The Death of QANTAS

[jpd80]

The Unions have every right to use every trick in the book
QANTAS have every right to respond with every trick in the book

Australian travelers have every right to choose any carrier they want...

Who are the real winners and losers in all of this?

[cupic]

The real culprit is management.Always looking for ways to squeeze the margins by keeping wages down ,profits up and of course exec pay rises on the up and up.This is one business where others are watching and waiting to see how far and how much they can get away with . I'm not saying the unions are angels but to survive you have to shake the trees

cheers

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by egoxr6

I believe Qantas turned 300m odd profit last FY. Hang on, that was the 'international' arm of the business. So, the domestic arm paying Australian workers must now compete with other, um, skilled workers overseas. Don't worry though, as long as you're a shareholder, it will be sweet. You won't have a job anymore but ride them shares baby.

Incorrect.

Jetstar and Qantas domestic operations made a profit, Qantas International operations lost something like 300 Million last financial year. Overall, Qantas made a profit due to the strength of Jetstar and its domestic operations.

Originally Posted by jpd80

Who are the real winners and losers in all of this?

There arent any winners in this situation.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by FgNewbie

At this rate Qantas will be in good company.... TAA, Australian Airlines, Ansett.

TAA rebranded to Australian which merged into Qantas. They didn't go bankrupt.

[ebxr8240]

The books may have been cooked too...

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by cs123

TAA rebranded to Australian which merged into Qantas. They didn't go bankrupt.

You bet me to it, and it wasn’t the unions that sent Ansett to the wall, it was the knuckleheads at the top.

[FgNewbie]

Not that it's important, I was only thinking the companies no longer exist. I wasn't even thinking about bankruptcy. I do remember the heartache the Ansett mess caused though and hope the current outcome will be better (regardless of who gets blamed for the issues).

[old_mate]

Qantas is cooking the Jetstar books

Jetstar don't pay hangar fees when a bird breaks, they don't pay for ground equipment, their Aircraft had been traditionally bought and/or leased by Qantas mainline, even the new Asian businesses have had their aircraft bought by Mainline.

They want to definately ramp up Jetstar operations due to the lower cost base. I don't think they would ever run the Flying Rat into the ground per se but I have paid attention to the CEO stating if union action continues they could strip 50% of the Qantas business.

I suggest that 50% is, in fact the target reduction of Qantas operations period.

If the airline offered a 3% payrise and accepted a job security clause (which basically stipulates only X amount of maintenance overseas and X amount of foreign flight crews can operate Qantas routes) this would all be done and dusted. The unions aren't pushing for everything to come back onshore, 'overflow' maintenance has been done in Asia for many years. They just don't want to see more of it done overseas. The fact is, the asian overhaul facilities do not have time during a check to carry out major rectification work. The planes are scheduled in and they must depart when due otherwise the next plane could be time expired due maintenance and that would then upset that airline. It was not uncommon for a aircraft to leave Asia from heavy maintenance, land in Australia where it would sit for a few days and have another minor maintenance check done by Australian engineers clearing any defects that weren't attended to in Asia OR anything that they actually didnt attend to properly, where as when I was in Sydney Heavy Maintenance that aircraft would leave the hangar when it was completely airworthy, no tech log hold items current and not a day beforehand.

The pilots use the Qantas trans tasman deal to highlight their point. A punter buys a Qantas ticket, from Qantas, at a Qantas price, you board a aircraft in Qantas colours, with crew in Qantas uniforms, yet the rego starts with ZK- and is a company based in NZ with a crew who get paid less than a Qantas crew and have had to spend less time training to get to where they are than your regular Qantas pilot. Now I have nothing against a new zealand based subsidary company operating but I would expect to have to book my airfare via that company, it's kind of like being sold an FPV that upon delivery never left the standard Ford production line.

[FGII-XR6]

Ansett was causes by Air New Zealand buying it then asset striping it they then collapsed the company and walked away

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

Ansett was causes by Air New Zealand buying it then asset striping it they then collapsed the company and walked away

Smaller airline buys bigger airline, can't afford to fix its problems and goes bankrupt itself.

AirNZ is only still around because the NZ Government bought it to stop it going bankrupt.

[Ben73]

Reckon they will refund my tickets so I can go to another airline?
Im not flying till the start of next year.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by troystanton78

just a couple,
job security guaranteed
no outsourcing to overseas
767 short haul pilots want a rise to that of a long haul A380 pilot (approx 30thou p/a)
just those 3 are unsustainable

Points 1 & 2 are basicly the same...

