real skill in their bag.... no, not operating a cash register but a skill in understanding business and what it takes to make things happen.

More power to them, should be more of it.

Agree 100% with this post, and I would wager many of the successfully self employed or business owners around here would have had a similar upbringing. I certainly did.
Any environment may be considered as hazardous, but safety is relative to each situation. How many people have a big screen plasma on a TV cabinet without it being secured and kids around? I bet there is many.I see that as no different to the 20kg Manifold that you are concerned about. There are plenty of "what if's" for every situation
We have enough cotton wool wrapped around us OP, If you feel like the kids are being abused in this situation, do something about it. From what you described however, I would say "so what".

xygt01 · 01-07-2009, 01:35 PM

ok well i could sit here all day and make comment on everything that every one has said but i wont
and im sure with this i will get a load of comments back at me to but here is my opinion and its only an opinion

i think that you being worried for the kids is not a bad thing bu in reality its not any of yoru issue i am sure that the family means well for thewre children and have there reasons for the kids being there wether it be the day care was closed or what ever
i wouldnt go sticking my nose into there business as far as going to oh&s work cover and the likes because how would you feal if they where closed dowor had the kids taken away from them ........
no on the other hand if you really wanted todo something you could quitely have a work to the parents about your concerns for the safty ect

BUT be warned if you do and the parent you speak to gets up set anything could happen any way best of luck

Smoke Pursuit · 01-07-2009, 01:50 PM

I grew up in family businesses and now run them myself... I don't see the issue other then its perhaps a little unprofessional to have 2 kids behind the counter at that age. Ive been in our family businesses since the age of 4, and started working in one of our retail outlets at the age of 11, i never had any dramas ohter then the fact that i am now a workaholic, but extremely well rewarded!

At the end of the day they arent breaking any laws having the kids there, whether it be OWHS or a family services issue. I am sure as parents they take precautions to make sure the kids are safe!

4Vman · 01-07-2009, 01:54 PM

At the end of the day you need to remember 1 thing, if the child gets hurt at home you deal with it in private, if the child gets hurt at work the Govt take can control of it and worksafe will investigate it.... the penalties and liabilities for an unsafe work place are staggering..
One of the main reasons i prohibit young children onto my premises other than as well supervised visitors is the extreme liability placed on the Directors, and as we all know kids are inquisitive and not as careful as adults....

Food for thought...

flappist · 01-07-2009, 02:07 PM

I am just completing my report to the OHS gestapo about the OP who has admitted that he placed a heavy parcel in a position where it could have been affected by GRAVITY and hurt children.

Isaac Newton has 21 days to reply as to why he believes he is not responsible since he first discovered this dangerous force before legal action will be taken and all workplaces that are found to contain gravity closed and all parcels that show any signs of weight prohibited.

4Vman · 01-07-2009, 02:10 PM

Gestapo is right... i've dealt with them a number of times... don't allow extension cords to lye on the ground, its a BIG no no...!

fiery · 01-07-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XW_GS

The newsagency/post office at the end of my street, has his 2 kids, one a newborn and the other a couple of years old, staying behind the counter whilst mum dad and a few workers are at it running the shop.

Now the baby is in a bouncer and the toddler runs around playing with his toys.

Now remember it is a Newsagency/Post office set up.

i once sent off a 20 kilo Clevo manifold via the newsagency... basically i place the item onto the counter, he picks it up weighs it, labels it and then stacks it behind the counter...yes where the kids are...

1. Stock or post items can easily fall onto the kids
2. there are 3 to 4 people working in there most times, easy to step on a kid on the floor.

A friend said there is nothing you can do about it, i say crap.

Is there a law against this happening in a work place environment?

This would depend on a number of facts which is hard to determine unless you are supervising the business on a daily (hourly) basis for a pre-determined amount of time (let's just say, mmmm how about a week).

I grew up in a general store that had a post office attached and we regularly had cousins staying with us that were younger. My parents and their employees used commonsense to put heavy articles in a place that could not fall (you know there is actually a 'take care of customers item' policy in most post offices - granted not all - but most).. If postal items in particular are placed where
a) a child could pull it from the position- therefore dropping it onto him/her self or other children
b) mmmm can't think of b right now.. so will stick with a)
Then this would be an issue but as you have not spent the pre-determined amount of hours / time observing how these people conduct their business I guess it would be a fair call to say,
a) mind your own business and worry about yourself and your loved ones
b) ring child services and feel horrible if the family then suffer with the aggravation they would be going through
c) ring OH&S and again feel not so great
d) speak with the owners quietly and politely expressing concerns but don't go telling them it is wrong or how they should be doing things - simply express concerns in regards to the item you posted.

