Drag Racing Events and Rules - FF.COM.AU

[Casper]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

The mustang had a air scoop incorporated in the Bonnet the XB didn't u will be suprised if u read on the History of the XB's

Still doesnt change the fact that simple physics says they will draw air in, not expell hot air Alex.
The XB GT scoops are intakes.

[smciner1]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

The mustang had a air scoop incorporated in the Bonnet the XB didn't u will be suprised if u read on the History of the XB's

Yes, the Mustang was available with a Bolt on Plenum that fitted under the bonnet. There is a kit now available to do this for the Falcons, but the top surface of the bonnets were still very similar.

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by Casper

Can you explain how these sort of vents can do anything else but act as an intake for cool air? Sheer physics of air movement say air will go in , not out, in a forward moving XB. That, and the position of the intakes directly in front of the air cleaner can only ever act as a cold air intake.


I have even seen one in Geelong (Shane knows it well) that has had the air filter modified to directly suck air in from these intakes.

Casper the aircleaner assembly on a standard XB GT wouldn't benefit from these scoops :

[Casper]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

Casper the aircleaner assembly on a standard XB GT wouldn't benefit from these scoops :

on a std one, no, but it would not be difficult to change to take advantage of them as intakes. In forward movement they will intake air and, as such, are able to be used as an intake.
The reason for this discussion is to say that, like the other rules put forward, and intake on an XB that didnt have these as standard should be allowed as they are on the GT's (and many other XB's) as standard. Wether they are used as an effective intake is up to the owner but the potential for them to be used is there.

[smciner1]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

Casper the aircleaner assembly on a standard XB GT wouldn't benefit from these scoops :

No, it wouldn't much at all with a standard Snorkel Air Cleaner Assembly (especailly with the Vacuum Operated Flap), and yes when fitted this way, it is good for letting hot air out. But when the Plenum was fitted underneath, it was pressurised (when the car was travelling forward) forcing air into the Engine, in the same was as a Shaker.

I hope this ends the arguing and gets the thread back on track.

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by smciner1

No, it wouldn't much at all with a standard Snorkel Air Cleaner Assembly (especailly with the Vacuum Operated Flap), and yes when fitted this way, it is good for letting hot air out. But when the Plenum was fitted underneath, it was pressurised (when the car was travelling forward) forcing air into the Engine, in the same was as a Shaker.

I hope this ends the arguing and gets the thread back on track.

All i am saying is these scoops were not a function for an air intake from the factory there purpose was for other reasons that i have explained as above.A cold air is a ram effect,and if these were used for an induction scoop a carby wouldn't benefit from air passing above it anyway.Casper they are scoops but not induction scoops from factory please read up on these topics before posting! :

[smciner1]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

All i am saying is these scoops were not a function for an air intake from the factory

Yes, they were never plumbed up from the factory.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

All i am saying is these scoops were not a function for an air intake from the factory there purpose was for other reasons that i have explained as above.A cold air is a ram effect,and if these were used for an induction scoop a carby wouldn't benefit from air passing above it anyway.Casper they are scoops but not induction scoops from factory please read up on these topics before posting! :

Actually Alex, maybe it would be better for you to read up on the context first before trying to simply make it an argument.

Simple facts:
Performance Street has this in it: "No body mods allowed or chassis changes."

Brenx stated he has an intake on his XB that is not technically a performance enhancer. I stated that, based on the similar ruling of diffs " Diff/ratio change allowed but only to what Ford bring out eg my ute runs 3.23 but autos run 3.45 so thats as high as i can go. " than, due to the XB GT having what everyone (except you) readily accepts as operational (as in cold air comes in) bonnet intakes that the body mods should probably not include an intake.

You then stated, quite clearly, that the XB GT bonnet uses them as hot air vents rather than intakes.

Casper the VENTS on the XB GT's were to let hot air out mate

Now, apart from you, EVERYONE else see's them as cold air intakes, including other XB GT owners. Whether they are plumbed in and functional is irrelevant in this, the fact they are there, capable of being used as an intake and std on the XB is the point. No different to having an LSD diff that is not working. The fact it has the components requires still say its an LSD. Same as having a shift kit, the fact it is turned off means nothing, it is there and capable of being used.

This is not hard to understand Alex. Before you start throwing tomatos maybe you should start reading things in context. Would save a hell of a lot of frustration on everyones behalf.

