OT: Holden's new small car strategy - Page 2

Teki04 · 15-06-2005, 05:32 PM

hmmmmm..... I think the fiesta has a shot at getting the Barina sales now! I dont understand, the Kalos didnt sell as much as the barina was selling, AND STILL IS! Doesn't make sense in my opinion.... 1000cars/month down to 200ish cars/month... Plz explain?!?!??!

As for the Viva... it looks good... but an engine from a Camira?!?!?! 1970s?!?!?!.... are we not in the year 2005?!?!

MITCHAY · 17-06-2005, 12:48 PM

Another insult to Holdens small car crap. Anyone heard of the Holden Tigra? What a piece of crap. Give me a Focus any day.

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/...y?vehicleid=28

Teki04 · 17-06-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Another insult to Holdens small car crap. Anyone heard of the Holden Tigra? What a piece of crap. Give me a Focus any day.

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/...y?vehicleid=28

ummm.... dont think the competitor of the tigra is the focus.... that is the astra's job! The Tigra is up against the 206CC and the Mini Cooper Cabrio NA

MITCHAY · 17-06-2005, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teki04

ummm.... dont think the competitor of the tigra is the focus.... that is the astra's job! The Tigra is up against the 206CC and the Mini Cooper Cabrio NA

Yeah im just making the point that it is really bad. Just goes to show that Holden cant get their small car segment right.

Teki04 · 17-06-2005, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Yeah im just making the point that it is really bad. Just goes to show that Holden cant get their small car segment right.

Im not sure its aimed at the small car market.... like i said its not intended to be a guys car..... its a chicksmobile like the 206CC and Mini Cabrio 1.6L. I think it will sell well..... the 206CC sure does. Its not a sports hatch either.... for that they have the Barina SRi...which dont knock, its great bang for bucks!

lincoln · 17-06-2005, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Yeah im just making the point that it is really bad. Just goes to show that Holden cant get their small car segment right.

I'm sure Holden had a say in it's development! Reviews of the car suggest it's actually quite a neat car. What exactly is your point, other than showing your dislike of anything with a Holden badge?

I admire that Holden is at least having a go at more segments than Ford are. More variations in the Barina. They have a Zafira, Ford have nothing in that segment. They have the Vectra, Ford failed dismally with the Mondeo and abandoned the market. Holden are attempting the Tigra, did we see a Ford Ka convertible? Kudos where Kudos are due, in my opinion.

Not that I'm a fan of their cars, but at least they commit fairly well to their markets.

MITCHAY · 17-06-2005, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lincoln

I'm sure Holden had a say in it's development! Reviews of the car suggest it's actually quite a neat car. What exactly is your point, other than showing your dislike of anything with a Holden badge?

I admire that Holden is at least having a go at more segments than Ford are. More variations in the Barina. They have a Zafira, Ford have nothing in that segment. They have the Vectra, Ford failed dismally with the Mondeo and abandoned the market. Holden are attempting the Tigra, did we see a Ford Ka convertible? Kudos where Kudos are due, in my opinion.

Not that I'm a fan of their cars, but at least they commit fairly well to their markets.

Actually im more of a Holden fan. I go for Holden for V8 Supercars, and like Holden V8s and 6s. I just dont like their small car line up. Hence why ive got a TX5 Ghia.

Mick K. · 17-06-2005, 09:25 PM

Focus C-Max is the competitor to the Zafira in Europe I think?

I don't have a problem with Holdens - particularly the European ones - my wife has a '99 Vectra V6 and we test drove a new Vectra hatch today as a possible replacement to go alongside my Focus in the garage.

I just think Holden's substitution of a Euro designed and built car for a Korean one, (that if it wore Daewoo badges no one would buy), is pretty cheap & I hope they get burned for it.

MK

murcod · 17-06-2005, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Actually im more of a Holden fan. I go for Holden for V8 Supercars, and like Holden V8s and 6s. I just dont like their small car line up. Hence why ive got a TX5 Ghia.