Totally up to you how you deal with it but it seems quite obvious that a fair amount of members seem to feel it is something to ignore.

Cheers

MO · 01-07-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

I am just completing my report to the OHS gestapo about the OP who has admitted that he placed a heavy parcel in a position where it could have been affected by GRAVITY and hurt children.

Isaac Newton has 21 days to reply as to why he believes he is not responsible since he first discovered this dangerous force before legal action will be taken and all workplaces that are found to contain gravity closed and all parcels that show any signs of weight prohibited.

Now that will get it sorted once and for all especially if Pythagoras gets involved!

SB076 · 01-07-2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Gestapo is right... i've dealt with them a number of times... don't allow extension cords to lye on the ground, its a BIG no no...!

That would be never leave a properly tagged and tested extension cord on the ground wouldnt it?

That is why I dont want any more government intervention with stuff like this - The parents would understand the business and understand what their kids can and cant do - we dont need (or I dont want) the government coming in and passing more laws or conducting more audits.

How is the above scenario (posted by the op) different to having kids in supermarkets - yep they can trip you up and pull something heavy down on top of them but ultimately its up to the parents to ensure their safety.

GT69 · 01-07-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB076

That would be never leave a properly tagged and tested extension cord on the ground wouldnt it?

How is the above scenario (posted by the op) different to having kids in supermarkets - yep they can trip you up and pull something heavy down on top of them but ultimately its up to the parents to ensure their safety.

Well its not. But a reflection upon society in general will no doubt bring alot of business's in line with how 4Vman has set himself up (according to his comments in this thread) With SO much red tape already, with lawyers on every corner and with a large percentage of people feeling its 'OK' to sue, even if it was your fault in the first place, You get to a point in society that people will be afraid to operate a business, suing and counter suing for no reason other than lack of common sense.

I have no doubt the situation the OP has put up, the children are aware of their surroundings. And good for him, he actually noticed the children, imagine the story if he hadn't of noticed the children, tripped over one, the manifold flies out of his hands and hits another customer? Whose at fault?

This is the scary (and frankly BS) situation Australia, and the western world is heading into.

Firstly, OH&S would see children on premises. There goes the family business, then they would see a man, carrying a heavy object. You are now fined for exceeding the lifting weight according to whatever BS form they have on them, So he has a fine now. The customer that got hit....sue's both the buisness and the OP......

Good bye house, car, business.

MO · 01-07-2009, 04:32 PM

You raised a good question...why is the OP sending a 20kilo manifold in the post,would'nt it be better with a freight company.

Teflon Turbo · 01-07-2009, 04:32 PM

big deal, most accidents happen at home.

why don't we ask why the OH & S isn't extended into the home environment like they are trying to do with food hygine.

SB076 · 01-07-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FG_OG

big deal, most accidents happen at home.

why don't we ask why the OH & S isn't extended into the home environment like they are trying to do with food hygine.

That is very very scary (having OH&S) come into peoples homes (but I wouldnt be surprised) Probably pay a few hundred dollars for the priviledge of being locked out of your house - because you split some water on the floor and failed to rope off the area.

I was talking or reading cant remember now about a school that asked kids to bring tadpoles in so they could watch them turn into frogs - they were told they couldnt as they needed a permit.......

In my opinion we dont need more red tape, or more laws we need to teach people to be responsible for their own actions

cob115 · 01-07-2009, 04:56 PM

very heated topic,i have my kids in my office and have done for all 3off them over 14years,its tops,i get to see and interact with them during the day,they understand work ethic,they understand hazards in the factory when they come out supervised with me,i know if they wernt here i wouldnt see them till 7pm then only for awhil cos im stuffed,i think the news agent guy is doing a great thing,hes risks his own money to build a better future for his family yet some people moan about it. iv also tought my kids to drive a fork lift ,truck and other machinery ,genraly i start to teach them as soon as they show an intrest round 4/5years ,,now bfor the ohs nazis crack a wobbly i do it alone ,just like me and my father done when i was a lad ,and just like my grand father done with my father 70 odd years ago

:

Iggypoppin' · 01-07-2009, 05:33 PM

Old fashioned and to the point cob. Well done.

Pinch · 01-07-2009, 07:54 PM

Its all fun and games until someone loses an eye basically.

