TAFE or UNI

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by HP Dude

however, as someone who is studying law, and who has friends studying medicine, I can tell you there are very, very few courses (TAFE or uni) as academically rigourous as law and med (save for the traditional sciences such as Chem, physics, and 'proper' engineering: they're bloody tough also).

At the end of the day, you have to compare apples with apples and not all uni degrees and institutions are operating at the same level.

I guess I see part of what you're saying. But my wife has done a Bachelor of Psychology and is now doing here Bachelor of Law. Her best friend is currently studying to be a Doctor (not sure how her strucutre goes as I think she had to do a different Undergraduate first- but she's 4 years in) and they both don't find it that dificult either. Really, they're not doing a great deal of work at all, and still succeed easily at their degrees.

See, my wife finds Law as easy as - but could never be a teacher. I found studying to be a Teacher and my Bachelor of IT as easy as, but was horrible at woodwork in highschool and could never be a tradesman.

The issue is -> studying Law or Medicine IS NOT harder than working a trade or similar - if that is what you are gifted at. Law at uni is not dificult if it's what you enjoy, grab some Law students and throw them into a trade course and see how well they do then compared to the guys interested in Trade :

[HP Dude]

Originally Posted by parawolf

My degree was Electrical Engineering, but it was by the Faculty of Applied Science. Go figure. So because it isn't a B.Eng, does that mean i'm not allowed to call myself an engineer?

Should my employment title be "Senior Systems Scientist" instead?

Engineering qualifications in this country (and probably world wide) need to be far more formalised, qualified and substaintied for an engineering graduate to get a reasonable chance at life.

Those at high school that do "two maths, physics and chem" as year 12 subjects fall (most of the time) into engineering, only because it is what they understand, they don't pick science (applied or pure).

Personally the freedom to go to uni in the country has devalued the marketability of a university degree. I don't mean charge for a degree, but I mean raise the bar, I don't want someone that got into uni on an ENTER of 55 "engineering" (stress loading, wind sway, natural harmonics, etc) a public road bridge or a multi-story building in a hurry.

However universities are most to blame with all this. They started taking in bulk money and started to be run as a business rather than a public education facility. Personally I think the image of TAFE should be brushed up and made more appealing and university should scale up the level of requirements - but also the level of outputs.

Arts students should go to TAFE... :Up_to_som

I agree with what you've written.

[parawolf]

The biggest thing I hate, is that people should go be going to University to be a computer programmer. This should be a 3 year TAFE course, not a 4 - 5year computer science degree.

You want to do Systems Administration? 2 year TAFE course, not a 4 year Bachelor of Information Systems run by a Business Department or similar.

You want to be an accountant? 2 years TAFE course and then work experience.

But thats just my view of the world.

[Deadman]

I think we can all agree at one of the biggest problems is that Universities are now just businesses. They want to sell you a degree, rather than offer education.

But also, I think it's tough for most students to go straight out of high school into Uni. I did because I was told by all (teachers etc) that if I wanted to be sucessful, I had to go to Uni. So first I went to be a teacher, finished, and didn't want to be a teach. Ok, I'll do IT. Finished, didn't really like IT.

I've got a great job now and I couldn't be happier, but my Uni degrees didn't have anything to do with it. It's nice I have the pieces of paper, but I really didn't need them.

My wife was the same, did Psychology, but really knew about half way through that she wanted to do Law. But of course - had to finish the Psychology degree so the first 2 years weren't wasted, now she's finally doing Law (and is very happy - and she'd better be, these Uni degree's aren't cheap ;))

I just believe it's hard on school kids to have to decide what they want to do for their career at only 17/18 when they haven't had a great deal of experience. The preasure on school leaving kids is to much if you ask me.

[HP Dude]

Originally Posted by Deadman

I think we can all agree at one of the biggest problems is that Universities are now just businesses. They want to sell you a degree, rather than offer education.

But also, I think it's tough for most students to go straight out of high school into Uni. I did because I was told by all (teachers etc) that if I wanted to be sucessful, I had to go to Uni. So first I went to be a teacher, finished, and didn't want to be a teach. Ok, I'll do IT. Finished, didn't really like IT.

I've got a great job now and I couldn't be happier, but my Uni degrees didn't have anything to do with it. It's nice I have the pieces of paper, but I really didn't need them.

My wife was the same, did Psychology, but really knew about half way through that she wanted to do Law. But of course - had to finish the Psychology degree so the first 2 years weren't wasted, now she's finally doing Law (and is very happy - and she'd better be, these Uni degree's aren't cheap ;))

I just believe it's hard on 17/18 year old kids who have to decide what they want to do for the rest of their life, and get thrown into University.

