National parks in the NT.... Say goodbye.

[Outbackjack]

I was curious how people would feel if all the national parks in the NT were to be handed over to a minority group that have a history of locking up "their" land to every one else in this country. This is not a hypothetical proposition. This is about to happen. The territory government is about to hand over all OUR national parks to aboriginal groups because they dont want to pay to look after them anymore. Does this make any body out there angry? These parks belong to ALL Australians, not a minority, that for the most part are the most dis-functional groups in this country. So people, if you are ever planning a trip out to some of the most awesome places in Australia, think twice. With in a few years these parks will be off limits to all but the priveledged few. I have been watching this situation develop over the last 6 or 8 months. I cant believe this is happening here.... I pinch myself but I dont wake up. As I said does anybody else care. :

[EDManual]

Seems pretty typical of councils all over the place, in a way its similar to your local kids park, and how they pull down the swings cos they are old and dont want to pay for new ones. They would rather we have nothing, than something that costs money....

[Outbackjack]

There are 41 parks to be handed over. Ranging from Port Aususta to ahnem land. Palm valley, the east McDonnells, the west macDonnels, kakadu, ahnem land and in all likely hood, the rivers will become their private domain, If this takes hold here, how long until the coastal state governments start to follow suit. This could lock up your favourite skiing lake or your favorite 4 wheeler destination. This will cause worse divisions between aboriginal people and non aboriginal people all through the country. It will no longer be confined to the out back!!

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

This will cause worse divisions between aboriginal people and non aboriginal people all through the country.

Mate only if other people in Australia adopt the attitude which you have adopted here.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Mate only if other people in Australia adopt the attitude which you have adopted here.

My attitude is "this country belongs to all of us. Not just a priviledged few based on skin colour"

This country is already locked up enough. Does anyone here think that they can hop in their car and drive/visit any where in this country that they like? Try it.

If these laws are passed it will get much worse!!

[rodderz]

So would this mean no visits for tourists?

[crusher]

That is so bloody retarded its not funny.

Now hopefully these blokes will have some smarts about em and keep em open and run tours and things in the parks. Gives them an income and helps keep the young fellas straight and switched on. They start learning and dont just become bums.

There are big tourist dollars to be had. I wonder if theyll realise and hopefully still let everyone in.

Hope you blokes up there are jumping up and down about this and havin a good chat to the government.

[Redrum]

Sounds like more political correctness, where will it end.......... :

[chief]

I live near some National Parks and I would be ИИИИed off if they were going to be handed back. They are there for everyone to enjoy. They are a NATIONAL parks because they are not everywhere. They should be there for all Australians to enjoy.

[Keepleft]

A bit on this here:

http://www.nt.gov.au/dcm/parks/parks/index.shtml

Note the word 'litigation' and think 'motor claims' among many.

[Panda]

I'm sure they'll let tourists in.....for a price!!!!!!!

Panda

[aimzes]

just hand 'em a coupla long necks and youll be free to do what you want.

[Outbackjack]

The best outcome would be "pay per visit" If Ayres rock is anything to go by it would cost $25 per head for a 2 day visit. On the surface of it, if the money made its way to the idiginous folk and provided jobs that would be a great thing. The examples set so far do not reflect this outcome. If you guys ever visit Ayres rock, and I suggest you do, dont expect to see any indiginous folk hard at work down there. The resorts have to employ back packers for 3 or 4 month stints. They cant get any aboriginal people to do the work, and they have tried VERY hard to do this. They want the visitors to meet as many indiginous folk as possible, and take away a positive attitude to them. But sadly the only indiginous face they usually see in lying in their own vomit in the red sand. The amount of money that Ayres rock has generated for the Aboriginal communities there is destroying them. They call it sit around money, and the bulk of it gets spent at the pub. This will be the most likely outcome for the rest of "OUR"parks. Living in the Alice we have become accustomed to to drunk, awful smelling, Aboriginals harrasing us for $5 or some smokes. We like to get away camping as much as we can. We fear that this crap will follow us now to our favourite camping locations. If any body thinks that I am not telling the truth about the state of Aboriginal people in the Alice, let me know and I will take a wander around town over the next couple of days and take some pictures and post them on a separate web site. This can be a bit dangerous, if they think that you are taking photo's of them specifically they tend to get quite p1ssed of. And they can be very violent people.