Some fair points on both sides. But having professionally dealt with the ramifications of (mainly) workplace injuries for the best part of a decade some time ago, and now looking after my wife till death do us part because some 3 week licenced P-plater had no idea how to drive, or just couldn't be bothered thinking about their actions, lives can be changed forever in an instant. For the most trivial things.

Sure you can't wrap everything up in cotton wool, and sometimes you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. But that is not to discount just sitting and thinking for one minute "what could go wrong here", a lot of suffering COULD be avoided. The way things have been done in the past is not always the best way. Just how easy and quick would it have been to find out all your names and addresses, write or type this post, and then mail it to you... or smoke signal it? We evolve we do things better, and generally we try and learn from mistakes and work out ways to do things that are less risky.

That's not to say that because a few flights have gone down lately that I will stop flying - thereby reducing the likelihood of me being in a plane crash. Statistially not that high an incidence. But I will always have upper spec tyres on my cars rather than retreads, even if it costs more, becuase there is less chance of something going wrong.

Are their any risk analysts here? Trip hazards are probably one of the largest groups of genuine compo claims. Probably not going to kill you, but can lead to months or years of recovery if you break something the wrong way.

Sure I could save a lot of time and hassle too just rolling through stop signs in the wee small hours of the morning on the basis that it was unlikely anyone else would be there, or someone, or many people before me had done it. Doesn't mean that it would be the end of the world for me to actually think about my actions, and take some different - not necessarily expensive - action to make the likelihood of something a lot less.

A little bit of experience from the Pinch. Realistically for every compo scam, there are probably about 50 or so genuine cases where people's lifes are forever affected by things that could probably have been easily avoided.

Hindsight is a wonderful and easy thing. Foresight is not so easy or common.

Too full on. Probably. Ok then. There are always three ways to do something. The right way. The wrong way. And the Homer Simpson way. The Homer Simpson way is just the wrong way...only faster.

XW_GS · 01-07-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MO

You raised a good question...why is the OP sending a 20kilo manifold in the post,would'nt it be better with a freight company.

because i could.......

and thanks flappist

i must remind myself not to add gravity in a heavy parcel...incase the guy behind the counter drops it on his kid, or the guy in the van drops it on his foot, or the worker in the sorting area picks it up incorrectly and hurts his back.... most of you are right.....

why should i care ???

but most of you must have read my opening message incorrectly or it must have read wrongly...

i really dont give half a rats **** how he runs his business..

i was just concerned about the young ones

i will feel sorry for the young one if he (god forbid) gets seriously hurt but hey its his fathers way.

Im not dobbing anyone in to any authority,not my thing, i was just stating that it must be lawfully wrong to have a kid in a potentially dangerous environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJXR6

I opened this thread and was greeted by instant negativity. Why can't opinions be expressed without insults/criticism aimed at others? Just like many other threads on here, this one will get closed because no-one could play nice. Not what anyone wants to see, but it begs the question, why can't we all just get along?

Thanks NJXR6
There is obvioulsy a bit of emotion over this subject as there are strong feelings on both sides of this subject...but, calling a fellow member an "IDIOT" is just not on...

Teflon Turbo · 01-07-2009, 08:20 PM

i thought 15kg was the aus post weight limit?

RG · 01-07-2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FG_OG

i thought 15kg was the aus post weight limit?

25kg is their max weight via the cubing rule. It equals about 22kg dead weight.

GT69 · 01-07-2009, 08:46 PM

Very good post Pinch.

**aussiblue** · 01-07-2009, 09:37 PM

Could be worse; a shop in an arcade in Perth often has their baby/ toddler sitting unattended on counter ready to fall headfirst on the concrete below.

I have often wondered if Community Services should be notified but then stop and think that like the moderator above I recall that as a child on a dairy farm, I was driving tractors, operating mowers and bailers and other farm machinery, milking cows, herding bulls, feeding pigs, trapping rabbits. running round with tilley lamps etc as a pre-schooler too and survived OK.

The closest near miss I had as a child was jumping off a tractor I was using to drive a stationery water pump and getting my shorts caught in the belt - luckily I just got my shorts ripped off. But a girl on the farm got scalped when her hair got caught in a cream separator belt, another neighbouring child fell in a log fire and was badly burnt and a kid at the local timber mill got his stomach ripped out in a machine belt and ended up being institutionalised for life.

Stiil while I have msigivings, I don't interfere. Nonetheless, everytime I walk past I am, like I suspect many other are, prepared to catch this baby if it should fall from the counter.