Future of Ford and Holden Could be Revealed in Detroit this week

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Caprice PPV was suggested nearly four years ago but nixed duel to projected lack of profit and interest....

Nup still going ahead, whether it will be sucessful or not is another thing. Here is the latest on the Caprice PPV with the new Series2 interior including touch screen. They have now moved the trans shifter now right to the edge so they can fit the computers in.

[Chilliman]

I for one welcome our new all-wheel-drive overlords

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

Future of Ford manufacturing in Australia looking extremely grim and terminal if you go by this article. What do you guys intepret from this?

Just because it goes FWD, dosnt mean that local production will stop. There is hundreds of millions in investment here. And the next model might have a lot of export potential.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Nikked

How is it that the Mustang moved from the Fox platform that was shared with other sedans and coupes, to a stand alone platform?

What of the 4 door mustang? Shouldn't this mean a GRWD platform is still needed?

Mustang was the last car standing on Fox, all the rest became FWD vehicles.
When S197 mustang was being developed, the team considered Falcon, DEW and own design.
there was so much tear up and redo due to Mustang shape, rear seat between the wheels and suspension
that a unique design was felt to offer the best balance of factors including size, weight and price.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Brazen

GM has confirmed Commodore will be RWD at least into the 2020s.

Where did this happen?? Please show me..

I think GM have been saying the same things as Ford "we have NOT made a final decision yet, it is due to be made with in 6 months". But Holden have said RWD is likely, when Ford has said FWD is likely. NOTHING has been confirmed!!

[5.0GT]

Originally Posted by Brazen

GM has confirmed Commodore will be RWD at least into the 2020s.

The only rear-drive commitment Toby Hagon received in Detroit was in the spa of his hotel suite.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Where did this happen?? Please show me..

I think GM have been saying the same things as Ford "we have NOT made a final decision yet, it is due to be made with in 6 months". But Holden have said RWD is likely, when Ford has said FWD is likely. NOTHING has been confirmed!!

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2011...d-falcon-23167

...Less than 24 hours earlier, the boss of Holden Mike Devereux repeated Holden's intentions for the Commodore to continue as a rear-drive sedan beyond 2020.

When a small group of Australian journalists asked Ford's global design chief, J Mays if the next Falcon would be rear-drive, he said: "Don't hold your breath."

Minutes later, unaware of Mays' comments, another group of Australian journalists asked the global boss of Ford, Alan Mulally, if there was any update on the plans for the 2017 replacement for the Falcon -- given Holden's announcement about taking its rear-drive formula beyond 2020.

Not an official announcment, but basic confirmation that it will be RWD.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Brazen

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2011...d-falcon-23167



Not an official announcment, but basic confirmation that it will be RWD.

That is, in no way shape or form a comfirmation.. To start with, there are no "quotes" so it is just a comment writing in an article by a jurno..!!

This is what the Holden (Mike) boss has said (And I quote)

“And we will do everything we can to make sure we design ‘a Commodore’ that is right for Australia.

“The first rule for us is, no matter what we do long term (seven, eight or nine years from now), we have to make sure that the Commodore is a Commodore. And what that means is that, in about a year from now, our team has to figure that out.

“And it sucks that you have to make such a long call so far in advanced on what that architecture will be. And in the next 12 months we will have to make that sort of call.”
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257814001CCBBF

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

That is, in no way shape or form a comfirmation.. To start with, there are no "quotes" so it is just a comment writing in an article by a jurno..!!

Another article, ruling out FWD for Commodore.

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2011...e-future-23166

While the speculation over the future of the Ford Falcon continues -- whether it will be made locally, imported or replaced by the front-drive Ford Taurus -- Holden says it is poised to not mess with the Commodore formula.

"We will know in the next six months what the future of the Commodore -- the next generation -- will look like," said Devereux, who admitted for the first time that front-drive was on the consideration list, but quickly ruled out.

"We looked at everything, that's what all car makers do, that's the prudent thing to do," he said. "But we are under no obligation to go that way, Holden can choose its own path."