I fully agree. In your wife, and her friend's case, having previous tertiary studies could easily explain why they've settled into post their respective postgrad law and med courses so well.

In my case, I did law because I got in. No other real reason. Probably not the best of motives! I did the combined Arts/Law double degree, finished Arts before Law, and in fact I ended up defering Law for the full three years you're allowed to, in order to work full time, try other possible career paths etc. Nothing worked out. So I went back this year full time, and I'll finish next year. Perhaps the Yanks have one thing right: you can't do med or law out of high school, you must do generalist studies prior to entry to the more vocational and academically rigourous disciplines.

[big_pete]

well ive just finished my 3rd and final year at UNI.
however i have to go back for 1 subject next year.

im now looking at going to TAFE, for a year, so i can actually LEARN SOMETHING!!
there was very little in the way of actual teaching going on in my coarse, so i feel that my skills arent quite what they need to be,

so while i still have to go back to uni for 1 subject i decided i would go to tafe, and have another year to learn (and bludge ;) ) plus its FREE

[Dave_au]

I think it really depends on what course you do at uni - only a few actually have a good grounding for either further education, professional assosciations etc.

Doing arts in ancient inca studies won't really win you a job in big business.

[megsy]

im currently doing my bachelor of agricultural science and am learning heaps, some of which is related to my interests, some not. but i do enjoy it and thats all that matters + the cert at the end

[parawolf]

Why do you need a bachelors degree in agricutural science? what couldn't a 2 - 3 year TAFE course teach you vs a 3 - 4 year uni degree?

My question is assuming all things equal, and is not meant to degrade you in ANYWAY what so ever so please don't take it that way. Assuming you could get a TAFE course which taught you the same information, and was a year quicker to graduate and cost you 1 year less in tutition fees.

Which would you pick?

[F6Tornado]

I've 90% completed my first uni degree, IT in Multimedia and Programming (now out of the 10 year limit so I can't finish it). I'm now doing a Bachelor of Health Science. I've also done TAFE courses, for the fun of it.

It really depends on where you want to end up, what you want to do over the next 5-10 years. I didn't bother stressing about finishing my IT degree because after working in the industry for 8 years, I knew it wasn't something I wanted to continue to do.

My Health Science degree (was doing pure science in chemistry & biomedical - but my major in health science degree is more where i want to end up) is not related to what I do for a living, it is something I want to be doing in 10 years time. I currently work in project management, I could end up doing this for the next 10 years and enjoy it (and I will be doing further study in this field), but in the end it isn't where I want to be.

In this day-and-age, people don't end up being in the same career for their whole lives.

S

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by F6Tornado

In this day-and-age, people don't end up being in the same career for their whole lives.

Exactly... so everytime you want to change careers why should you do a 3 - 5 year uni course, instead of a 2 year TAFE program?

[HLC]

after i finsih my degree at uni, im gonna go and get a diploma in Roo Shooting cause its funny, and that way ill be able to probably get my hunting licence without being in a hunting club, because my club isnt a hunting club.

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by HLC

after i finsih my degree at uni, im gonna go and get a diploma in Roo Shooting cause its funny, and that way ill be able to probably get my hunting licence without being in a hunting club, because my club isnt a hunting club.

Mate, there is a LOT of money in Roo Shooting :

A degree or certificate is only as good as the person that has it and knows how to use it. I have done a Business Studies Dip. at TAFE and have a degree in Commerce/Marketing. No real regrets but I don't think I'm much better off.

[Walkinshaw]

As of next Thursday I'll have finnished bachelor Engineering (Civil), Honours class1.

As many have said above, uni is a joke. Ive finnished with a GPA of 5.89 and probably atteneded 40% of the classes.

[Duffman]

I just finshed my 3 year business degree yesterday, needless to say im a bit hungover from the party last night

[Tornado]

Originally Posted by Walkinshaw

As of next Thursday I'll have finnished bachelor Engineering (Civil), Honours class1.

As many have said above, uni is a joke. Ive finnished with a GPA of 5.89 and probably atteneded 40% of the classes.

Well either all you guys are bloody nerds or UNI has become allot easy from what it was when I went. I completed a Bachelor of Applied Science, Computer Science Major and Instrumentation sub Major from RMIT and I found it bloody hard, and no I am not of below average intelligence.

