Should road cars be speed limited?

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Fair call. I see the same thing all the time, as do many others here I am sure.
Here is a question for you. What if the nearest park ( read track) to take your intact Staffy ( read performance car) was 100klm, or 1000klm away? Would you still own a dog? As an animal lover I am sure you would. Just that you would have to let him have his fun a little more discreetly!

While car entuisiasts should keep this kind of thing off the roads, there are parts of Aus where tracks to unleash the beast simply don't exist. Qld with its vast distances is a pretty good example of this. Want to run your performance car/sportsbike around a track? Great in Brissy or the Sunny/Gold coasts. Kinda hard in Cairns, Townsville, Mackay though, as you are at 12-20 hours drive from a track where track days are held.

Now look at Vic and it is the opposite. This state is literally littered with tracks in close proximity. Live in Melbourne and you have access to 4 or 5 within a 200klm radiu.s 99% of the population probably lives within 3 hours of a track, so there really is no excuse to let out some steam in the right place, providing that access is available via a track day company, etc. All that needs to be done here is ensure that the penalties for anti social behaviour are strict enough to encourage everyone to go to a track day instead.

Part of the solution ( one of many that need to be implemented) may just be to providing more parks for you to walk your dog in and let him have a little freedom. Its only a small part of the solution, but one that should be considered. After all, we build skate parks in every town to keep kids amused so that they don't indulge in anti social behaviour. What are we doing for the revheads as a society?

We(as dog owners)have "lobbied" damn hard to get dog parks. There are now 4 within my general area. The council do have this sort of community initiative on their agenda, but sometimes it takes a bit of concerted push from interested parties to actually advance that agenda to fruition.
I also drive over 150 kms regularly(read every couple of weeks) to the leash free beaches of Byron Bay et al, to let him (said dog)unleash a whole mess of energy in the surf. Again, if he carried on in public the same way he does in the park or at the beach, I would have to rethink my reason for having such a high perform....whoops, high energy dog.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Fair call. I see the same thing all the time, as do many others here I am sure.
Here is a question for you. What if the nearest park ( read track) to take your intact Staffy ( read performance car) was 100klm, or 1000klm away? Would you still own a dog? As an animal lover I am sure you would. Just that you would have to let him have his fun a little more discreetly!

While car entuisiasts should keep this kind of thing off the roads, there are parts of Aus where tracks to unleash the beast simply don't exist. Qld with its vast distances is a pretty good example of this. Want to run your performance car/sportsbike around a track? Great in Brissy or the Sunny/Gold coasts. Kinda hard in Cairns, Townsville, Mackay though, as you are at 12-20 hours drive from a track where track days are held.

Now look at Vic and it is the opposite. This state is literally littered with tracks in close proximity. Live in Melbourne and you have access to 4 or 5 within a 200klm radiu.s 99% of the population probably lives within 3 hours of a track, so there really is no excuse to let out some steam in the right place, providing that access is available via a track day company, etc. All that needs to be done here is ensure that the penalties for anti social behaviour are strict enough to encourage everyone to go to a track day instead.

Part of the solution ( one of many that need to be implemented) may just be to providing more parks for you to walk your dog in and let him have a little freedom. Its only a small part of the solution, but one that should be considered. After all, we build skate parks in every town to keep kids amused so that they don't indulge in anti social behaviour. What are we doing for the revheads as a society?

Funny how 99% of these incidents of insane speed on public streets "seeing what the car will do" occur within an hours drive of race tracks.

[wrongwaynorris]

Stupid stupid stupid , if this gets up just watch the road toll go through the roof . Given that 90% of people when being passed accelerate this will ensure many many many more head on accidents and consequently deaths .

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

Stupid stupid stupid , if this gets up just watch the road toll go through the roof . Given that 90% of people when being passed accelerate this will ensure many many many more head on accidents and consequently deaths .

Worryingly that point actually has some merit.