Luckily the whole of The Alice are mighty peeved about this.... Just like Johny and his IR changes Clare Martin never uttered a word about this at the last election.... Just proves that when pollies get land slide wins, they become dictators, not govern for the peolpe......

[Tony xa]

If we keep giving the indiginos people stuff they will never learn to fend for themselves .

I understand that they want their land back but all of the parks is a bit steep .
If anything we should lease the land of their tribes or groupes what ever they are called and put that money into areas that will help them in the long run not the short term .

We here in oz seem to work on the basis that if we give them fish they will eat now instead of teaching how to fish so they can eat forever .

I really am no expert on it and don't have all the details nor do I really care but from little I know and from what other countries do I think there would be a better way than this.

[Keepleft]

Outback - DO take some pics, and link here. HALF the NT road deaths involve alcohol affected aboriginal persons in built-up areas, yet they represent only 23% of the NT total population.

[Outbackjack]

KEEPLEFT, I wil take some pictures, but I will not post them on this forum. I do not want to impose such "politicaly sensitive" images on the good people that run the AFF. I have a photo bucket account that I wil post them to. I really dont think that many Australians realise what state these aboriginal folk are in.... Maybe a few un cencored pictures will open a few eyes. Then perhaps all the politically correct do gooders might think twice about handing more and more of this country over to a people that are in such poor state. I will include some of the houses that the tax payers of Australia have built for them..... A picture tells a thousand stories.

Wish me luck, as I said they are not happy about pictures being taken of these places or people.

[Zed7fiddy]

Outbackjack - id just like to say that the resort does NOT "employ backpackers" for 3 - 4 months (most staff members are there from other capital citys! and they staff themselves pay to move out there and back home again), and does infact inject a fair amount of money into a local college there, which employs mainly persons of aboriginal nationality to teach the younger children and educate them.

but you are correct, it is sit around money, but the locals do not get it untill november, when they are given a lump sum of roughly 15 - $20 000! (Each!)its great to see the local Community Mutijulu double in population!

[svo347]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

KEEPLEFT, I wil take some pictures, but I will not post them on this forum. I do not want to impose such "politicaly sensitive" images on the good people that run the AFF.

But you'll start a politically sensitive thread

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Wish me luck, as I said they are not happy about pictures being taken of these places or people.

do you know why....
To publish a photo of a deceased relative to them is an insult to their beliefs barring the dead person to cross over or wander in the afterlife.
Man i dont agree with alot of things but if you want someone to blame, blame the governments. anyways mate in regards to Australias indigenous people receiving land, native title has been around for Years...

:

[BA GT-HO]

I remember living in Darwin for a while and your right, the state of the natives back then was ridiculous. We visited Alice Springs as well as other more remote outback towns in NT and all you saw was Aboriginals passed out in the river bed with beer bottles/flaggons of goon all around them, harrasing people for smokes/money..

It's sad but it's the truth, by being 'politically correct' all we are doing is sweeping the issue under the rug. Why are we not allowed to talk about the facts and try and help the ones (probably a minority?) who drink and are simply pests in the community.

Even last night here in Adelaide a group of us was walking down Nth Tce and there was a group of Aboriginals yelling at people and throwing bottles onto the road. (town is meant to be a dry zone, yet the Police turn a blind eye to the Aboriginals to avoid being labelled 'racists')

They have massive problems the Aboriginals, but to me they don't seem to do much to help themselves..