He said in his seven months in the top job in Australia, he quickly grasped that Australia is a unique market.

"The rear-drive sedan may not be flavour of the month in other countries, but it is still very much alive in Australia," he said. "If we can deliver the right [size] and the right economy, we can continue on the path we're on."

He said the deadline was set seven years out because that's how much lead time is needed to reconfigure the Holden factory in Adelaide and design new tooling if there were to be a radical change to the Commodore's layout.

"If we go with a complete new architecture (the core structure of a car) then we need to plan well ahead of time," he said. "If we decide to continue with what we have, that's fine, but we need to be sure that's the right decision because we can't go back in time and change it."

Devereux admitted that Holden had evaluated a new General Motors front-drive platform that currently underpins Toyota Camry competitors in Europe and North America -- as well as one that underpins the Chevrolet Impala -- but they have all-but been ruled out.

"It was an option, and still is an option if we really wanted it, but frankly that would not be a Commodore, it would not have Commodore DNA," he said.

A switch to front-drive would automatically wipe a quarter of the Commodore's sales tally -- that's roughly how many V8 rear drive luxury or sports sedans make up its overall volume.

..The Carsales Network understands the most likely scenario is that, beyond 2017 -- when the next generation Commodore is due -- Holden will continue with a modified version of its existing Commodore architecture, but will develop an all-new body and engines.

This happens to be the easiest and cheapest of all the options under consideration.

But who knows whats going to happen in the future with either car. But its obvious Holden and Ford are making very different noises about the future of their large cars

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Nup still going ahead, whether it will be sucessful or not is another thing. Here is the latest on the Caprice PPV with the new Series2 interior including touch screen. They have now moved the trans shifter now right to the edge so they can fit the computers in.

It was suggested as a business case before G8 but then shelved before being revived last year.
That's what I was saying...and still going ahead provided sufficient sales materialise.

Word is Ford is offering up to $8,000 discount on Crown Victoria police interceptor....
That came from officers posting on US forums, CVPI can be had for around US$21,000
on state procurement pricing plans...

[FPV]

Well on other forums, the usual trusted posters are saying that there may be a AWD/FWD vehicle (Taurus size) and a Mustang based vehicle (potentially a sedan and maybe the Mustang itself).

Question is, which size classes do these vehicles fall into? I would hope the Mustang-based vehicle turns out to be the Falcon and stays in the current size class, and the AWD/FWD vehicle fills the Fairlane placement.

I guess it does get repetitive if our forum's sources have to keep repeating themselves everytime a new falcon-killer article is released.

[Windsor220]

There wont be a Fairlane replacement. There is no market for it. People are already complaining Falcon is too big.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It was suggested as a business case before G8 but then shelved before being revived last year.
That's what I was saying...and still going ahead provided sufficient sales materialise.

Word is Ford is offering up to $8,000 discount on Crown Victoria police interceptor....
That came from officers posting on US forums, CVPI can be had for around US$21,000
on state procurement pricing plans...

There is no way the Caprice could compete on price, luckily for GM the Crown is going out of production, with a sizeable delay until the Taurus. In the meantime the police need something, so really its just a fluke there is this opportunity to put their foot in the door.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FPV

Well on other forums, the usual trusted posters are saying that there may be a AWD/FWD vehicle (Taurus size) and a Mustang based vehicle (potentially a sedan and maybe the Mustang itself).

Question is, which size classes do these vehicles fall into? I would hope the Mustang-based vehicle turns out to be the Falcon and stays in the current size class, and the AWD/FWD vehicle fills the Fairlane placement.

I guess it does get repetitive if our forum's sources have to keep repeating themselves everytime a new falcon-killer article is released.

Exactly.
We still have another 5 to 6 years of RWD Falcon to enjoy, more than
enough time for Ford to evolve in any direction they chose.

An AWD sedan is not high on the priority list of Australian Large car buyers
and those that do have that particular need invariably buy an SUV.