[Mark^^]

Uni = very easy to get an alphabet of letters after ya name:

Me = BSc (Hons), B App Sci (Nursing), B App Sci (Health Ed), B.Thol, BSW (Hons), Grad.Cert.H.S.M and doing a MPS which is Masters in Policy Studies.

Mark

[Mechan1k]

I did 2 years at TAFE (Dip Info Tech) ... completed with High Distinction ... also inc. was 6 months of Work Experience.

I got myself straight into a permanent position doing network operations/support at age 19 ... have gone on since then to bigger and better things ... I make fairly decent money for what I do ... I can't complain.

I still know several people from high school that got 95+ TER score and went on to Uni (to be great people - as they mentioned) ... they are still at uni or have dropped out ... still no job yet either ... and it's 11 years on since high school finished.

Uni is damn expensive ... hardly any work experience at all (if any) ... and most people won't use the knowledge they have learnt ( if they remember what they learnt).

Tell you what pays good ... for little work ... if you are will to endure a bit of traffic around Sydney. And are good at knowing your way around as well ... Courier work ... if i did it full time I'd be bringing in a minimum of $1,500 a week (being a sub-contractor you only pay 11% due to GST ... and you can claim a lot back as well).

I only do it as a part time job though ... cos it keeps me amused on my days off from my fulltime job (shiftworker).

Now for courier work I didn't need to supply even a school certificate ... just a driver's licence really.

Put it this way ... just for driving to Canberra and Wagga and back to Sydney I made $750 for the day (yes for the one day) ... and it was a nice drive in the country listening to good music with the window down ... such easy money.

[EBII Fairmont]

Currently at TAFE doing international business. I have applied for uni and i found out this thursday if anyone will accept me or not. Otherwise i'll be waiting until january with everyone else. I'm scared I won't get a place. Just wait and see what is thrown at me.

[HP Dude]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Well either all you guys are bloody nerds or UNI has become allot easy from what it was when I went. I completed a Bachelor of Applied Science, Computer Science Major and Instrumentation sub Major from RMIT and I found it bloody hard, and no I am not of below average intelligence.

I still reckon it depends on which university you attend, NOT just on the course:

Originally Posted by HP Dude

Also, there are unis, and then there are unis. The scores for prestigious degrees at sandstone universities are very high because they're in demand, and they are academically tough to complete, however, it's easier to get into a law degree at Melbourne Uni, than to stay (in my experience). The drop out/non-completion rate is pretty high.

At the end of the day, you have to compare apples with apples and not all uni degrees and institutions are operating at the same level.

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by HP Dude

I still reckon it depends on which university you attend, NOT just on the course:

I'd have to go with Tornado on this one. Every Uni in Aus is a business now. None of them are really overly hard.

The perception that "there are Universities, and there are Universities" is just created by smart Uni marketing convicing students of how good their University is suppose to be... You even see it with Secondary schooling these days - "we're the best because of this etc etc..." - it's sickening.

Originally Posted by HP Dude

The scores for prestigious degrees at sandstone universities are very high because they're in demand, and they are academically tough to complete, however, it's easier to get into a law degree at Melbourne Uni

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005_TopAsia.htm

Prooves my above point. Apparently Melbourne Uni is the second best Uni in Australia. (but people might not think that...) It's good marketing by the other (all) Universities...

I'm not pretending to be an expert on all Universities rankings and quality (esspecially ones outside of QLD) -> but the perception everyone has of universites is often driven by their sucessful marketing to make you think that they are superior to other universities (which is often not the case).

Ok... time to go back to the bourbon .... : :baby bott

[HP Dude]

Originally Posted by Deadman

I'd have to go with Tornado on this one. Every Uni in Aus is a business now. None of them are really overly hard.

The perception that "there are Universities, and there are Universities" is just created by smart Uni marketing convicing students of how good their University is suppose to be... You even see it with Secondary schooling these days - "we're the best because of this etc etc..." - it's sickening.



http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005_TopAsia.htm

Prooves my above point. Apparently Melbourne Uni is the second best Uni in Australia. (but people might not think that...) It's good marketing by the other (all) Universities...