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by Casper

Actually Alex, maybe it would be better for you to read up on the context first before trying to simply make it an argument.

Simple facts:
Performance Street has this in it: "No body mods allowed or chassis changes."

Brenx stated he has an intake on his XB that is not technically a performance enhancer. I stated that, based on the similar ruling of diffs " Diff/ratio change allowed but only to what Ford bring out eg my ute runs 3.23 but autos run 3.45 so thats as high as i can go. " than, due to the XB GT having what everyone (except you) readily accepts as operational (as in cold air comes in) bonnet intakes that the body mods should probably not include an intake.

You then stated, quite clearly, that the XB GT bonnet uses them as hot air vents rather than intakes.


Now, apart from you, EVERYONE else see's them as cold air intakes, including other XB GT owners. Whether they are plumbed in and functional is irrelevant in this, the fact they are there, capable of being used as an intake and std on the XB is the point. No different to having an LSD diff that is not working. The fact it has the components requires still say its an LSD. Same as having a shift kit, the fact it is turned off means nothing, it is there and capable of being used.

This is not hard to understand Alex. Before you start throwing tomatos maybe you should start reading things in context. Would save a hell of a lot of frustration on everyones behalf.

Casper i will say it again mate they are not a Cold air intake for a XBGT out of the FACTORY stop trying to change history.U stated rules please back them up.I agree i stuffed up in saying vents as they are called a NASA scoop.I am not arguing i am debating there is a difference.

[smciner1]

I think we all get the point, they were never plumbed up from the Factory, but they can be.

Now, can we all please get this thread back on track and constructive.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

Casper i will say it again mate they are not a Cold air intake for a XBGT out of the FACTORY stop trying to change history.U stated rules please back them up.I agree i stuffed up in saying vents as they are called a NASA scoop.I am not arguing i am debating there is a difference.

No Alex, you stated quite clearly they were a hot air vent, something they are not while the car is in motion.
The context this whole thing is written in is "does a bonnet intake on a model car that had a factory intake fitted (and yes, regardless of if it was plumbed at the factory or not, the XB GT had intakes fitted to the bonnet) count as a body mod?" I put forward that my personal opinion is that it isnt based on the previous similar rule for diffs that states that the car can have something fitted to it that was factory for another car of the same model.
Now rather than debate this, you chose to say they were hot air vents... something no one else ... including probably every physics student and teacher in the world... agrees with.

So stick to the context which is:
"does an aftermarket bonnet intake on a model car that had a factory intake fitted count as a body mod?"

[outback_ute]

Ok, here are my ideas, sorry for the long post! If you want any clarification of my reasoning behind any aspect ask away, I am open to suggestion/debate.

Firstly, unless we're going to go to a lot of trouble with scrutineering we will basically have to rely on an honesty system, and people can just register in the correct class, and seek clarification if necessary. Eg see the LS1 drag national rules they check engine idle vacuum to see if the cam has been changed etc. We are not racing for sheep stations (at this stage anyway!).

The way I see it we are looking at the following classes (within the basic 4/6/8 n/a and turbo classes we already have). I have taken into account what "stages" people mod their cars to, ie start with very simple mags/exhaust then bolt-ons, then opened motor, etc. Older cars I have given a few more freedoms because A) they were slower to start with, and B) usually they will have been rebuilt and therefore be unlikely to be completely standard.

One important point is that these classes shouldn’t prevent you from doing what you want to chase a PB (eg pulling headlight or dropping exhaust, tailgate) but any times so obtained would not be eligible for your “normal” class.

1. Stock
Basically stock cars
- mags (maximum tyre width 245mm)
- air filter
- perhaps cat-back exhaust
- cosmetic body kits allowed

Carby cars can have engine conversions to alternative available in that model but the replacement engine must be to equivalent specs as above. Single carby only and stock/close to stock manifold (eg dual plane on V8).

