LS3 for final Commodore

[arronm]

Dan defines "brutal"as he sees it. And he has driven more high powered cars than most

[egoxr6]

"Either way, it's now almost certain Australians won't have access to a large, V8 rear-drive Holden sedan after the Australian-made Commodore is killed off".

Wow. Never saw that coming

[arronm]

To understand a bit of Australian car history watch the 3 parts of "wide open road". Holden had it sown up in the 50s until ford started making cars

What really mixed it up was the tariff being removed from imported cars in the 80s. That saw the the roads full of small imported cars

[rancidpunx]

F6 does feel faster than a Miami because of the way the power comes on. Generally they are not point to point but do feel it and its because the way it delivers its torque. Its also why an F6 or Turbo will run the same times as a V8 with considerably less power. The Miami is so linear where as the a turbo drops everything in your lap by surprise. Give Having driven both high powered cars a GT with 470rwkw is actually pretty sedate in comparison to an F6 with on 400rwkw. Hugely impressed with how the GT hang on and accelerated away where as the F6 needed much more respect for the throttle. As soon as boost came on it just wants to step out on you. Stock for stock though giving both the beans you can look down at the speedo of the F6 and being fanging along at 80-100kph when you pull out do the same in the GT and you will be up around 130kph for the same thrill. I choose the GT for the theatre, the noise and the history. I very nearly got an F6 though because coming from the Turbo they are massive amounts of fun and so understated.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Then there is the "event".. the transition as the car comes onto full boost, the rear wheel torque changes by a much larger amount and this is what unhooks a tyre, tyres will generally take more grunt the slower andmore progressively you feed the power in, ramping it on hard is fun but unless you are at the track/have killer traction its going to make the car unhook a lot easier.

Daniel

AGREED.

So exactly what I had said about turbo lag...

[5.8]

Originally Posted by FGX310

http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2014...-last-ss-46791


Commodore to bow out with a bang, but 6.2-litre SS will be Holden's last rear-drive V8 sports sedan

Holden is saving its best for last. motoring.com.au can now reveal the local GM arm will bless the final, MY16 Commodore with GM's bigger, more powerful 6.2-litre LS3 V8.

Who cares?

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by 5.8

Who cares?

Clearly you do.
You came into a thread that is clearly labeled LS3 for final Commodore to read the posts.

If you don't care then why did you click on this thread? To troll?

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by kypez

AGREED.

So exactly what I had said about turbo lag...

No its not actually lag, lag is how slow the turbo is to come on.

Its spool, and how thats managed... some may think its the same thing but its not, I can (and have had) a very laggy car that spools progressivly using a boost controller (Eboost2) and even though it was "laggy" (peak boost at 4500) it was progressive and linear either side of that peak torque rpm so that it ramped on gently and flattened out afterwards.

Something that not even a stock F6 is and certainly not one thats been tuned to maximise the output its capable of.

I can see why people have blurred the translation onto the screen through a keyboard (not a criticism just an observation).

The topic is LS3 and the answer is:

It wont be enough!

Daniel

[CAT600]

Probably to help clarify for those that still dont agree with lag and spool being different.

Lag is the delay/time for the turbo to spool.

Lag cannot be changed (without puting nitrous in the intake or raw fuel in the exhaust manifold) but spool can... because spool can be delayed and controlled with the wastegate.

Anyway just thought I should clear that up.

Daniel

[5.8]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Clearly you do.
You came into a thread that is clearly labeled LS3 for final Commodore to read the posts.

If you don't care then why did you click on this thread? To troll?

No, not trolling just making my point that I don't really car what Holden is doing with their cars. Its a Ford forum and why people bother starting Holden threads on it is beyond me. If you want to talk Holden, go to a Holden Forum!! As shown by most of the posts since the responses have swung to Fords anyway, which is why most of us come on here, to talk Ford.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by 5.8

No, not trolling just making my point that I don't really car what Holden is doing with their cars. Its a Ford forum and why people bother starting Holden threads on it is beyond me. If you want to talk Holden, go to a Holden Forum!! As shown by most of the posts since the responses have swung to Fords anyway, which is why most of us come on here, to talk Ford.