I'm not pretending to be an expert on Universities (esspecially ones outside of QLD) -> but the perception everyone has of universites is often driven by their sucessful marketing to make you think that they are superior to other universities (which is often not the case)

Those ratings are based on research output, but nonetheless, ANU (which came first in Aust) is also considered a sandstone uni. I do take your point, however the fact remains that sandstone unis require the highest scores (this correlates with demand AFAIK). Whether this is due to snobbery/merit/marketing/brainwashing may be a matter of subjective opinion, but the fact remains that where you have a course consisting of students who obtain, for eg, ENTER scores above 98, and where you have a course where the students have obtained significantly lower scores, a higher standard will be demanded of the first group. It stands to reason. I thought I posted a little anecdote here relating to what a law student from Monash Uni told me about certain law students transferring from another university, but it's not on this thread. Once I confirm whether it was removed, or whether I screwed up and didn't actually post it, I may post what I was told. Basically, the standards required by some unis differ markedly to those at other unis. I believe this based on the anecdotal evidence I have been told. I haven't studied at any other uni, so I can't say I have first hand experience, but as someone who did rather well in yr 12 without the benefit of tutors (etc), I can tell you, studying law at Melbourne uni is NO walk in the park. I remember my crim law lecturer telling us that it was against their policy to give scores above 80% (i.e. an H1) to more than three of four students out of four hundred! Yet everyone I speak to from other unis is getting 100% for everything, yet they never need to study. I study my **** off yet barely do okay... other Melbourne uni students tell me the same thing about them. All the dummies must have got high ENTER scores and ended up at Melbourne uni!

[HP Dude]

Okay, Sourbastard confirmed for me that no post was edited/deleted, so I must not have posted, therefore I'll share the anecdote.

At a law student conference I attended this year, a law student from Monash told me that he personally knew of students transferring from a law courses from a certain Victorian university (NOT Melbourne Uni or La Trobe Uni, FWIW) with "high distinctions this", and "high distinctions that", yet once they find themselves at Monash Law, they fail or barely pass. This tells me that not all unis, and not all courses, are equal. I couldn't believe my ears, and this person is a pretty decent, straight-up guy, not given to hyperbole.

BTW, the uni to which I am referring does not appear on the list you linked!

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by HP Dude

I haven't studied at any other uni, so I can't say I have first hand experience, but as someone who did rather well in yr 12 without the benefit of tutors (etc), I can tell you, studying law at Melbourne uni is NO walk in the park. I remember my crim law lecturer telling us that it was against their policy to give scores above 80% (i.e. an H1) to more than three of four students out of four hundred! Yet everyone I speak to from other unis is getting 100% for everything, yet they never need to study. I study my **** off yet barely do okay... other Melbourne uni students tell me the same thing about them.

I guess we can work out 2 things from that:

1. It's interesting then that to get the same "degree" can require such a different level of 'knowledge / study in the course' (don't know exactly what to put there - but you know what I mean ;) )

2. Based on point 1. I guess you can see why some people feel Uni might be harder than others (but this is still debatable, however unless someone here has done the same degree at every Aussie UNI I guess we'll never know :p)

3. Also based on point 1 - maybe you chose the wrong UNI (go the easy one!! :p)

sorry for any typos - 12pm and very intoxicated :

[zetec]

Bachelor of Science in Biotechnology and a Diploma in Innovation Management at Uni, plus my Responsible Service of Alcohol was Tafe accredited I am considering doing an automotive Mechanics course at TAFE before I get into old cars and start owning them.

[HP Dude]

Originally Posted by Deadman

I guess we can work out 2 things from that:

1. It's interesting then that to get the same "degree" can require such a different level of 'knowledge / study in the course' (don't know exactly what to put there - but you know what I mean ;) )

Speaking only about law, everyone (regardless of uni) must complete the same core subjects in order to to be eligible to practice. Subjects virtually the same; marking different!

Originally Posted by Deadman

2. Based on point 1. I guess you can see why some people feel Uni might be harder than others (but this is still debatable, however unless someone here has done the same degree at every Aussie UNI I guess we'll never know :p)

3. Also based on point 1 - maybe you chose the wrong UNI (go the easy one!! :p)

I think suspect your correct!

Originally Posted by Deadman

sorry for any typos - 12pm and very intoxicated :

Nah, you're okay... I wish I were ****ed; usually am out on a Saturday night but guess what? I'm studying for an exam on Monday morning!!! lol!

[XRchic]

Bachelor of Nursing
Bachelor of Psychology (Hons)
Bachelor of Laws
Graduate Diploma in Legal Practice
Soon to hopefully beginning Masters in Law

The main difference between uni and TAFE (ie, why a TAFE course is shorter than an equivalent Uni course), is the level of research involved. At TAFE you might do a 2000 word paper on a topic, but at Uni you will do a 10 000 word research thesis for the same topic. That would be because TAFE focusses more on the practical application of the knowledge, while Uni focusses more on just knowing MORE about the topic in theory, through research. This particularly applies to areas like sciences and law (and probably others).