Everyone seems to be comparing the cars of today as justification as to why a platform of the future
either will or wont be a success without regard as to who is buying which cars and for what reason.
Without doing that proper market research, a company like Ford risks pandering to fans who have no
intention of buying a new Falcon but have a holy mission to prevent any change to their favorite car.

It is only right that Ford asks the tough questions now so that they can go to their chiefs with
a water tight business case for whatever vehicle they chose for the next product cycle.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Brazen

There is no way the Caprice could compete on price, luckily for GM the Crown is going out of production, with a sizeable delay until the Taurus. In the meantime the police need something, so really its just a fluke there is this opportunity to put their foot in the door.

I thought Vic was still in production for most of this year??

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I thought Vic was still in production for most of this year??

Hmmm not sure, for some reason I thought there was a 12 month gap between Crown to Taurus. If I was Ford I would run the Crown right up to the day the Taurus is released... Actually if I was Ford I would have the Falcon ripping up American highways... but thats another topic altogether.

[jpd80]

Crown Victoria will be available until October. New Ford PI will be priced aggressively against V6 Charger
(which is currently $18,000) AWD is expected to be $2,000 option and Ecoboost a further $2,000.

The two dearest car on offer ATM are the V8 Hemi Charger and the V8 Caprice PPV.

The great advantage for Ford is offering V6 FWd, V6 AWD , Ecoboost and PI Utility to Police Departments,
such a huge variety of vehicles that cover most policing needs all having very similar handling traits.
That is very attractive to police, especially when all of those vehicles share so many parts....

[janddbone]

The last Lincoln Continental, based on the Taurus we got here in Aus, had the modular V8 in it...

[csv8]

Originally Posted by Wretched

What do residents in Europe, especially in the UK use to tow a trailer/caravan?

The big difference is caravan weight.average European caravan is around 1600kgs, Ours 2000kgs+. Look at the Adria 21' caravan, weighs 1600kg. Here, you are lucky to get a 21' under 2000kgs!!!
The Adria has proven it can take our roads, Adria took one to Birdsville and it didn't fall apart.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Crown Victoria will be available until October.

I believe that the Town Car continues to be available after that as a fleet purchase, I would think Ford will Continue with a Panther based PPV until the Taurus one gains some acceptance, or the order volumes make it no longer viable.

They are in business for money, and will not turntheir back on that market quickly - even temporarily.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

I believe that the Town Car continues to be available after that as a fleet purchase, I would think Ford will Continue with a Panther based PPV until the Taurus one gains some acceptance, or the order volumes make it no longer viable.

They are in business for money, and will not turntheir back on that market quickly - even temporarily.

No, Saint Thomas production ends completely in October.
Town car is being replaced by MKT and special livery versions are being readied for October.


Logic behind axing panthers:
Elimination of Saint Thomas Assembly Plant = reduction in production capacity and personnel,
any future sales to Police departments is taken up by new PI and PI Ute built at Chicago Assembly Plant.

[BHDOGS]

awd falcon i can live with fwd i cant

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

awd falcon i can live with fwd i cant

why not? please explain. it seems so many people jump on the band wagon of hating fwd, but there is no reason to. there are so many good fwd cars out there today. some of the european ones, you cant tell its fwd, unless you try to do a burnout. maybe thats what it is about falcon lovers, they want to keep rwd because they want to do burnouts and donuts because they are bogans. awd is perfectly fine for normally commuting road cars, just look at how good a toyota aurion is.
Heck, i wonder if people would buy a fwd falcon it if road tests and magazine reviews claimed it to be a better drive then the rwd falcon? would you still be stuborn?

Ive driven rwd falcons for 8 years, but im not going to hold onto an ancient stereotype. If Ford builds a FWD, good on them, maybe they might even sell more cars then Holden for a change.

[jpd80]

What you have is a strong partisan crowd of supporters that refuse to accept the Falcon as anything
other than what it has been, a RWD I-6/V8 large sedan. Any attempt by others to suggest any change
to that formula is met with immediate skepticism and ridicule as unworkable or unprofitable. Any mention
of a co developed vehicle or shared platform is also met with concern and immediately branded as fail.