Cause

The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk
is why

[kypez]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Probably to help clarify for those that still dont agree with lag and spool being different.

Lag is the delay/time for the turbo to spool.

Lag cannot be changed (without puting nitrous in the intake or raw fuel in the exhaust manifold) but spool can... because spool can be delayed and controlled with the wastegate.

Anyway just thought I should clear that up.

Daniel

Originally Posted by CAT600

No its not actually lag, lag is how slow the turbo is to come on.

Its spool, and how thats managed... some may think its the same thing but its not, I can (and have had) a very laggy car that spools progressivly using a boost controller (Eboost2) and even though it was "laggy" (peak boost at 4500) it was progressive and linear either side of that peak torque rpm so that it ramped on gently and flattened out afterwards.

Something that not even a stock F6 is and certainly not one thats been tuned to maximise the output its capable of.

I can see why people have blurred the translation onto the screen through a keyboard (not a criticism just an observation).

The topic is LS3 and the answer is:

It wont be enough!

Daniel

Sure. But when your audience says that a car cant have a torque band but can only have a peak torque, you keep the conversation at that level using terms such as Turbo lag...

And Agreed, it really wont be enough! Holden (fans), Tell em they're dreaming!

[CAT600]

I think both the 315/335 and 270/310 engines are fantastic, how good is it to have two killer engines that cater to such a wide audience?

Id only be ****ed off if I was a Holden man!

Daniel

[SensationFG8]

You've nailed the exact sentiments of those of us who were defending the Miami

[arronm]

Originally Posted by kypez

Sure. But when your audience says that a car cant have a torque band but can only have a peak torque, you keep the conversation at that level using terms such as Turbo lag...

And Agreed, it really wont be enough! Holden (fans), Tell em they're dreaming!

If you are referring to me as the "audience" you don't need to dumb it down for me.
Actually being both an engineer and mechanic, it appears to me to be just the opposite.

A few pages back we were talking about peak torque at a certain RPM. I never said you cant have a torque band.

My comments were that peak torque on a stock Miami would be above 4000rpm and an F6 below 3000rpm.

I didnt bother to try and explain anything else when you posted about turbo lag, which you clearly dont understand, because I knew you would just come back with same ill-informed comments.

Iam glad Dan tried to explain things. And on a side note Dan (Cat600) and I are acquaintances so dont just take my word for it.

And here is a definition of peak. And again I with say there is only one peak. (max torque)

the highest or most important point or level:
the maximum point, degree, or volume of anything:

[5.8]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Cause

The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk
is why

Ford Forums

[LoudPipes]

For sure it’s a Ford Forum and there are many model specific sections for the faithful to wee in each other’s pocket.

The Pub is for a broad range of subjects and heaven help their evilness, also for those members who also own or take an interested in cars that fall outside of the Ford brand.

There are plenty of members here who can offer intelligent input to defend the brand if someone gets out of line.

But if it’s a simple matter of you don’t like the threads, it easy not to participate but childish to make comments like ”who cares?”

That sounds like my 11 year old Granddaughter when she can’t have her own way.

[CAT600]

Miami makes its peak torque around 4400-5200... even tuned that doesnt change nor does adding boost

F6 peak torque 2800-3200, tuning it just makes the swell go higher.

The F6 does have a powerband/torque spread, its just that it resembles a hump more than a plateau. If I had an F6 I would try and add power then wash off some of the midrange swell to keep it hooked up.

Daniel

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Bent8

Ok I'll bite, let's compare my motor to the LS1 fitted to the VZ Commodore SS....

BOSS 260 5.4L (2003 - 2007)
260kW @5200rpm
500Nm @4000rpm

LS1 5.7L (2004 - 2006)
250kW @5600rpm
470Nm @4000rpm

If you wanna talk efficiency, the BOSS 260 makes more power at lower revs and more torque from less cubes !

And just for fun, the outputs for the hand-built M113 AMG V8 used in the C55, SLK55 until 2007 (this motor was SOHC with 3 valves per cylinder)

AMG 5.4L (5439cc)
270kW @5750rpm
510Nm @4000rpm

Again, the BOSS 260 makes nearly the same power at much lower revs.