[Outbackjack]

SVO, it is only a political thread because if you say anything that might be deemed derogatory about the indiginous folk you are immediatley branded a redneck racist. It is about time that all Australians realised what the state of our indiginous people really is. They are a mess. But this is really not what I started this thread for. I just wanted people to realise that they will almost certainly be excluded from some of this countries treasures. The history of land hand backs supports this therory. My family were planning a trip the Perth this winter via the old gun barrel high way..... Guess what, you have to get a PERMIT to travel on roads that Len Beadel cut through in the 1950's !! We rang, sent fax's, at least a dozen times. No answer! No reply. So much for our cross desert adventure. This is how our national parks will become. Maybe posting photos is moving too far away from the theme of this thread. But all you folk in cities probably are living in blissful denial of the problems our here.........

[svo347]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

But all you folk in cities probably are living in blissful denial of the problems our here.........

And I lived in the Pilbara for 28 years... Your point is...
:

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by svo347

And I lived in the Pilbara for 28 years... Your point is...
:

My point is....... people that live in our major cities have no idea of the state of the Aboriginal people.... But I think that I already said that.....

[kempster1]

I lived in the NT for 22 years and a good parts of that was spent living in remote Aboriginal communities.
Outbackjack is spot on with what he has said

A good aboriginal is getting very hard to find..

[HOON69]

well it was there land once upon a time
and now they are getting it back?


so whats everyone whinging about again

[BJ]

Originally Posted by HOON69

well it was there land once upon a time
and now they are getting it back?


so whats everyone whinging about again

So when they come knocking on your door for your land, you will have no objections then i take it.
I use to work with theses people and what Outback Jack is saying is 100% correct. They get everything given to them and have no gratitude for it. All i can see coming out of all this is one b.l.o.o.d.y big pad lock.

[4.9 EF Futura]

I agree with your philosophy... perhaps your initial post was written with a little more "heat"....

Having read through the material on the NTgov site, it would appear that the settlement they are seeking is reasonable. And more to the point that there'll still be ИИИИloads of the NT accessible to everyone... in fact there's mention of new parks coming on board??

Probably a few years too late to be debating the theories of native title.

It just seems a bit harsh to be judging the indigenous population and their land beliefs, based on the behaviour of aboriginals who reside in the towns (and I quote "for the most part are the most dis-functional groups in this country").

Unless you and the people of Alice are volunteering to fund the settlements under ALRA...

I'm sure that with the marginal percentages of Australia which have been subject to ALRA claims, you can still find somewhere to camp and somewhere to thrash your 4x4s.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Mate only if other people in Australia adopt the attitude which you have adopted here.

AMEN

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

I was curious how people would feel if all the national parks in the NT were to be handed over to a minority group that have a history of locking up "their" land to every one else in this country. This is not a hypothetical proposition. This is about to happen. The territory government is about to hand over all OUR national parks to aboriginal groups because they dont want to pay to look after them anymore. Does this make any body out there angry? These parks belong to ALL Australians, not a minority, that for the most part are the most dis-functional groups in this country. So people, if you are ever planning a trip out to some of the most awesome places in Australia, think twice. With in a few years these parks will be off limits to all but the priveledged few. I have been watching this situation develop over the last 6 or 8 months. I cant believe this is happening here.... I pinch myself but I dont wake up. As I said does anybody else care. :

WOW! Outbackjack, are you trying to alienate yourself from as many people as possible in the one thread?

While I support your right to hold and express any view you like, I disagree.
http://www.nt.gov.au/dcm/parks/parks/index.shtml
This link also disagrees and makes all you claim about entry fees and non-access to National parks absolute rubbish.

You disagree with the government, but take your anger out on Aboriginal people. You don't need to post pictures of Aboriginals. Even though I live in the "city", (as most Australians do), we do get out occasionally! The; life expectancy, infant mortality, rate of substance abuse etc compared to the non-Aboriginal population is well known, and has been for decades. It is a national disgrace! Repeated governments have thrown buckets of money at "the problem", with little improvement for those most in need.