But you want to know the darndest thing?
The majority of people with the above view have little or no intention of actually buying a new
Falcon anytime soon. Ford needs to stop playing to the peanut gallery and start building cars that
appeal to more people that buy other brands. A lot of potential Falcon buyers surveyed by Ford
are open to the car being either RWD or FWD/AWD so Ford needs to hear that message and take
the time to process what type of vehicle actually covers all of the buyers needs.

So long as Ford does proper market research and its future products cover as many buyers as possible,
I think they will do quite well with the next product cycle, no matter which wheels do the driving...

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by jpd80

So long as Ford does proper market research and its future products cover as many buyers as possible,
I think they will do quite well with the next product cycle, no matter which wheels do the driving...

I think that accurate market research would find Ford's major failing is not the vehicles themselves, it's the poor dealer network and aftersales support.

If they want to build a FWD large car then call it something else and let the Falcon name die with dignity (one reason why the GTOised Monaro failed in the USA; wrong style of vehicle of a historically significant name)

[FPV8U]

"If" Ford Aus do go FWD Taurus based sedan with AWD TT Ecoboost Performance models while disapointed to lose the RWD Falcon for obvious reasons it will bring new and exciting models.

I just hope pricing reflects that of the US if we are getting basically the same cars.

[SVR73]

J Mays couldn't design a good looking car to save his life
I'll stick with my AU XR thank you very much.

there is no way I'd buy a fwd falcon. AWD is fine but I feel that we've seen the best car designs for the general public's cars

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by SVR73

J Mays couldn't design a good looking car to save his life
I'll stick with my AU XR thank you very much.

Yeah ok he can't design a car . Can you?

Here are some of the huge number of cars he has had direct involvement with in terms of design.

With BMW (80s) - 5 series and 8 series
Audi - Audi 80, Audi 100, A6 Volkswagen Golf and Volkswagen Polo.
Also the Audi Avus quattro concept car

Within the Ford Family - Ford Fairlane, Shelby GR-1 and "427", Jaguar F-Type and Volvo Safety Car Concepts

and Production cars - Aston Martin DB9, Land Rover LR3/Discovery, Ford GT and Ford Shelby Cobra GT500.

Not to mention he over saw the design of the BA Falcon.

"...While at Ford, Mays has received several professional awards and recognition for his designs. In November 2002, Mays' designs were the subject of an exhibition, "Retrofuturism: The Car Design of J Mays" at the Geffen Contemporary of the Museum of Contemporary Art in Los Angeles. He also received the Harvard Design School annual Excellence in Design Award in February 2002, and in September 2002, the Don Kubly Professional Attainment Award from the Art Center College of Design..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_Mays

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Nup still going ahead, whether it will be sucessful or not is another thing. Here is the latest on the Caprice PPV with the new Series2 interior including touch screen. They have now moved the trans shifter now right to the edge so they can fit the computers in.

Quoting my own post, but just realised the power window switches are on the door and it has a foot handbrake. Probably a lot better to use than the current centre console set-up

Didnt J Mays design the original Audi A6? which seemed to be a big influence on the BA rear.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

What you have is a strong partisan crowd of supporters that refuse to accept the Falcon as anything
other than what it has been, a RWD I-6/V8 large sedan. Any attempt by others to suggest any change
to that formula is met with immediate skepticism and ridicule as unworkable or unprofitable. Any mention
of a co developed vehicle or shared platform is also met with concern and immediately branded as fail.

But you want to know the darndest thing?
The majority of people with the above view have little or no intention of actually buying a new
Falcon anytime soon. Ford needs to stop playing to the peanut gallery and start building cars that
appeal to more people that buy other brands. A lot of potential Falcon buyers surveyed by Ford
are open to the car being either RWD or FWD/AWD so Ford needs to hear that message and take
the time to process what type of vehicle actually covers all of the buyers needs.

So long as Ford does proper market research and its future products cover as many buyers as possible,
I think they will do quite well with the next product cycle, no matter which wheels do the driving...

As much as I want my inner RWD nerd rage run riot, I have got to agree with you on this one.