diesel cars in decline...

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I dont know why poeple keep saying this.. Mondeo sales around 500 per month (on a good month).. So it can't be more than that, is that what you class as "A lot"?? I also here (around this forums, not based on data) that Mondeo has high private sales too, so these need to be taken off as well. So what is it people, high private or lots of fleet that are making up this HUGE 500 units a month!!..

I think to many people are trying to build up Mondeo just to have a go at Falcon!!

Try 950 on a good month. Last year, they were the second largest selling vehicle in their segment.

[prydey]

Globally, Ford is rapidly expanding its capacity to produce efficient, downsized EcoBoost
petrol engines and Mr Katic agreed that eventually there is likely to be a swing back to petrol
power as tougher emissions regulations make it increasingly difficult and expensive to
develop diesel engines.

so bmw and ford are now saying the long term future of diesel will be expensive. surely they can't both be making it up?

whilst everything looks rosy now, i dare say manufacturers are looking a lot further into the future than most on here. emissions laws are forever tightening.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

so bmw and ford are now saying the long term future of diesel will be expensive. surely they can't both be making it up?

whilst everything looks rosy now, i dare say manufacturers are looking a lot further into the future than most on here. emissions laws are forever tightening.

I guarantee you that changed emissions will have a greater effect on Europe than us, the majority of vehicles there are diesels.
Until DI turbo petrol matches diesel's fuel economy, Europeans will keep on buying diesels..

When the change comes, Europeans will whinge and moan but still pay the higher cost for a fuel efficient diesel...

Maybe Ecoboost hybrid is a better solution....

[prydey]

maybe so, but australia falls in line with the euro emissions regs eventually. if the companies that build the diesel engines deems it too expensive to continue development, then it will eventually impact here.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

maybe so, but australia falls in line with the euro emissions regs eventually. if the companies that build the diesel engines deems it too expensive to continue development, then it will eventually impact here.

We lag many years behind because of the cost of emissions, by the time Euro 6 gets to us the cost of emission
complian equipment will be amortized, the reason Europe pushed back Euro 6 was because euro manufacturers
told the board they had no way of economically meeting the emission regs in time, could you imagine Ford or GM
saying that to the EPA?
No, they would fine them in a cool minute for non-compliance...ECE is down right amicable by comparison

[jpd80]

The only thing we know for sure is that FoA cannot get enough diesel vehicles to fill customer orders.
Diesel in Mondeo, Focus and now Kuga is difficult, restricted or just not available at all..

[falconnut]

Expensive maintenance and diesel prices is a real turn off.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by falconnut

Expensive maintenance and diesel prices is a real turn off.

The servicing costs for a diesel are similar to a petrol, most diesels have 15,000 km service intervals..

[Brazen]

Remember when Gorman used to bring out all those spreadsheets showing how buyers would be better off with petrol Territory than diesel due maintence and other running costs? Hence why they cancelled diesel. Classic Ford telling customers what they want rather than giving customers what they want.

What percentage of Territories now are diesel 70, 80%?

The arguments against diesel Falcon sound awfully familiar...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Remember when Gorman used to bring out all those spreadsheets showing how buyers would be better off with petrol Territory than diesel due maintence and other running costs? Hence why they cancelled diesel. Classic Ford telling customers what they want rather than giving customers what they want.

What percentage of Territories now are diesel 70, 80%?

The arguments against diesel Falcon sound awfully familiar...

I take a measured view Brazen, the previous model Jaguar XF had the 2.7 V6 TDCI
but only achieved about a 7.5 l/100 km combined fuel economy figure.

Perhaps Ford felt Ecoboost was a better bet and that people wanting diesel probably
wanted even better fuel economy found in diesel mondeo as hatch and Stationwagon...

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

Try 950 on a good month. Last year, they were the second largest selling vehicle in their segment.

Ok.. You want real numbers..

A total of 6626 cars sold for 12 months of 2011, which makes an average of 552.16 cars. With the best month in March of 772 & the worst month in Oct of 329. So my point of 500 for a good week is wrong, more like 552 on average for 12 months. If anything, it look like sales dropped in the last half of 2011 compared to the first half for 2011!! That can't be a good sign things are picking up!!

Source
http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...ategory&cid=71

P.S Falcon was 2nd in segment too!!!