[dylancox]

Originally Posted by GT Falcon

It was in the NT with the (//) speed limits, but since the introduction of 110km/h speed limits those same roads are now unsafe? How does that work? With the ever increasing improved safety features of new cars those roads become safer to travel on.

Yes I certainly advocate speeds in excess of 160km/h on certain public roads. Drive in the outback and you'll discover what I mean.

Why cant all the money being put into a National Broadband Network be put into a National High Speed Road Network.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by dylancox

Why cant all the money being put into a National Broadband Network be put into a National High Speed Road Network.

Because your car won't fit in the optic fibre trench....duh.....

[smee323]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

Stupid stupid stupid , if this gets up just watch the road toll go through the roof . Given that 90% of people when being passed accelerate this will ensure many many many more head on accidents and consequently deaths .

True. I recently got a fine for doing 125 trying to overtake a caravan I had sat behind for 10k doing 90 in a 110 zone (country) waiting for an overtaking zone.

Too late to do the maths, but someone needs to post up how long and how fa it would take a car to pass another.
Car 1 doing 90 and car 2 doing 100
Car 1 doing 90 and car 2 doing 125

Then see if you like speed limiting.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by smee323

True. I recently got a fine for doing 125 trying to overtake a caravan I had sat behind for 10k doing 90 in a 110 zone (country) waiting for an overtaking zone.

Too late to do the maths, but someone needs to post up how long and how fa it would take a car to pass another.
Car 1 doing 90 and car 2 doing 100
Car 1 doing 90 and car 2 doing 125

Then see if you like speed limiting.

ever driven a semi? they're speed limited and have to put up with the slow guys all day everyday.

i'm not advocating speed limiters but some arguments against are a bit like clutching at straws.

[302 XC]

Getting a speeding ticket regardless of the incident
ITS a speeding ticket
Would i be right ?

Power u need at 90/100 Kmh to overtake,well what sorta car we talking
Distance to overtake again depends on the power you have at 90/100 Ks
Im in a 6.5t truck (8M length)doin 100Ks up a hill,and a weee little hyundai tried to overtake me
Got to my door,hes outta puff
Im still powering up the hill
A GTP will absolutely power away at 100 Ks,so quick to get around another car and back in and back to the speed limit
A hyundai would not dream of doin that

[AussieAV]

Originally Posted by smee323

True. I recently got a fine for doing 125 trying to overtake a caravan I had sat behind for 10k doing 90 in a 110 zone (country) waiting for an overtaking zone.

Too late to do the maths, but someone needs to post up how long and how fa it would take a car to pass another.
Car 1 doing 90 and car 2 doing 100
Car 1 doing 90 and car 2 doing 125

Then see if you like speed limiting.

Bit hard to answer exactly, because the acceleration ability of different cars would vary greatly, but assuming you can accelerate instantly to 100 or 125 (or were already travelling at those speeds) I think it would take you roughly 3 times the distance to overtake at 100 compared to 125.

That of course also assumes my maths is correct !!!

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

I was so close to weighing out of this one, ....but ....just for one moment, think about who this all encompassing statement actually refers to.

AGAIN (this thread is no different to a thousand others), take the revenue out of it,and tell me that you are the moral compass who determines the thousands of people involved in attempting to reduce the road toll that they couldnt' give a flying crap about how many die on the roads.
By your logic, if staying in political power rested solely with solving the problem of the road toll, then those involved should be actively encouraging us to kill each other on the roads to justify constantly introducing legislation to reap financial reward off this carnage.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think there are a lot of people out there,("the people in charge of these things", and I don't mean just the pollies), who might be sitting at home tonight working on the next possible alternative to saving someones life. Just like the uncaring, insensitive bastards did when they introduced seat belt legislation, or stricter design legislation, or lower blood alcohol legislation, or ......