So you like Mazdas then?

It would be an understatement to say some people in here are one eyed and will bag anything Holden does!! :hihi: It's great to support your favourite brand, but try and be rational about it! (BTW Mitchay I'm not directing that at you in particular.)

Holden have got the Astra convertible (which I believe is the highest selling convertible in Australia?)- Ford have got nothing. Ford's last attempt at a convertible was laughable- remember the Capri?? Now Holden are bringing in another smaller convertible, good on them. If it's priced right they'll have a winner.

As has already been said Ford bailed out of the Aussie medium sized market. There's no reason the Mondeo couldn't have sold every bit as well as the Vectra- they chose to hardly advertise it and dragged their heels on bringing the V6 engine over here.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find Ford's marketing campaigns for their small cars very "cheezy". The Fiesta adverts with the geeky "Germans" are very ordinary IMHO and certainly wouldn't attract me to buy one. Holden on the other hand try and portray their small cars as more upmarket and in a stylish light- the sort of ad that attracts younger buyers. Ford could learn from them IMHO.

lincoln · 18-06-2005, 12:41 AM

Just look at resale values on their non-falcon cars and that explains a sorry tale of half hearted attempts in segments where they had great products. How many times I hear "Ford should sell this", it's just not funny. I am a huge fan of the brand, but Ford Australia has a questionable track record.

I can just see the Focus TDCi coming out and being the only diesel in the entire Ford line up for 3 years and then being dropped. I can also see the Focus ST never coming here and Australia being left without a hot small car... my ST170 will be an orphan... although, it already is at just 140 cars brought in and barely sold.

Compare that to Holden that has done tremendously well with Astra and Barina, and less so with Vectra. I've said for years, Ford would be great with Holden's marketing department. Do you know the new Mondeo was actually brought to Oz, customer clinics done on it and then it didn't get launched here because of the AU debacle and BA launch? At a time when medium cars were criticised for being bland, a medium car with flair was denied to the Australian market for fear of it's impact on BA. Whilst in NZ it won COTY and sells successfully side by side with Falcon.

Anyway, enough ranting. I still love my Fords, but they've got issues in Australia, IMO.

lincoln · 18-06-2005, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick K.

Focus C-Max is the competitor to the Zafira in Europe I think?

Yep, that's right. They also have the Galaxy to compete in the Tarago size, but that's probably being satisfied by Territory, so I'm not about to call for an MPV to be brought to Oz!

Appears Holden won't be replacing the Zafira with the new model, well not right away, anyway.

MITCHAY · 18-06-2005, 02:53 AM

Yeah. Large cars im Holden fan all the way but small cars i like the Fords. I just think they have the edge on it. I mean cmon TX5 Ghia Vs Barina or Astra it wasnt a hard choice to make. All this aside though i think my next car will be an Integra Type R :sm_headba But you never know. I started off wanting a VL commy and ended up with a TX5. Really none of the Holden small cars have ever appealed to me. Then again Id say that their main interest is in the large car segment and they are well tapped into that. I just say hats off to Ford for bringn out the gun 4cylinders. Wouldnt mind a pimped out Focus at all. The only criticism i have about the Ford small cars is that Ka. I have no idea why the hell that even came out. I have a wide variety of taste in cars.

murcod · 18-06-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I just say hats off to Ford for bringn out the gun 4cylinders.

What "gun" four cylinders has Ford got at the moment? The ST170 got widely criticized for it's lack of real world power. The new Focus has to make do with the 2.0l 107kw (IIRC?) engine in a car that weighs nearly as much as my V6 ST24.

Holden's have got the Barina SRi with the Astra 1.8l fitted - the Fiesta's got nothing to compete with it. They've also had/ have the Astra SRi with the 2.2l Vectra engine and the SRi Turbo; plus the convertible is available in both turbo and N/A engines. They'll soon have the new Tigra convertible with the 1.8l as well (should have a good power to weight ratio).