Point 3 you may want to look into, it's not quite right, a bit more to it than that...

[GoesLikeAZetec]

We are stuck in hobart at the end of holidays and ended up getting virginblue flights at our cost (for now) at $750 one way just to be sure we'd be home in time for work again. Sigh.

I hope we get our flight money back at least. I dont care who's at fault, Im ****ed at both parties for not getting their **** together.

I feel for the people missing weddings, funerals etc where they couldnt get onto another flight.

Anyway life goes on.

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by cs123

TAA rebranded to Australian which merged into Qantas. They didn't go bankrupt.

I was going to post that earlier, but as I was typing it got distracted and then couldn't be bothered lol.

[nuthin' fancy]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

I'm flying with Qantas in December to visit my mum for her 60th birthday way up North. I hope they get this resolved soon.

I'll bet you're not.

There is something evil at play here. I understand that an airline operating without government subsidy operates in a difficult market and I believe all I have heard about the losses involved in international operations but for the management to close operations without notice just wrecks the brand.

To do so the day after the annual general meeting makes it worse.

What was wrong with announcing no flights from 5pm Monday? Let people get home or make alternate arrangments before the disruption. This way the brand maintains some credibility.

So long to the flying kangaroo.

[Scott]

As a "mile ready" Platinum Member (ie, I have to take the cheap seats), I can speak with some experience that Qantas has and is being run into the ground with respect to air travel as WE know it. And air travel as we know it is much, much better than most of the world knows is, largely thanks to the monopoly that has been Qantas.

Personal opinion is that I hate Qantas.... with a passion. But I only fly Qantas.

Originally Posted by JC

no way is someone worth $5M per year as a hired employee. A guy who does it from scratch is different, but then he would be using that kind of money to expand his business.

Rubbish. Not saying Joyce is the best but in a broader sense, if you bring the bucks you can get your share - no probs at all.

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i just cant wait till the miners start shutting down the mines.

Watch this space.

Originally Posted by Big Bird 17

Now i can only use a coalmine analogy,it is a fact that the safest mines are those with a strong union workforce.

I disagree. The strongest miners have the unions frigged.... for now.

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Also don't be surprised if more support comes from other unions....

Also don't be surprised if Qantas have the support of some very deep pockets that want to set a precedent.

Qantas will win this war, the unions don't have the support to take on the stakeholders in a fight like this.

Major companies within Australia know things are out of whack and that they need to be redressed. If it gets further out of control, you can kiss goodbye to the good times in the boom sectors.

[pottery beige]

last mine i was working at the unions were playing tough guy with EBA negotions...

dragging on and on.. in the end the company agreed...

thought they were great.. absolute champs!!!

matter of months latter the company informs they are 'divesting' that division in preparation FOR SALE....

say hi to your new Chinese owners chumps!!!..

[brydie76]

Originally Posted by old_mate

Qantas is cooking the Jetstar books

Jetstar don't pay hangar fees when a bird breaks, they don't pay for ground equipment, their Aircraft had been traditionally bought and/or leased by Qantas mainline, even the new Asian businesses have had their aircraft bought by Mainline.

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

The books may have been cooked too...

Do you guys want to substantiate this?

Not wanting to be argumentative/condescending, but as an auditor I find it pretty offensive when this claim gets trotted out every time something like this goes along. QANTAS is audited by KPMG, one of the Big 4. Audits are pretty damn stringent, and the burnout rate for new auditors is pretty damn high, it isn't an easy job to do!

By the way, old_mate, do you have any sort of evidence for your allegations quoted above? I won't go to an audit standard, but something more than a daily hack "uncovering a scandal" article would be nice. Not putting you out to dry or anything, just genuinely curious. It could simply be too that instead of a financial transaction for services, there could be a services for services agreement- eg QANTAS gets to use Jetstar's gates at certain airports, QANTAS can put their passengers on Jetstar planes as a codeshare (common out of NTL) at no cost to them (QANTAS) etc. Those sorts of agreements would be a lot more efficient for the company IMO- related party financial transactions are messy to account for and clean up in consolidation, haha!

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by troystanton78

767 short haul pilots want a rise to that of a long haul A380 pilot (approx 30thou p/a)

What, so they want the same amount of money as someone who is in control of a MUCH bigger vessel that carries MORE passengers which comes with MORE responsibility?