Reason for this is because the Ford block has a very long stroke which means huge power potential when fitted with the appropriate mods.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but my boat anchor BOSS 260 makes between 248 - 255rwkw (depending on dyno) with 218,000km on the dial !!

She starts first time everytime, doesn't suffer from any kind of heat soak or piston slap like the LS1 did and has a nice throaty V8 note to boot.

Anyways, thanks for your kind words and back on topic.....

I remember quite a few dyno comparisons where the ls1 heat soaked heaps and got worse every run.....yet the boss made the same power over and over.
I think too many people are confusing the motor with the ability of said cars and their engines and chasis.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by Bent8

You may be right about low speed VE and no doubt it's always better having more cubes (with NA applications) but the 5.0 is a masterpiece of engineering achieving 88hp/litre in the Mustang versus 69hp/litre in the Camaro SS.

And you would think the LS3's larger capacity would give it a huge torque advantage but it doesn't... the Camaro SS makes 4% more torque (at higher revs) from an engine that's 20% larger than the 5.0 in the new Mustang... just doesn't add up if you ask me but I figure it's because of the relatively short stroke of the LS3.

Based on horsepower per litre, if the LS3 was a DOHC motor with 7000rpm redline and similar tech to the Coyote 5.0, it would be making right around 540hp and well over 600Nm from the factory... easily taking on the new XR8's.

To me both the GM small block and the Coyote engines are very good and although it's true that the Small Blocks are not too efficient when you look at their internal capacity, they can be efficient when it comes to weight, external size, power output and economy.
So the question is, what's really important?
Would anyone look at electric motors and judge their worth by comparing the sizes of their internal spinning rotors for a given power and torque output?

Wouldn't they instead compare overall external size, weight and also energy consumption for a given power output. So with that in mind, why not compare external size, weight, power output and fuel economy when comparing petrol engines.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by 5.8

No, not trolling just making my point that I don't really car what Holden is doing with their cars. Its a Ford forum and why people bother starting Holden threads on it is beyond me. If you want to talk Holden, go to a Holden Forum!! As shown by most of the posts since the responses have swung to Fords anyway, which is why most of us come on here, to talk Ford.

So threads about Renault hot hatches and Skylines are ok, (dunno why).
But anything GM is automatically evil, even though they are American like Ford, and have a similar car culture.

Odd.

[egoxr6]

LS3 is a good way to send the SS off to pasture as is the blown Miami in the XR8.

As for the rest of the discussion, I'll just put up with my uninspiring Barra punching out 500hp and 850Nm

[blackf6]

We have it good at the moment with the great cars we can buy. Would hate to have a to drive around in jap crap for the rest of my life. Sadly that is where we are heading. Keep the Aussie cars going guys.

[SM1DY]

So when can I order my V8, RWD, manual, ute, without the semi-pneumonic V8?

[arronm]

Well the VF2 did get the LS3. It looks like the VF2 GTS may have a -R version. Wonder what engine it will get.

[Sioso]

Good power and torque from Walkinshaw but that colour scheme

http://www.carsales.com.au/editorial...-review-100791

[FG50T]

Originally Posted by Sioso

Good power and torque from Walkinshaw but that colour scheme

http://www.carsales.com.au/editorial...-review-100791

I know someone running this pack. Made 380rwkw with 300kms on it and was ****ed with the money spent Just got a head and cam done on it (another 5k) and is now at 443rwkw with a mild tune because it's still only got 400kms down. Why you wouldn't just start off with an xr8 or lsa hsv is beyond me.

[Express]

Originally Posted by Sioso

Good power and torque from Walkinshaw but that colour scheme

http://www.carsales.com.au/editorial...-review-100791

Why on earth would you dress your promotional car up to look like excrement when to get sales you need it to look hot and sexy?






And what is it with performance Commodores these days that the ride height has to give you a nose bleed?




Tuners like Tekno are streets ahead in the way they present a car, this might be a HSV and not an SSV but at least they have tried to make it look good enough to own.






Tekno - 600kw @ $18495 fitted.




http://www.teknoperformance.com.au/powerpacks/



.

[PHawk]

The Jungle Green and Black is stunning!

[Wretched]

Wheels on the red Tekno car are gorgeous.