Realistically Ford don't seem interested in bringing out the hot engines to Australia in the small to medium segment.

lincoln · 18-06-2005, 03:39 PM

Totally agree with David there. Mondeo ST24, ST170, Cougar and Probe are all examples of half hearted attempts by Ford Australia to inject spice into their small to medium sport segment. Even their regular (non falcon based) cars have not done as well as they should have.

Look at Escape vs Tribute and Laser vs 323 recently. Mazda outsold Ford in almost every (and possibly every) single model range there. In a car that was identical. The Laser when it was built here outsold the 323, but when they switched to fully importing it, Ford quickly languished behind Mazda. They then axe the Laser and give us Focus (with so much teasing the model looked outdated by the time we got it!), but it did not meet the initial bullish sales expectations.

The products are great, so there's a marketing problem, either to the public or through the dealers.

BTW, the new Tigra with its metal roof is a bit of a slug with the 1.8. But, not any slower than the slug 206 CC, so it's on par.

Also, the Ka is highly successful in the UK. I'm actually a fan of it, but the micro car market is very tough. You have to commit to it and market to it, otherwise noone knows it's there. The margins on these cars is small, but you have to get people into the brand so they can move up into larger cars in the same brand later. So you have to invest in the small cars with your marketing. Not expect that they will just sell on their own merits and make a massive profit on them.

Teki04 · 18-06-2005, 06:02 PM

I agree with bringing the Mondeo to Australia. The Medium market is booming with the impreza, Mazda6, Accord Euro, Vectra... i guess ford is relying on the Focus Sedan?

As for the TX5 vs barina...... not sure if they were competitors IMO. Small Vs Medium? huh?

As for Holden bringing out fast hatches, SO TRUE! The LATEST SRi (nov+ 04) with the red brakes and upgraded bumpers is just to die for! I must disagree with ford not having anything to compete with! The Fiesta has a 1.6L.... the SRi has a 1.8L.... BUT the base model Barina has a lousy 1.4L! At least the Fiesta is halfway. And its for this reason that even if the ST came out here... i dont think it would compete with the Barina SRi, but rather the 206 GTI and the likes of the Clio.

But its all so true, Ford dont have sporty small hatches, and there marketing is absolute crap! The fiesta ad is a disgrace! I think they have learnt, as lately i havent been seeing that German Engineers commercial, and instead a Silver Zetec with 16s driving through the streets of what looks like a european city. About time! I just hope they learn... and dont have South Africans lying on the bonnet of the Focus

:

MITCHAY · 18-06-2005, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teki04

I agree with bringing the Mondeo to Australia. The Medium market is booming with the impreza, Mazda6, Accord Euro, Vectra... i guess ford is relying on the Focus Sedan?

I love those Mazda6s. I reckon they are tops. There is even a turbo version out or is comming out by memory it had 190kw.

lincoln · 18-06-2005, 09:33 PM

I saw the German Fiesta ad in the last week. Fiesta ST is targetted at 206 GTI (not 180) and Citroen C2 VTS. They should've targetted the RenaultSportClio and 206 GTI 180 but didn't. They stopped halfway at 150hp and left the big fight to the RS, which we won't get either.

Also the current Mondeo is a bit long in the tooth now. Hopefully Ford will reconsider importing when the new model comes out late next year.

Mick K. · 18-06-2005, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I love those Mazda6s. I reckon they are tops. There is even a turbo version out or is comming out by memory it had 190kw.

Have you driven a Mazda6 - and you still like them??

I recently compared Vectra CD 2.2 and Mazda6 2.3 Classic auto hatches and the Vectra has a higher quality cabin, much quieter engine, and an extra ratio in the gearbox. Noise and harshness are a lot more apparent in the Mazda.

Mazda is probably a bit better in the external styling department, and gets a rear spoiler and trip computer, but the RRP is about $2k more, requires PULP and needs servicing every 10K as opposed to 15K. Both good cars, but IMHO Vectra is a bit better.