OK but if you look a little deeper you will discover accountants run everything nothing changes unless there is an opportunity to gain more wealth from it I will concede sometimes the economic and reduction in road trauma agendas align those are the changes that get instantiated the ones (such as speed limiting of cars) may or may not reduce the road toll wheras it is a known ironclad fact that it will reduce speed camera revenue how can one speed through a speed "trap" if the car is incapable of exceeding the speed limit (for whatever reason that may be)

your example of seatbelts I will have a crack - yes it saved lives clearly but it also made automakers to fit them in all their cars, this created a push for everybody wanting a car with seatbelts, so they were fitted to older models (albeit poorly), and lets not open the can of worms of the plod being given the power to fine people for not wearing their seatbelt, as you can see seatbelts were and still are a fantastic life saving simple device, but much money was made then (when the change took place) and even still today the police have the power to slap you with a "not wearing seatbelt" fine. This is an example of whats best for humanity aligning with what is profitable hence it was done.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Funny how 99% of these incidents of insane speed on public streets "seeing what the car will do" occur within an hours drive of race tracks.

Well 100% of the incidents of insane speed up here occur no where near a racetrack because regardless of whether you would like to attend a track day or not, you can't because there isn't one!

How many track days a month can an enthuisiast attend in Brisbane? 1? 2 at the outside but not over the three months over the christmas period?

Not a big window of opportunity there. I know that I am going to be trailering my bike down to the Sunny Coast next week for a two week stay and would have liked to attend a track day while there. Guess what? There is not one being run in that two week period so I will be hitting the Glasshouse mountains instead. Will I stay under the speed limit. Sometimes, but my bike wasn't really made for doing 80!

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Well 100% of the incidents of insane speed up here occur no where near a racetrack because regardless of whether you would like to attend a track day or not, you can't because there isn't one!

How many track days a month can an enthuisiast attend in Brisbane? 1? 2 at the outside but not over the three months over the christmas period?

Not a big window of opportunity there. I know that I am going to be trailering my bike down to the Sunny Coast next week for a two week stay and would have liked to attend a track day while there. Guess what? There is not one being run in that two week period so I will be hitting the Glasshouse mountains instead. Will I stay under the speed limit. Sometimes, but my bike wasn't really made for doing 80!

Look a bit harder. There are 3 circuit tracks. Lakeside, QR & Morgan Park.

Playing in the hills behind the sunny coast is bloody dangerous. You may be behaving yourself that there will be dozens of squids and superhero bogans in fully sick (insert 10 year old clapped out cable-tie enhanced pretend performance car here) all trying to kill you.

In addition it is heavily patrolled and being totally innocent is often not a viable defense against a hoon charge.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by flappist

Look a bit harder. There are 3 circuit tracks. Lakeside, QR & Morgan Park.

Playing in the hills behind the sunny coast is bloody dangerous. You may be behaving yourself that there will be dozens of squids and superhero bogans in fully sick (insert 10 year old clapped out cable-tie enhanced pretend performance car here) all trying to kill you.

I am already aware of all 3 tracks. None will be running trackdays between October 3-20 with the exception of Sunday 10th at QR. There is a half day being run by Champions. It just happens to be the day we are having having an important family gathering. A half day wouldn't be worth the travel from Cotton Tree either. I would spend longer getting there and back than actually riding on the track, if I were able to attend.

I realise that on weekends, the hills behind the Sunny coast are not ideal. Week days are generally a bit better, so I will make sure that I stay away on weekends. I also know of a few much quieter backroads where not too many people get to on weekdays. The ride out to Kenilworth is nice and quiet on a Mon-Thurs.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

So, in your post you not only refused to answer some simple questions that I put to you, but you completely go off the "off topic" topic. You sit here and criticise the government, the police and the safety councils yet I have not seen a solid suggestion from you in how to make improvements. It is easy to complain, it is harder to solve problems.

I find it most amusing that it is you that uses the "flog dead horse" symbol yet it is you that keeps bringing it up.

No point replying to this unless you answer the questions I put to you. I will not reply without those answers as there is no point.

Just in case you forgot, here are the questions.