2. Unopened
Minor/easy/bolt-on/reversible mods, stuff that doesn't require removal of engine/trans/diff. The idea being to run your car as you drive it every day. Only prep allowed being stuff that doesn't require tools eg tyre pressure not dropping exhaust.
- un-opened engines with bolt on mods (including trans) and full exhaust replacement allowed
- must have standard intake manifold but oversize throttle bodies allowed (perhaps allow intake manifold changes for pre-BA V8s)
- all body and interior parts must stay intact including headlights
- no removal of exhaust components (must run cats where required)
- no diff changes (perhaps allow changes to factory-available ratios in that model since complete diff swaps are not that hard/expensive)
- manual/auto conversions allowed to same type of transmission offered in that model car.
- must run "normal" street tyres not street legal slicks/drag radials (maximum tyre width 265-275mm)

Carby cars intake is free but restricted to 1 venturi per 2 cylinders, no roller cams, no stroker cranks, must stay under stock bonnet with air cleaner, diff ratio up to 3.5:1, stallies up to 2500 (open to input here). Max tyre size 295mm for XA-XC hardtops or similar cars. Exceptions allowed if factory fitted.

Maybe have an Unopened + tyres class for cars running drag radials/dot tyres/perhaps slicks?

3. Opened
More extensive mods but no "stripping" of the car.
- rear tyres must be street legal, must run stock-equivalent front wheels (or larger)
- engine mods free EXCEPT stroking
- trans free
- diff free
- no tubbing or body changes

Carby cars mechanical restrictions from previous class removed (stroking allowed) but no body mods or tubbing except roadworthy bonnet scoops. Maybe allow mini tubs and restrict tyre size?

Maybe have an Opened + tyres class for cars running drag radials/dot tyres/slicks?

4. Pro Street
- front and rear wheels/tyres free
- can remove body components but no modifications to body structure

5. Outlaw
- tubs, suspension mods allowed
- non-pump fuel allowed (either both classes or only Outlaw?)

As a comparison HERE are the LS1 Drag Nationals classes. As you can see they go into a lot more detail… Not to mention the controversy over unopened engines and valve springs - basically there are a couple of types of aftermarket valve springs allowed in an "unopened" engine, see the thread in the same section as the classes one.

Are there any comparable ANDRA classes we could look at for the more modified cars? I remember seeing one designed for LS1s, which was also going to cover BAs as well when they are more established on the drag scene.

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by Casper

No Alex, you stated quite clearly they were a hot air vent, something they are not while the car is in motion.
The context this whole thing is written in is "does a bonnet intake on a model car that had a factory intake fitted (and yes, regardless of if it was plumbed at the factory or not, the XB GT had intakes fitted to the bonnet) count as a body mod?" I put forward that my personal opinion is that it isnt based on the previous similar rule for diffs that states that the car can have something fitted to it that was factory for another car of the same model.
Now rather than debate this, you chose to say they were hot air vents... something no one else ... including probably every physics student and teacher in the world... agrees with.

So stick to the context which is:
"does an aftermarket bonnet intake on a model car that had a factory intake fitted count as a body mod?"

Sorry Casper there purpose is for dissipitating heat out of the engine bay period! stop trying to state what u think they are to make u feel better. : I won't respond to your next response as your insight on these cars is well not very good e

[Laminge]

i still think at this stage we have a simple times database which can be sorted upon request

Sorry, I havent chased it up any further but will have a look at it over the next week or so

[Casper]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

Sorry Casper there purpose is for dissipitating heat out of the engine bay period! stop trying to state what u think they are to make u feel better. : I won't respond to your next response as your insight on these cars is well not very good e

Alex, oyu dont have to respond, your the only person who actually thinks that they are heat vents. As Sourbastard said:

If you can find a way to make your hot air shoot out of a forward facing vent while air rushes past it in the opposite direction at 60kph id love to know how.

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by Laminge

i still think at this stage we have a simple times database which can be sorted upon request

Sorry, I havent chased it up any further but will have a look at it over the next week or so

Sounds like a good idea, you could have a field (or five) for listing mods as well as the times.

[PhantomXR8]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

2. Unopened
Minor/easy/bolt-on/reversible mods, stuff that doesn't require removal of engine/trans/diff. The idea being to run your car as you drive it every day. Only prep allowed being stuff that doesn't require tools eg tyre pressure not dropping exhaust.
- un-opened engines with bolt on mods (including trans) and full exhaust replacement allowed
- must have standard intake manifold but oversize throttle bodies allowed (perhaps allow intake manifold changes for pre-BA V8s)
- all body and interior parts must stay intact including headlights
- no removal of exhaust components (must run cats where required)
- no diff changes (perhaps allow changes to factory-available ratios in that model since complete diff swaps are not that hard/expensive)
- manual/auto conversions allowed to same type of transmission offered in that model car.
- must run "normal" street tyres not street legal slicks/drag radials (maximum tyre width 265-275mm)

I agree with the diff ratio changes in an unopened class. XR8 diffs are just toooo tall for serious drag racing. Selecting another factory ratio isn't really a major mod, pleeaassee!!!