Mazda's marketing & advertising people have done a fantastic job with the Zoom-Zoom-Zoom campaign - "soul of a sports car" etc. Compare the current image of Mazda6 compared with the cardigan and lawn bowls image of the preceeding Mazda 626. It has sucked in a lot of buyers as well as a good chunk of the motoring journalists.

While I think the Vectra is a better car, the success of Mazda's marketing means that sales volume and consumer awareness are higher, and resale is better - so this is actually making me consider a car I like less, just because it will be easier to offload in 3 years at a better price.

Pity the current model Mondeo isn't around in Aus to compare to these two large hatches. Who know's I could have a Mazda6 in my garage by the end of this financial year.

MK

zetec · 19-06-2005, 02:26 AM

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...d=1#post201562

This link (and containted article) pretty much sums up some of your questions there Teki, from the opinion of a carpoint reviewer. Brings a tear to the eye to see a Camry getting completely and utterly bashed. A tear of pride for the Focus!!

murcod · 19-06-2005, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick K.

I recently compared Vectra CD 2.2 and Mazda6 2.3 Classic auto hatches and the Vectra has a higher quality cabin, much quieter engine, and an extra ratio in the gearbox. Noise and harshness are a lot more apparent in the Mazda.

Mazda is probably a bit better in the external styling department, and gets a rear spoiler and trip computer, but the RRP is about $2k more, requires PULP and needs servicing every 10K as opposed to 15K. Both good cars, but IMHO Vectra is a bit better.

I was looking at the old model Vectra when I bought the ST24. There were a lot of people complaining about problems with them- things like engines stalling, rattles, steering problems, rust, EFI problems etc etc. Do your research before paying the $$$ (hopefully the new model is better??) ;)

I'd put my money on the Mazda 6 for trouble free motoring, plus I imagine parts would be cheaper?

MITCHAY · 19-06-2005, 11:04 PM

Ive never drove a Mazda6 before but i reckon they look really nice.

lincoln · 20-06-2005, 02:08 AM

I drove a US built 6 around Colorado and was impressed, but not as impressed as I was with the Mondeo I had in NZ. The 6 had more power, but as a package I preferred the Mondeo. The engine didn't feel very powerful, but it could've been the altitude I was driving at more than the car... plus US roads are a bit mind numbingly boring, even in the twisty roads of the mountains.

Mick K. · 20-06-2005, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mondeost24

I was looking at the old model Vectra when I bought the ST24. There were a lot of people complaining about problems with them- things like engines stalling, rattles, steering problems, rust, EFI problems etc etc. Do your research before paying the $$$ (hopefully the new model is better??) ;)

I'd put my money on the Mazda 6 for trouble free motoring, plus I imagine parts would be cheaper?

My wife's current car - which will be a trade-in is a '99 Vectra V6 so we are happy with the reliability we've had with it. Reading the new Focus specs closely, the boot is only 2cm shorter than the previous Vectra, so if it passes the "pram lengthways in the boot test" a new Focus LX (auto unfortunately) may also be in the running to be the new family car!

MK

Teki04 · 21-06-2005, 07:55 PM

If holden does choose to get the new Vectra unreveiled in UK this week... ford has an even bigger problem. It looks really nice! "2.8-litre turbocharged V6 mated to a six-speed auto gearbox"

Check it out...
http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/st...E21822,00.html

BRING ON THE MONDEO DAMNIT!

lincoln · 21-06-2005, 08:42 PM

I can't stand the Vauxhall/Opel nose at the moment. The Vectra is on a very good platform, it really should handle much better than it does, so hopefully they've gotten their act together with the revamp. That article smells awfully like the rubbish that UK Autocar pumps out. Lots of excitement about a new car that really isn't that new. You should've seen how they carried on about the Mondeo facelift whilst I was there! A few bits of chrome and it was "all new"!!

out: