Twilight for the traditional ICE automobile

[PG2]

Any further mention of Elon Musk and how much he earns or how rich he is will have their post deleted and I may even hand out a few short holidays.

[lra]

Originally Posted by PG2

Any further mention of Elon Musk and how much he earns or how rich he is will have their post deleted and I may even hand out a few short holidays.

Create a separate forum thread with one subject only, and the disciples of Electric Jesus and his wonky wheeled carts can bang on as much as they like, leaving us in blissful ignorance, and with our love of dinosaur juice.

[Ben73]

Just refrain from using the E word or the T word and they take their own little holiday.

[hayseed]

electric cars accounted for 0.56 per cent of all new motor vehicles sold in Australia in 2020

https://www.caradvice.com.au/914746/...-cent-in-2020/

I reckon the ICE powered Car is pretty safe for few more years Yet..

[b0son]

Originally Posted by hayseed

I reckon the ICE powered Car is pretty safe for few more years Yet..

Yes, but largely due to supply constraints.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

Yes, but largely due to supply constraints.

This! will be interesting once all the manufacturers start to roll out their offerings locally. There are so many cars available globally but they can't supply the demand in their own markets let alone export to us (with the added RHD development). Mini EV's have 6-8 month wait times at the moment and are one of the cheaper EV's. Hyundai/Nissan as well. So much demand, so little supply.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by b0son

Yes, but largely due to supply constraints.

I'd say price tags have a lot to do with it, which incidentally is factored in the cost of ownership

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

I'd say price tags have a lot to do with it, which incidentally is factored in the cost of ownership

Maybe supply of the cheaper EV model is also the issue. They exist in overseas markets (without considering Tax breaks and other incentives) but aren't imported into Australia at the moment due to our viewed resistance to change.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by kypez

(without considering Tax breaks and other incentives) but aren't imported into Australia at the moment due to our viewed resistance to change.

Bet buyers market would change if they handed out ABN holder tax breaks like they did with dual cab Thai utes.
Maybe an electric ute market would kick start change with the same tax incentives.

Was equally amazing how ICE sedans died out shortly after this tax break was introduced.

[tweeked]

It also means twilight of the Car Enthusiast forums.

Pretty quiet over at Fisher and Paykel forums......has been forever.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by tweeked

It also means twilight of the Car Enthusiast forums.

Pretty quiet over at Fisher and Paykel forums......has been forever.

Not really. Just a new kind of enthusiast coming through. There doesn't have to be only 1 type of car enthusiast. We have 4x4 ones, performance cars, drifting, etc... so many to choose from. The propulsion source is not the be all and end all.

Did we say it was the end of motorsport when a diesel engine won the Le Mans?!

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by kypez

Not really. Just a new kind of enthusiast coming through. There doesn't have to be only 1 type of car enthusiast. We have 4x4 ones, performance cars, drifting, etc... so many to choose from. The propulsion source is not the be all and end all.

Did we say it was the end of motorsport when a diesel engine won the Le Mans?!

It will be interesting to see. I have a thought on the subject. The more there is to go wrong with something, the more likely it is that it will have a following of people that love something beyond its normal utility. The complexity of the ICE, so much that can break, be modified, it breaths, it nearly has a heartbeat. It is so inefficient, that there is always methods to make them better etc. All this means they are interesting to talk about, and very little to prove that your way is the best, which leads to hundreds of thousands of conversations.

Electric motors, well, you can put more current through..........get a bigger or more efficient battery........ and then? Each to their own, and by the way, diesel is an ICE, not as nice, but still ICE. I just had to google to see if Formula E is still going.

There is nothing wrong with electric - it is necessary, it is more efficient. I just can't see there ever being 50 year old electric cars going for $1000000, guys reviving them form an inch of the crusher, epic build threads.

I will be that old romantic sitting outside the nursing home talking about cam overlap, the smell of unburnt fuel, hitting the limiter when you didn't mean to, changing gears (remember gears!!) and the only battery worries I had was will she turn over after having the stereo on for too long while I worked on the car in the garage!

[kypez]

Originally Posted by tweeked

It will be interesting to see. I have a thought on the subject. The more there is to go wrong with something, the more likely it is that it will have a following of people that love something beyond its normal utility. The complexity of the ICE, so much that can break, be modified, it breaths, it nearly has a heartbeat. It is so inefficient, that there is always methods to make them better etc. All this means they are interesting to talk about, and very little to prove that your way is the best, which leads to hundreds of thousands of conversations.

Electric motors, well, you can put more current through..........get a bigger or more efficient battery........ and then? Each to their own, and by the way, diesel is an ICE, not as nice, but still ICE. I just had to google to see if Formula E is still going.

There is nothing wrong with electric - it is necessary, it is more efficient. I just can't see there ever being 50 year old electric cars going for $1000000, guys reviving them form an inch of the crusher, epic build threads.

I will be that old romantic sitting outside the nursing home talking about cam overlap, the smell of unburnt fuel, hitting the limiter when you didn't mean to, changing gears (remember gears!!) and the only battery worries I had was will she turn over after having the stereo on for too long while I worked on the car in the garage!