Unions are ruining this country, and so are the lazy workforce behind it who want more cash for less work.

I'm firmly in Joyce's corner. I've gotta deal the hand I was dealt, the rest of you mob can do the same.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

What, so they want the same amount of money as someone who is in control of a MUCH bigger vessel that carries MORE passengers which comes with MORE responsibility?

Don't forget that the A-380 pilots don't get to go home and sleep in their own beds every night as well.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

What, so they want the same amount of money as someone who is in control of a MUCH bigger vessel that carries MORE passengers which comes with MORE responsibility?

Unions are ruining this country, and so are the lazy workforce behind it who want more cash for less work.

I'm firmly in Joyce's corner. I've gotta deal the hand I was dealt, the rest of you mob can do the same.

Here bloody here
I don't get involved in this stuff very often, suck it up and move on.

[mondo_broady]

don't kid yourself this is not part of the grand plan.

joyce is a hired gun tasked with shifting QANTAS operations offshore. this "battle" is just part of the justification process of stealing away an Australian icon...

[cs123]

Originally Posted by brydie76

Do you guys want to substantiate this?

I have also heard these claims. There is this article on Crikey that talks to some of it.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...have-answered/

[pottery beige]

i come close to sending them broke every time i suck **** in the QANTAS lounge......

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by cs123

I have also heard these claims. There is this article on Crikey that talks to some of it.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...nswered/<br />

Dead link, and I wouldn't take anything on a blog as gospel.

[mondo_broady]

not dead, search QANTAS and a LOT of information comes up...

[cs123]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Dead link, and I wouldn't take anything on a blog as gospel.

I'm not asking you to believe what is written in the article. If you're an auditor and those claims surprise you then do some research.

I think you'll also find that the pilot pay claims posted here are wrong too. I think this is more accurate regarding classifications. Which makes a little more sense.

The pilots are also demanding a reclassification of what each grade of pilot is paid. This could see a Boeing 767 pilot move to the 10-percent-higher A330 rate and a Boeing 747 pilot move up 5 percent to the A380 pay rate.

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by F6E

Close it down, wrap it up and reopen overseas where people are more appreciative of the oportunity of employment.

A job is not a birth rite.

And if it were your job they closed it down and sent it overseas and you were forced into unemployment, you would ok with that?

[brydie76]

Originally Posted by cs123

I'm not asking you to believe what is written in the article.If you're an auditor and those claims surprise you then do some research.

I think you'll also find that the pilot pay claims posted here are wrong too. I think this is more accurate regarding classifications. Which makes a little more sense.

Unfairly harsh. I know about the companies I audit well, and some other to some extent. Others I am just like a regular consumer in regards to knowledge. Besides, I'd argue knowing the accounting Standards would be more important.

But that's straying off-topic. Today should be interesting at the FW hearing. Read on Twitter from one of the big news companies that the tribunal may request documentation (sent to a catering company) that could show Qantas' actions were pre-meditated. That could throw a few issues up for QANTAS in regards to getting on the tribunal's side.

[Jim Goose]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-2...actbox/3608330

What is the Qantas dispute all about?

Here are some facts about the stand-off:

Industrial action by three unions, representing engineers, baggage and catering staff and long-haul pilots, has been ongoing for several months over pay and conditions.

Qantas says that the strike action had until Saturday resulted in 70,000 passengers being affected, more than 600 flights cancelled and seven aircraft grounded.

The fleet grounding will impact 108 planes at 22 airports, domestically and internationally.

The dispute has cost the airline about $70 million in damages so far, with costs mounting at $15 million each week. Grounding the entire fleet will cost $20 million a day.

In July Qantas pilots on international routes began their first industrial action in 45 years with unauthorised in-flight announcements telling passengers about their dispute. Rolling strikes by engineers also began delaying thousands of passengers.

In August Qantas announced a restructure which will see 1,000 jobs slashed as part of a new emphasis on Asia, a move met with a firestorm of criticism from unions.

Later that month Qantas announced it had more than doubled its full-year net profit to $250 million but warned of challenging times ahead as it revamps its loss-making international arm.

In October Prime Minister Julia Gillard urged unions and Qantas to sort out their differences.
The airline flies to 208 destinations in 46 countries, operating more than 5,700 flights a week across all its brands domestically and more than 970 international flights. It moved 44.5 million passengers in the year ended June 2011.