On a different note, regarding the speed of emergency vehicles.



Experience over the years has shown that this is too hard to coordinate and by the time you have it up and running, we could have transported quicker without the escort. Also we have found the presence of multiple emergency vehicles confuses the public and leads to unsafe situations. It is quicker and safer to look after everything by ourself and so we no longer use police escorts.

I never said anything about definition of a drunk driver. but only that some think 0.05 is drunk.

How would i assess the competence of someone who maybe not fit to drive from drinking.
The same way we used to be assessed by walking the white line ect like it was before (if your old enough to remember them days)
The lowlife fascist socialism started dictating nonsense like someone just blowing 0.05 and your gone.
Cops had to justify there possession before he could act or then you had a right to go on your way.
Someone could be not fit to drive under 0.05 and in the old days he would be caught but not these days.
And i doubt the accuracy reading of them breathalysers anyway.

gecko GT I have every right to criticise who ever i want.
You want me to solve the problems! do you want me to wright a bloody thesis do ya.

[302 XC]

So no access to tracks ,dont make it legal to play the fool on the road
Many moons ago we drove a tuff as nails torana from brissie northside to willowbank for a few passes,not hours just a few passes
As much as we were tempted and urged to street race on the way there and back we didnt
Ever driven down the highway in hollow drum with a 6 cylinder screaming near 4,000 revs at 100 Ks ???
We wore ear plugs all the way there and back
It was the only place to test back then, you made the journey or took your chances on the street (no luxury of trailers)
Even driven threw towns we had to let the car in front be 3 car lengths head start before we could take of from any sets of lights(as much as the people behind were tooting away)
Doin u turns or even turning sharp corners,the locked diff whaled and screamed
So you had to be easy or you would attract attention
Point being,your not the first to be disadvantaged by limited facilities
Fact of life
Its how you deal with it,that matters

FYI,
Its great lakeside survived it was like many other tracks destined for housing estate

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

I am already aware of all 3 tracks. None will be running trackdays between October 3-20 with the exception of Sunday 10th at QR. There is a half day being run by Champions. It just happens to be the day we are having having an important family gathering. A half day wouldn't be worth the travel from Cotton Tree either. I would spend longer getting there and back than actually riding on the track, if I were able to attend.

I realise that on weekends, the hills behind the Sunny coast are not ideal. Week days are generally a bit better, so I will make sure that I stay away on weekends. I also know of a few much quieter backroads where not too many people get to on weekdays. The ride out to Kenilworth is nice and quiet on a Mon-Thurs.

Fair enough. Well be safe and have fun. The road from Pomona to Gympie via Cedar Pocket is a good one too.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by castellan

I never said anything about definition of a drunk driver. but only that some think 0.05 is drunk.

How would i assess the competence of someone who maybe not fit to drive from drinking.
The same way we used to be assessed by walking the white line ect like it was before (if your old enough to remember them days)
The lowlife fascist socialism started dictating nonsense like someone just blowing 0.05 and your gone.
Cops had to justify there possession before he could act or then you had a right to go on your way.
Someone could be not fit to drive under 0.05 and in the old days he would be caught but not these days.
And i doubt the accuracy reading of them breathalysers anyway.

gecko GT I have every right to criticise who ever i want.
You want me to solve the problems! do you want me to wright a bloody thesis do ya.

I never said anything about definition of a drunk driver. but only that some think 0.05 is drunk

.

I am I the only one that can see the contradiction here?

Ok, couple of issues here.

1. By the time someone has consumed enough alcohol to hinder them in traditional sobriety tests, they are considerably intoxicated. It is not about finding the rolling drunk, it is about finding those that have excessive degradation to their driving ability due to alcohol. This is a point that occurs long before a sobriety test would be failed.

2. You suggest we go back to the sobriety test, how do we do that in random "booze bus" programmes? A breath test takes all of a minute to do, a sobriety test takes about 5. In a booze bus setup we can experience some traffic delays but the general public see it as necessary. According to your idea we would have traffic delays 5 times longer, I am tipping your idea would not be popular.