I'll tell you most "enthusiasts" will have no clue about cams or anything such. They are more interested in Big wheels, putting tyres that are too big for the wheel on them, cutting springs, and so on. You get the idea. All of these things can be done in the EV world as well (sadly!).

Diesel might have been ICE but it was never regarded well in motorsport. Look at the current crop of Hypercars/Supercars, the fastest ones all have some form of electrification.

Sure, you can over simplify and say its as simple of passing more power through the system, thats it. Well, its not. Takes a lot of clever engineering to keep a high performance electric motor working and consistently (look at all the MGUK failures in F1, its not as simple as you think).

Manuals have been disappearing for over 25 years now... Maybe more. There was a time when if you were an enthusiast you drove a manual. That changed. Now its ICE... That too will change.

I will enjoy my ICE till my last days but just like my ICE cars now, I do the engine last. So much can be done with suspension, unsprung weight, spring rates, tyres, wheels, brakes, the list goes on before the engine ever comes into question. But then again, I like circuit work and am not a straight line performance enthusiast. But I wouldn't call someone driving an auto (or manual) in a straight line any less of an enthusiast if they're passionate about it.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by kypez

Look at the current crop of Hypercars/Supercars, the fastest ones all have some form of electrification.

All except the three fastest

[b0son]

Originally Posted by kypez

Not really. Just a new kind of enthusiast coming through.

One need only look at the way people are hacking their powerwalls. Tomorrow's enthusiasts will be programmers, not mechanics.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

One need only look at the way people are hacking their powerwalls. Tomorrow's enthusiasts will be programmers, not mechanics.

I'd argue since EFI, enthusiasts have been programmers for a while now.

[CyberWasp]

Back many of millions of years ago,
I think Crocodiles laughed when they were told that Dinosaurs where in their twilight.

[Crazy Dazz]

Nah
People will buy hybrids because they're gullible, but can still buy their overprice crap with all it's accoutrements, whilst patting themselves on the back for saving the planet, and getting their daily dose of smugness, all at no inconvenience to themselves.
EV's have a way to go yet, although fans of bus-biscuits will get there sooner.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Nah
People will buy hybrids because they're gullible, but can still buy their overprice crap with all it's accoutrements, whilst patting themselves on the back for saving the planet, and getting their daily dose of smugness, all at no inconvenience to themselves.
EV's have a way to go yet, although fans of bus-biscuits will get there sooner.

I'm the least convinced person to be praising EV's but I can not see why the mining industry would be any different to say the building industry trialling this.
New houses (and estates) are built all the time away from grid connection at first, all the local trades either have portable generator power, powering their tools or sun power, charging their battery packs.

On a grand scale......

I can see large sun tracking solar arrays set up to charge the fleets of onsite utes simply driving into a charger parking cradle while they swap between fully charged vehicles and depleted charge vehicles.
Won't happen now but as large companies are given incentives to go EV why wouldn't they.
I mean they are saving money cutting jobs with fully automated equipment this would be just another step beyond that especially as most of them would probably like to claim carbon credits.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I'm the least convinced person to be praising EV's but I can not see why the mining industry would be any different to say the building industry trialling this.
New houses (and estates) are built all the time away from grid connection at first, all the local trades either have portable generator power, powering their tools or sun power, charging their battery packs.

On a grand scale......

I can see large sun tracking solar arrays set up to charge the fleets of onsite utes simply driving into a charger parking cradle while they swap between fully charged vehicles and depleted charge vehicles.
Won't happen now but as large companies are given incentives to go EV why wouldn't they.
I mean they are saving money cutting jobs with fully automated equipment this would be just another step beyond that especially as most of them would probably like to claim carbon credits.

Using EVs underground would be beneficial, until you consider that behind collapse and flooding, the biggest danger underground is fire, and the majority of fires are electrical.

There's also the matter of inertia. We have to provide Utes, often for a single supervisor to drive short distances as very low speed. I've often pontificated that something similar to a golf buggy would be more than adequate.

A majority of LVs are used on dayshift only, so they could charge overnight, but the reality is that they are literally not even a drop in the bucket.
Until such time as battery powered haul-trucks become viable, there's no real point.

Furthermore a lot of mines are powered by diesel power.

I worked on the project to build what was then the largest off-grid solar power installation in Australia...
And it was a complete disaster, talk about your White-Elephants.
I can only assume that our domestic grid is much more tolerant of dirty power? Or that the amounts being fed in are relatively small? Any time we tried to take the solar farm above about 30% output, it tripped the whole grid.
Needless to say they also wasted millions on sea-container battery-packs, that were complete duds. Last I heard they had given up on those.
We ended up having to expand the Diesel powerhouse to cover, and pay a premium for nighttime power.

[Sprintey]

The C63, wow, that's going to make the current V8 ones collector muscle almost instantly.

Might as well go full electric for performance now if not done beforehand.

[tweeked]

One interesting thing with EV's will the barrier to LHD/RHD be lowered to nowhere near the issue it is with ICE? As most controls become drive by wire, you really are only moving your playstation controls over to the other side of the car.