There are some jobs where you just need that level of in depth knowledge from uni. I couldnt do my current job without having done law at uni. I have seen some attempt to and fail dismally, as they do not have the research skills, the legal interpretation skills (ie knowing how to pull the relevant material points out of a case, or how to correctly interpret legislation). There are just some things that I can do only because I spent 5 years practicing them at uni for exams and for assignments, and having it drummed into my head for 5 years.

MANY (not all) degrees these days also have an element of practical experience. My nursing degree required quite a lot of placement work in public hospitals, to pass. Its not the same as actually working in the field full time, but it is a balance between theory and practical experience. And let me assure you, that the work that nurses do, in large busy public hospitals, needs a level of knowledge that cannot be gained without the in depth medical theory you get taught at uni. Nursing is a tough field to work in, and you have to know a LOT more about chemistry, physics, anatomy, pharmacy etc etc than people realise - experience in cleaning bed pans in a nursing home as a nurses aid just will not cut it out there these days.

As for Psychology, well you will learn things during that degree also that are essential to working in the field. You cannot claim to be just good at dealing with people, have a lot of experience with people. To be a psychologist, you have to be able to understand the theories of how the brain works, the concept of personalities and intelligence - from research, and you have to be able to use statistics to be able to verify and add value to the work you are doing, and to also make the work more credible. Psychology is often about relativity, and without learning the statistics behind the methodology, you cant do much with it.

Sure, some degrees are easier than others. Some are less specific (ie Arts). I also agree that some unis are better than others. For example, I have heard that Adelaide Uni law students who transferred to Flinders Uni law, found it very difficult. Mainly because Adelaide was a very theory based course, while Flinders has a substantial degree of practical assessment and work, in actual law firms, in the courts and there are practical exercises that need to be passed in areas like negotiation, cross examination, interviewing etc... that Adelaide students couldnt get their heads around.

When I was there, Bond Uni was rated first for law, and Flinders second... many of the "Ivy League" unis were well down the list for law, and included in that rating were ratings from graduate students.

It very much depends what you do in your life, and what you want to do. If you want the practical knowledge, you want to learn how to DO it hands on, then you go to TAFE. If you want a very thorough background in the knowledge and research skills, then you go to Uni. I dont think it relates that much to money.

I also think that Uni students are not all prissy spoiled kids who do it easy these days. Things have changed. You need pretty bloody high marks in yr 12 to get into most courses these days, and getting a really good yr 12 mark in subjects like maths and physics can be a really hard experience. I have met sooooo many young kids at uni who do have fairly well off parents, but who work nearly full time hours as casual checkout operators or many other things... most of them really struggle to balance their working life with uni and study.

I, personally, did my law degree as a slightly bigger than full time load, working 40 hours a week and as a single parent with a daughter and a newborn baby. I had also worked in plenty of other areas before I did that degree. I dont think anyone can assume these days that uni students dont have any practical real world experience.

At the end of the day, one is not better than the other, they are just different, thats all. And it depends on the person and their goals. You just choose which one suits you.

Jac

[HP Dude]

Originally Posted by XRchic

When I was there, Bond Uni was rated first for law, and Flinders second... many of the "Ivy League" unis were well down the list for law, and included in that rating were ratings from graduate students.

Were these ranks based on student satisfaction?

This is what I found on the Melbourne Uni website:

http://undergraduate.law.unimelb.edu...ence/index.cfm


"A recently published survey by the Social Science Research Network ranks the Melbourne Law School as clearly first in Australia and number 29 in the world. The survey measures the amount of data downloaded from academics at each university as a proxy for research impact. The Social Science Research Network ranks Melbourne as the best law school outside North America, significantly ahead of Cambridge (34), University College London (40), the University of Sydney (98) and Oxford (105)."

[XRchic]

Originally Posted by HP Dude

Were these ranks based on student satisfaction?

This is what I found on the Melbourne Uni website:

http://undergraduate.law.unimelb.edu...ence/index.cfm


"A recently published survey by the Social Science Research Network ranks the Melbourne Law School as clearly first in Australia and number 29 in the world. The survey measures the amount of data downloaded from academics at each university as a proxy for research impact. The Social Science Research Network ranks Melbourne as the best law school outside North America, significantly ahead of Cambridge (34), University College London (40), the University of Sydney (98) and Oxford (105)."

Yeah they were mate, but I did say that this was back whe I was at Uni which was 1995. Im sure a lot has changed since then! As far as I remember, Bond rated highly because its a private uni.

Jac