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by Casper

Alex, oyu dont have to respond, your the only person who actually thinks that they are heat vents. As Sourbastard said:

I said i wasn't going to pursue this any-more but i am sure Casper owes someone an apology.LOL

[Casper]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

I said i wasn't going to pursue this any-more but i am sure Casper owes someone an apology.LOL

Alex, please post up what you PM'ed me, I will then post up what I PMed you. Then we can see what people think :

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by Casper

Alex, please post up what you PM'ed me, I will then post up what I PMed you. Then we can see what people think :

I don't have to CASPER the GT HISTORIAN has answered the question who do i believe u or him.lolWho is weird now.Oh the bonnet is at the front of the car. :monkes:

[Casper]

what ever Alex. If you simply refuse to accept that the scoops of the XB GT can, with minimal changes, be used to work as a fully functional cold air intake thats your issue.

We are not talking what came out of the factory, we are not talking racing cars, we are talking about a simple change that would allow them to act as CAI and, therefore, should probably allow other XA/XB/XC cars who dont have them to have a bonnet CAI with out it being classed as a body mod. Is that so hard to accept?

[Casper]

oh, and the "historian" answer you PM'ed me was in relation to the Cobra... which you failed to mention had a EXTRA bonnet bulge that would have been perfect for heat removal .... not just the scoops.

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by Casper

what ever Alex. If you simply refuse to accept that the scoops of the XB GT can, with minimal changes, be used to work as a fully functional cold air intake thats your issue.

We are not talking what came out of the factory, we are not talking racing cars, we are talking about a simple change that would allow them to act as CAI and, therefore, should probably allow other XA/XB/XC cars who dont have them to have a bonnet CAI with out it being classed as a body mod. Is that so hard to accept?

Yeah watever mate : but they are still a HEAT VENT if u wanna argue post it on the GT WEBSITE we will see what the response is.HEAT VENTS

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by Casper

oh, and the "historian" answer you PM'ed me was in relation to the Cobra... which you failed to mention had a EXTRA bonnet bulge that would have been perfect for heat removal .... not just the scoops.

Casper again mate : the XC and XB shared the same bonnet only pins were deleted.Both had the bonnet BULGE : Give it up mate your not doing yourself any favours.LOL

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by Laminge

i still think at this stage we have a simple times database which can be sorted upon request

Sorry, I havent chased it up any further but will have a look at it over the next week or so

simple is better, its the way to go..
-------------------------------------------------------
Guy's i think everyone had a fair say on the scoops, i like mine in a double cone..
feel free to start a scoop thread else where try the pub...
Enough now lets take it back to a disscussion on Drag Racing..

[Casper]

Alex, you have provided information that has shown me that, from the factory, they scoops were, in fact, not a functional CAI. I accept this as I know it is the case. I will also except your information that, from the factory, they are probably some form of engine cooling device while the car is in motion. No problems with that either, thats what I said in the first place. Of course, while stationary, they would also work as a heat vent, any hole would. So I accept what you have said. Now, back to the remainder of the topic.. I'll repeat: We are not talking what came out of the factory, we are not talking racing cars, we are talking about a simple change that would allow them to act as CAI and, therefore, should probably allow other XA/XB/XC cars who dont have them to have a bonnet CAI with out it being classed as a body mod.

Now, even you have accepted they can be used as a CAI... you even know the people that do the mods. So, back on topic, Is this considered a "body mod" or is it just giving those cars without the intake scoops parity?

Now, as for the other comment:

Originally Posted by FPVGT

Casper again mate the XC and XB shared the same bonnet only pins were deleted.Both had the bonnet BULGE Give it up mate your not doing yourself any favours.LOL

I have yet to see the XC Cobra bulge fitted to any other factory car. Heres some pics to explain.

Cobra with std bonnet (similar to XB GT)


Cobra with race homologation bulge (never fitted to XB or any other Falcon as stock)


Not sure what bulge your talking about Alex, we are probably referring to different things.