Blaming the victim (Aboriginals), is easy but does little to solve "the problem".

Native title has nothing to do with "political correctness". The "Marbo" case went to the High court of Australia and set a precedent, it's the law, not the invention of some, Latte sipping, know it all group in the city.

Your problem is with the law, not Aboriginal people. But never let the facts get in the way of a good discussion!

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

AMEN

WOW! Outbackjack, are you trying to alienate yourself from as many people as possible in the one thread?

While I support your right to hold and express any view you like, I disagree.
http://www.nt.gov.au/dcm/parks/parks/index.shtml
This link also disagrees and makes all you claim about entry fees and non-access to National parks absolute rubbish.

You disagree with the government, but take your anger out on Aboriginal people. You don't need to post pictures of Aboriginals. Even though I live in the "city", (as most Australians do), we do get out occasionally! The; life expectancy, infant mortality, rate of substance abuse etc compared to the non-Aboriginal population is well known, and has been for decades. It is a national disgrace! Repeated governments have thrown buckets of money at "the problem", with little improvement for those most in need.

Blaming the victim (Aboriginals), is easy but does little to solve "the problem".

Native title has nothing to do with "political correctness". The "Marbo" case went to the High court of Australia and set a precedent, it's the law, not the invention of some, Latte sipping, know it all group in the city.

Your problem is with the law, not Aboriginal people. But never let the facts get in the way of a good discussion!

As I said earlier on in my posting, I agreed that posting pictures was getting away from the FACT that more land is going the way of a few based on skin colour. The latte sipping do gooders in the main cities are part of the probem. And for you to say that Aboriginals are "victims" simply shows your lack of understanding of the situation here in the bush. We are all victims of our own actions.

But like I said canning the Indiginous folk does not make any difference to the fact that soon many of this countries jewels will be private property ie Ayres rock. Do you think that if this was not such an international icon that you would have acces to it?? It already has a poor reputation in the tourist industry as un reliable destination. People fly there from all corners of the globe simply to find that the rock is closed for "cultural reasons". It is regulary closed with no notice at all. This could be repeated all over the territory and perhaps Australia as whole. Sure, I am angry at the situation. But I am far more aware of the attitude of the soon to be recipients(SP?) of these parks.

Here is an example. How much do you reckon a block of land would cost in ASP? we are surounded by billions acres of land..... Guess what? You cant get a block of land out here. We are land locked by Aboriginal owned land. Its takes years of tippy toeing around their "beliefs" to get a few hectares of land for development. Thats the crux of the issue..... This country is not being shared equally with equality...... I bet if you came and lived out here for a month or two you would have a totally different outlook on the indiginous people. Every freind that has visited us out here came with big city sympathy, and left with a dose of outback reality.

Dont take anything that you read on that web site as being true. The truth of the matter is that Clare Matin is giving away "OUR" national parks as electoral pay back. Deals done in back rooms for Indiginous votes.

I guess the issue here with black people and land give aways go hand in hand. Many of these parks were established decades ago and have been jointly managed successfully ever since. When indiginous land groups get these parks given to them, do you think you will be welcomed with open arms or do you think that you will have to carry a wad of cash to get a welcome hug???

Peace, and a fair go to everyone.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

As I said earlier on in my posting, I agreed that posting pictures was getting away from the FACT that more land is going the way of a few based on skin colour. The latte sipping do gooders in the main cities are part of the probem. And for you to say that Aboriginals are "victims" simply shows your lack of understanding of the situation here in the bush. We are all victims of our own actions.

But like I said canning the Indiginous folk does not make any difference to the fact that soon many of this countries jewels will be private property ie Ayres rock. Do you think that if this was not such an international icon that you would have acces to it?? It already has a poor reputation in the tourist industry as un reliable destination. People fly there from all corners of the globe simply to find that the rock is closed for "cultural reasons". It is regulary closed with no notice at all. This could be repeated all over the territory and perhaps Australia as whole. Sure, I am angry at the situation. But I am far more aware of the attitude of the soon to be recipients(SP?) of these parks.