3. Yes it is possible that someone that is exceptionally sensitive to the effects of alcohol may not be safe below 0.05, but I fail to see how your idea picks them up either. Perhaps we should drop it down to 0.02 just to be sure we get those ones too. How about zero tolerance, I live with it and so do many others so why not (not my actual opinion, I am happy with things the way they are). I have been to many prangs and very regularly the driver is breath tested in my ambulance, I have never once seen anyone below 0.05 show any physical signs of intoxication, but that is my experience so what would I know?

4. Breathalysers are calibrated and they have to be a good indicator of BAC. What you need to remember is the roadside test is a preliminary test, the test that results in a charge of DUI is done on another machine that has a higher level of accuracy.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

So no access to tracks ,dont make it legal to play the fool on the road

No one is saying it is! If speed and hooning is such a big issue though, provide people an area to let off steam! Isn't that preferable to crushing cars?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

No one is saying it is! If speed and hooning is such a big issue though, provide people an area to let off steam!

No issue and in a perfect world I agree here but who pays for it?

My last track day cost a considerable price (about $200-300 from memory), my experience is most of the ones involved in "letting off steam" on public roads are the same ones that will not pay that much to do it legally, they will do it illegally for free.

This is even more of an issue in rural areas, how do we fund the enormous cost of multiple facilities without enormous costs for the limited number of users (many of whom will not wish to pay that much if anything at all)?

[kinksta]

Today I was doing the speed limit of 110km and came across 3 cars all doing 80-90km/h. I sat behind for a while expecting one of the other cars to begin the overtaking procedures, but nope. There were a few long straights, and no one over took. By that time I had burned my opportunity to overtake all three as they were 1-2 car lengths apart.

It is at that point in time that I don't understand, if I begin to overtake at 110km and get next to the car at the front then see a car coming ahead, the law says I must slow down and return to my lane. It gets dangerous when people do slow speeds, especially a group of slowies...

I think a speed limit of 120km for overtaking should be allowed, but it would be impossible to police, it will never happen though.

PS. I never have had an urge to let off steam in a car, my boxing bag is for that!!

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by kinksta

Today I was doing the speed limit of 110km and came across 3 cars all doing 80-90km/h. I sat behind for a while expecting one of the other cars to begin the overtaking procedures, but nope. There were a few long straights, and no one over took. By that time I had burned my opportunity to overtake all three as they were 1-2 car lengths apart.

It is at that point in time that I don't understand, if I begin to overtake at 110km and get next to the car at the front then see a car coming ahead, the law says I must slow down and return to my lane. It gets dangerous when people do slow speeds, especially a group of slowies...

I think a speed limit of 120km for overtaking should be allowed, but it would be impossible to police, it will never happen though.

PS. I never have had an urge to let off steam in a car, my boxing bag is for that!!

It is times like that that it would be nice if the other cars had some consideration for other road users. Sure if you want to sit 20 kmh under the limit that is your right, but if you are traveling with 2 other cars doing the same and have no intention of overtaking, double space so other cars can leap frog you all as it is safe to do so. It would be better and safer overtaking 3 individual cars one at a time rather than 3 cars occupying the length of a road train.

There is no logical reason why three cars in a group with no intention of overtaking can not spread the spacing enough for other road users to do this safely.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

No issue and in a perfect world I agree here but who pays for it?

My last track day cost a considerable price (about $200-300 from memory), my experience is most of the ones involved in "letting off steam" on public roads are the same ones that will not pay that much to do it legally, they will do it illegally for free.

This is even more of an issue in rural areas, how do we fund the enormous cost of multiple facilities without enormous costs for the limited number of users (many of whom will not wish to pay that much if anything at all)?

Why not integrate compulsory driver training schemes, for learners, advanced driver training as well as people who have lost their licence for speeding/drink driving offences.This would utilize a track for 3 days a week alone.