Now, we are not talking about the bulge, we are talking about the scoops and their potential to work as a CAI.
Now, to be fair, given the information Alex has sent me, I will again state that the scoops on a factory fitted XB GT serve a duel purpose, one of those being a heat vert when the car is stationary, the other to be an intake when the car is moving (although not a factory fitted CAI).
Alex, you even admited very early that they had this cooling/intake function:

Originally Posted by FPVGT

Sorry also forgot to mention these NASA scoops intention was soley to cool the engine down and whilst stationery they would allow heat to exit from the engine as we all know hot air rises :MrT_anim:

I checked back on my posts and, admittedly, some were worded badly at the start as I forgot to state "while the car is in motion" as I took that as a given. Most of the later posts stated that quite clearly though.
So this whole argument is basically pointless. They most certainly DO have an intake capability (as, to cool an engine they must draw in cool air), I accept and agree that, while stationary, they have a heat venting use... heat will rise and go out any hole it can.

Now if Alex would be so kind as to accept that they can also be used to act as a CAI with very little mods, we can all get on with our lives.

[SpoolMan]

Casper can we get on with this thread else were, gee if no can agree whats the point here...

[Casper]

Sorry Mark but this is specific to this thread. The original statement was made:

Originally Posted by brenx

The only downfall I can see here is in "outlaw street". Naturally aspirated cars with bonnet scoops will have to run with cars that have power adders.

For example myself. I have no power adders but have body mods for CAI.

[edit] Actually there is an error in modified street? Does it
allow body mods or not? If it doesn't my comment still stands.

Brenden

in relation to the Performance Street catagory.

I then said:

Originally Posted by Casper

I'd be inclined to say bonnets scoops shouldnt be counted as a body mod. Many cars such as the XB GT had them as std.

At this point Alex claimed that the scoops on an XB GT were only for heat removal. It all stemmed from there but is all relevant to this topic.

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by Casper

Alex, you have provided information that has shown me that, from the factory, they scoops were, in fact, not a functional CAI. I accept this as I know it is the case. I will also except your information that, from the factory, they are probably some form of engine cooling device while the car is in motion. No problems with that either, thats what I said in the first place. Of course, while stationary, they would also work as a heat vent, any hole would. So I accept what you have said. Now, back to the remainder of the topic.. I'll repeat: We are not talking what came out of the factory, we are not talking racing cars, we are talking about a simple change that would allow them to act as CAI and, therefore, should probably allow other XA/XB/XC cars who dont have them to have a bonnet CAI with out it being classed as a body mod.

Now, even you have accepted they can be used as a CAI... you even know the people that do the mods. So, back on topic, Is this considered a "body mod" or is it just giving those cars without the intake scoops parity?

Now, as for the other comment:

I have yet to see the XC Cobra bulge fitted to any other factory car. Heres some pics to explain.

Cobra with std bonnet (similar to XB GT)


Cobra with race homologation bulge (never fitted to XB or any other Falcon as stock)


Not sure what bulge your talking about Alex, we are probably referring to different things.


Now, we are not talking about the bulge, we are talking about the scoops and their potential to work as a CAI.
Now, to be fair, given the information Alex has sent me, I will again state that the scoops on a factory fitted XB GT serve a duel purpose, one of those being a heat vert when the car is stationary, the other to be an intake when the car is moving (although not a factory fitted CAI).
Alex, you even admited very early that they had this cooling/intake function:

I checked back on my posts and, admittedly, some were worded badly at the start as I forgot to state "while the car is in motion" as I took that as a given. Most of the later posts stated that quite clearly though.
So this whole argument is basically pointless. They most certainly DO have an intake capability (as, to cool an engine they must draw in cool air), I accept and agree that, while stationary, they have a heat venting use... heat will rise and go out any hole it can.

Now if Alex would be so kind as to accept that they can also be used to act as a CAI with very little mods, we can all get on with our lives.

Casper the XB GT bonnet was classified as a POWER BULGE. Neverless whatever u think mate and i know the difference in the scoop on the Bathurst COBRAS.I wasn't refering to CAI either mate u and a few stated and denied what was said above.I just hope maybe picking up a book on a few facts than assuming things would go a little further in some recognition on a topic.

[SpoolMan]

Casper its not going anywhere, everyone well just have to swallow what they think is right.
The whole thing won’t get anywhere the way its going, if we go on about simple bonnet scoop, what’s going to happen when the classes are put down on paper.