Here is an example. How much do you reckon a block of land would cost in ASP? we are surounded by billions acres of land..... Guess what? You cant get a block of land out here. We are land locked by Aboriginal owned land. Its takes years of tippy toeing around their "beliefs" to get a few hectares of land for development. Thats the crux of the issue..... This country is not being shared equally with equality...... I bet if you came and lived out here for a month or two you would have a totally different outlook on the indiginous people. Every freind that has visited us out here came with big city sympathy, and left with a dose of outback reality.

Dont take anything that you read on that web site as being true. The truth of the matter is that Clare Matin is giving away "OUR" national parks as electoral pay back. Deals done in back rooms for Indiginous votes.

I guess the issue here with black people and land give aways go hand in hand. Many of these parks were established decades ago and have been jointly managed successfully ever since. When indiginous land groups get these parks given to them, do you think you will be welcomed with open arms or do you think that you will have to carry a wad of cash to get a welcome hug???

Peace, and a fair go to everyone.

Arrrrr.... not quite sure we are on the same page Outbackjack, and am becoming less interested as the thread goes on, but that's about me not you! You either didn't understand what I posted, have an agenda you wish to follow no matter what others say, or have pigonholed me with what you think I mean and gone off on a tangent based on that.

I don't buy into this whole bush Vs city divide, we are all in this together.

I was not a Jew during WW2, I was not an Australian solider captured by the Japanese, I have not lived under Stalin, Pol Pot or Saddam Hussein. I would bow to the knowledge of anyone who did live through these dark times. I know what happened was not right and should not have been allowed to go on for so long.

I have little experience living with the indigenous people of NT, I don't live there. I would bow to your, or anyone elses superior knowledge in that area. I do understand that there are very serious problems. I understand that the problems have been allowed to go on too long. And that we as fellow human beings have an obligation to do something about it. I am not blaming anyone for the plight of indigenous Australians.

Aboriginals are the "victims" of really poor health! I don't have to live in the bush to understand that. The fact that the reasons may be self inflicted mean little to the outcome for everyone involved. We have a "no-blame" health system, you can smoke yourself to death, drink drive, spend your whole life overweight and our health system still looks after you when things go wrong.

Your claims that everything the government says are lies, and everything you say is the truth will be up to individuals to work out for themselves. Your basic misunderstanding of why the decisions have been made should give people an idea.

I'm not calling anyone a racist but my Collins pocket dictionary says;"discriminatory, oppressive, abusive, or aggressive behaviour towards people because they belong to a different race. The belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with intrinsic superiority"

I experienced "racism" toward me as an Australian travelling overseas. At the time I thought is was funny and latter just plain stupid. Fancy anyone believing all Australian males were like the child molesters they caught in Thailand several years ago! Racism is just plain stupid.

As a side note, great Aussie film "The Castle" with Michael Caton. Anyone who's still a little miffed with the "Marbo" decision should get it on video. It's a great laugh also.

[SunDrifter]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

I bet if you came and lived out here for a month or two you would have a totally different outlook on the indiginous people. Every freind that has visited us out here came with big city sympathy, and left with a dose of outback reality.

I deadset couldn't agree with you more Outback. And i'm sick people suggesting that comments like this is racist.

You know what's racist. When i go out on my lunch break and walk past an aboriginal group, only to be spat at and to hear "what are you f*&kin looking at ya white f*&k" simply because i refuse to look at my feet when walking past them. (hell, i wasn't even looking at them!)

Seriously, say, south of Mackay, chances are, you don't know the problems are.

You haven't seen them.

One of my previous jobs involved working on the computers and networks of the local council offices for Aboriginal and Islander communities. So i have met quite a few great, hard working Aboriginals (and islanders). But sadly, they are the true minority.