[kypez]

Couldn't agree with this more. Who gets excited by a Camry engine?!

https://youtu.be/DGjFwZZpxS8

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by kypez

Couldn't agree with this more. Who gets excited by a Camry engine?!

Well, I know someone. As long as it's a V6


I think he made a pretty good point about making all the normal cars electric but still having a few performance vehicles around. I'm sure there will be places where ice cars can drive around for several decades to come. Even if it's just race tracks and other dedicated hobby locations

[kypez]

The Twilight is starting early. I don't understand this car anymore. Its heavier, slower and the extra complexity. Why bother with it?!

https://www.caradvice.com.au/920269/...0kw-and-800nm/

2022 Mercedes-AMG C63: Four-cylinder hybrid to develop 410kW and 800Nm – report

he next-generation 2022 Mercedes-AMG C63 could extract over 400kW from its turbocharged four-cylinder hybrid system.

According to a report in the February 2021 issue of the UK's Car magazine, the next-gen C63 will produce a total of 410kW of power and 800Nm of torque, thanks to the smaller A45 S's 310kW/500Nm 2.0-litre engine and three electrified elements: a 150kW rear electric motor (operated independently of the gearbox), a starter-generator mild-hybrid system and an electrically-driven turbocharger.

Those outputs are 35kW and 100Nm up over the outgoing C63 S – despite half the cylinders, a move dictated by strict new European CO2 emissions rules – and a staggering 35kW/200Nm over the Mercedes-AMG's closest German rival, the new, six-cylinder BMW M3 Competition.

It's unclear whether those outputs will be produced by the 'base' C63, or a higher-performance S model.

However, the electrified power boost comes at the cost of weight, with the hybrid system reportedly adding 250kg of mass, taking the new C63's kerb weight to a hefty 2000kg – over 400kg more than the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio, another of the C63's class and performance rivals.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by kypez

The Twilight is starting early. I don't understand this car anymore. Its heavier, slower and the extra complexity. Why bother with it?!

https://www.caradvice.com.au/920269/...0kw-and-800nm/

2022 Mercedes-AMG C63: Four-cylinder hybrid to develop 410kW and 800Nm – report

he next-generation 2022 Mercedes-AMG C63 could extract over 400kW from its turbocharged four-cylinder hybrid system.

According to a report in the February 2021 issue of the UK's Car magazine, the next-gen C63 will produce a total of 410kW of power and 800Nm of torque, thanks to the smaller A45 S's 310kW/500Nm 2.0-litre engine and three electrified elements: a 150kW rear electric motor (operated independently of the gearbox), a starter-generator mild-hybrid system and an electrically-driven turbocharger.

Those outputs are 35kW and 100Nm up over the outgoing C63 S – despite half the cylinders, a move dictated by strict new European CO2 emissions rules – and a staggering 35kW/200Nm over the Mercedes-AMG's closest German rival, the new, six-cylinder BMW M3 Competition.

It's unclear whether those outputs will be produced by the 'base' C63, or a higher-performance S model.

However, the electrified power boost comes at the cost of weight, with the hybrid system reportedly adding 250kg of mass, taking the new C63's kerb weight to a hefty 2000kg – over 400kg more than the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio, another of the C63's class and performance rivals.

The Germans are losing the plot, its just becoming to complex. For performance cars just make a choice and stick with one system.

I get hybrids for dailies etc.

Its bad enough maintaining "simple" cars, its going to be costly down the path and IMO humanity has lost sight of longer term ownership of goods in general. This flys in the face of any sustainability BS they boast from corporate.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Polyal

The Germans are losing the plot, its just becoming to complex. For performance cars just make a choice and stick with one system.

I get hybrids for dailies etc.

Its bad enough maintaining "simple" cars, its going to be costly down the path and IMO humanity has lost sight of longer term ownership of goods in general. This flys in the face of any sustainability BS they boast from corporate.

I don't mind how the hybrids plug the gap in torque on certain performance cars but the C63s is more a GT car than a Sports car. It makes little sense to me especially when the average user would only do a few laps of a track day at best.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Polyal

The Germans are losing the plot, its just becoming to complex. For performance cars just make a choice and stick with one system.

There is an expectation that the engine be desirable. A 4-cylinder isnt. So they add hybrid tech to crank the power as a marketing compromise.

It's completely logical they would do this. Nobodys going to pay $150k for a 300kW 4-cyl C63.

[Falcon SXR8]

Originally Posted by Polyal

IMO humanity has lost sight of longer term ownership of goods in general. This flys in the face of any sustainability BS they boast from corporate.

This 100%, the amount of waste from people wanting the latest and greatest, the whole shift to a throw away society just makes me shake my head. Most people harping on about electric vehicles couldn't give a stuff about the environment, they just want a shiny new toy.

[Bossxr8]

The next C63 has just completely lost it's appeal. People buy it cause it's a loud, brash, V8 powered thug.

Who the hell wants a 4 cylinder hybrid version? Way to completely avoid what the buyer wants.