These tracks dont have to be fancy. No international standard pit areas or run off areaqs to suit MotoGP standards are required. Just a track of a couple of klms in length with a decent surface. It could be intergrated into a sporting complex, likethe local showgrounds, hockey fields,etc. A track like Winton was 15 years ago before the upgrades. Slightly larger versions of a go kart track.

Use the coal tax to pay for/subsidize it. After all, these rural areas with little in the way of infrastrucuture are the money pits of the Australian economy, so why not give something back to rural Aus?

As for the cost of a track day, I agree that they should be slightly cheaper. I think $150 is a fair amount. Thats about what bike track days are at many of the tracks and at this price point, lots of people can see the value in it. Not sure if car track days are dearer.

Make it cheap enough that people will use it, and at the same time make the punishment for anti social behaviour much, much harsher, although in real terms the punishment for an offence like this now can have quite severe consequences.

Even under todays laws, what would getting caught doing 50kph over the limit cost in comparison to the $150- $300 trackday if you get caught? Loss of your job? At the very least a fine that would cost 3x the trackday, or at worst, depending on what the charges are, have your car impounded and/or crushed as well as having a criminal record?

I don't have all the answers for those out there for every demographic. There are people out there who make some very strange decisions in life and may not see the value in a track day. If some feral wants to do stupid crap on the road, nothing that the government does will stop it, but I think that giving more access to services like this is a positive step.

I certainly know that I would attend a track day every month if there were those facilities available to me within a reasonable distance of home. Considering how many guys who work in the mines up here have so much free time on their equal time rosters and are cashed up and driving the latest FPV, HSV or modded up skyline around this town, and considering how much interest there is in cars and bikes here in general, I dont think I would be alone.

[302 XC]

Yes driving under the limit causes more issues
See a street comin up some people slow down,without indication are they turning ???
We wait with anticipation
Wait,wait,then nothin then they speed up again
Annoying to say the least

As for the Off Street events
Bein younger there were off street drags at lakeside (gee im getting on )
The cops would sit up on the main street
You would be surprised how many idiots would smoke the bags right in front of them
So do the off street events work ???
Well probably
Build it and they will come
And im all for it
But who funds it,insurance premiums would be outta this world
If we had these events and increased the fines by double or triple for road offences
(burn outs,illegal drags ect)
Whos for it ???
Spinning the wheels at all,even a little is an offence nowadays
So cop a fine of what 1.5-2K for spinning wheels to help fund off street racing
Whos for that ???
Didnt melbourne have the "smokey"immitation cop drag car years ago ???
Yes it worked,but not running any more
Im definately all for these events,but its just not as simple as thinking about it
Many have tried , obviously without success
These type of things cost lots of money to get up and running

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

No issue and in a perfect world I agree here but who pays for it?

My last track day cost a considerable price (about $200-300 from memory), my experience is most of the ones involved in "letting off steam" on public roads are the same ones that will not pay that much to do it legally, they will do it illegally for free.

This is even more of an issue in rural areas, how do we fund the enormous cost of multiple facilities without enormous costs for the limited number of users (many of whom will not wish to pay that much if anything at all)?

Agree 100%, the "letting off steam" line is a cop out, there isnt too many shooting ranges around home but you dont see people down at the local park letting off a few rounds in "frustration"...

As you say the ones most likely to offend and break the laws on the roads are the ones who wont pay to use a track and cars probably wouldnt pass scrutineering too....

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

OK but if you look a little deeper you will discover accountants run everything nothing changes unless there is an opportunity to gain more wealth from it I will concede sometimes the economic and reduction in road trauma agendas align those are the changes that get instantiated the ones (such as speed limiting of cars) may or may not reduce the road toll wheras it is a known ironclad fact that it will reduce speed camera revenue how can one speed through a speed "trap" if the car is incapable of exceeding the speed limit (for whatever reason that may be)

your example of seatbelts I will have a crack - yes it saved lives clearly but it also made automakers to fit them in all their cars, this created a push for everybody wanting a car with seatbelts, so they were fitted to older models (albeit poorly), and lets not open the can of worms of the plod being given the power to fine people for not wearing their seatbelt, as you can see seatbelts were and still are a fantastic life saving simple device, but much money was made then (when the change took place) and even still today the police have the power to slap you with a "not wearing seatbelt" fine. This is an example of whats best for humanity aligning with what is profitable hence it was done.

Not really sure I follow this real well, but one thing I will say,I haven't seen anywhere on this forum, or in any particular thread, where anyone has complained ,cried ,whined or otherwise about being fined for not wearing a seat belt

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Agree 100%, the "letting off steam" line is a cop out, there isnt too many shooting ranges around home but you dont see people down at the local park letting off a few rounds in "frustration"...

As you say the ones most likely to offend and break the laws on the roads are the ones who wont pay to use a track and cars probably wouldnt pass scrutineering too....

On the contrary, there are plany of gun clubs around where you can legally go and shoot. They are on the outskirts of any major city as well as country towns. I dont know where you live, but would almost guarantee you would be within 100klm of several gun clubs.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

On the contrary, there are plany of gun clubs around where you can legally go and shoot. They are on the outskirts of any major city as well as country towns. I dont know where you live, but would almost guarantee you would be within 100klm of several gun clubs.

I can see your point and I can also see the point from 4Vman. Think of this situation, we have legal test and tunes at willowbank on most wednesday and saturday nights. At the same time (and often on the same night) we had issues with large groups of cars running rolling blocks on the m1 and conducting street races, they had the option of the drags, why not use it (and it only cost $37).

Also, why was it in nearly every track day I have attended, the average age of participants is in the 40's, anyone under 30 is very rare?

[XR6TCraig]

Same thing happens across a wide spectrum of activities and as I have said, I cant account for every demographic.

There are Golf courses everywhere and yet people want to hit golf balls on the local footy oval.
Brothels are widely available in society yet rapes and other sexual assaults happen.
Plenty of places to do boxing, martial arts yet people want to fight at the pub!

Same kind of logic. There is no accounting for what/how people think and what makes them tick. We arent going to solve the problems of the world here. I am just offering an opinion on what I reckon would be a positive thing for getting some of the hoons off the road. I'm getting the sense that a few here don't think it will work,yet no other alternative is offered, just negativity. You are telling me that it doesn't work. I am saying that there are areas where many people dont even have that option and if they did it may make some difference. Not the be all and end all, but a step in the right direction.

The powers that be can do so much, but at the end of the day each individual makes there choice.

[geckoGT]

Another example.

Adelaide has no public access to any form of motorsport complex but Perth, Melbourne, Hobart, Sydney and Brisbane do. Why is it that Adelaide does not have a significantly higher instance of street racing than the other cities?

I am not saying you are on the wrong track, such facilities may reduce the incidence of illegal activity on the street, but it would only be a small amount and most likely not cost effective.

These tracks dont have to be fancy. No international standard pit areas or run off areaqs to suit MotoGP standards are required. Just a track of a couple of klms in length with a decent surface. It could be intergrated into a sporting complex, likethe local showgrounds, hockey fields,etc. A track like Winton was 15 years ago before the upgrades. Slightly larger versions of a go kart track.

Think of the cost, just a couple of Km's of good bitumen will cost millions, add to that the upkeep of that. Plus you have to have run off areas when dealing with 2 tonnes of vehicle doing high speeds (even the road circuit at Mt Cotton training centre is speed limited due to run off requirements) and you have to have concrete safety barriers. Any such facility has to have public safety devices to ensure the safety of the participants and spectators. You can not get around that, any facility has a duty of care to the people using it. Even a modest little track with a couple of km's of track and a burnout pad would cost upwards of $10m in setup and then $100,000's per year in maintenance.