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

Re: around town diesel figures, I can tell you for fact I get roughly 300km round town running out of 45 litres. (15lt/100km), highway running of about 10lt/100km and extra urban of 8.8lt/100km.

Absolutely pathetic. I for one will never ever buy diesel again based on running costs, insurance and servicing.

Petrol tech is where its at and that's what I'm going back to as soon as funding allows.

If your Pajero was the 3.8L petrol, judging from the woeful economy you're getting from the diesel, I'd imagine your combined economy would be easily be in the 20's. I have a feeling something is wrong with your car as my old mans Hilux SR5 diesel with heaps of aftermarket extras (it weighs 2.6 tonnes) does 9L/100km on the highway still, and about 12L/100km in town. The Pajero diesel is much better than the Hilux diesel.

Originally Posted by falconnut

Expensive maintenance and diesel prices is a real turn off.

Diesel cars have the same service intervals as petrol cars. Diesel costs the same as premium 95 petrol and is generally 30% more efficient than petrol. Moot point.

Originally Posted by jpd80

I take a measured view Brazen, the previous model Jaguar XF had the 2.7 V6 TDCI
but only achieved about a 7.5 l/100 km combined fuel economy figure.

Perhaps Ford felt Ecoboost was a better bet and that people wanting diesel probably
wanted even better fuel economy found in diesel mondeo as hatch and Stationwagon...

I know that the 2.7L V6 diesel works okay in the Territory, but it's such an old engine and we should look at more modern technology. Jaguar now use a 2.2L 4 cylinder diesel in their "base model" which makes 140kW, 450Nm, which is the same power, but 10Nm more torque than the 2.7L V6. The Jaguar is 1745kgs, and uses 5.4L/100km (35% better economy than Ecoboost Falcon) and 149g C02.

What I'm saying is, using the 2.7L V6 diesel in a Falcon would be a backward step anyway. If they were going to get serious about diesel, they should use a more modern engine with better economy benefits.

[jpd80]

That 2.2 may not be available, it's the PSA unit, not the one in Ranger...

While good fuel economy is important, perhaps buyers aren't looking for extreme economy....

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by jpd80

That 2.2 may not be available, it's the PSA unit, not the one in Ranger...

Yes, I know. I used it as an example.

What I'm saying is, the 2.7L V6 is old tech and outdated. If Ford were going to be serious about Falcon diesel, they would need a better and more economical engine than the 2.7L V6.

Ford would have access to the 2.2L Duratorq engine from the Mondeo which is 129kW/400Nm (in Euro spec) which would be plenty.

Originally Posted by jpd80

That 2.2 may not be available, it's the PSA unit, not the one in Ranger...

While good fuel economy is important, perhaps buyers aren't looking for extreme economy....

I think Territory sales speak volumes. 70%+ for the diesel. Clearly these people care about fuel economy. If it's the family car, fuel economy and range to a tank is very important. How many conversations have you had with people at work or whatever about their car and they'll say something like, "I get 800 kays from my tank". We know that without knowing the size of the tank, saying how many KMs you get from the tank is a redundant statement. Still, people seem to care as it's bragging rights.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Nic85

I think Territory sales speak volumes. 70%+ for the diesel. Clearly these people care about fuel economy. If it's the family car, fuel economy and range to a tank is very important.

Well let's see,
In RWD Territory, there's a reduction from 10.6 l/100 km petrol down to 8.2 l/100 km diesel.

So Falcon is going from 9.9 l/100 km down to 8.0 l/100 km...but stays with petrol

and no price premium..

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Well let's see,
In RWD Territory, there's a reduction from 10.6 l/100 km petrol down to 8.2 l/100 km diesel.

So Falcon is going from 9.9 l/100 km down to 8.0 l/100 km...but stays with petrol

and no price premium..

So, Territory reduces fuel consumption by 33% and Falcon by 19%. Seems a fairly big difference to me. Also, I've said it before, the real world savings for Territory would be much more. Petrol Territory getting 10.6L/100km combined cycle in the real world is much less likely than getting 8.2L/100km from the diesel in the real world.

Think about this then too. Purely hypothetical, so people don't get their undies all in a twist, if Ford got their hands on let's say the 2.2L Duratorq diesel, and in Falcon they got the consumption down to say 6.5L/100km (which is entirely possible), that represents a 35% consumption reduction from I6 Falcon, and 20% better economy than EB4 Falcon.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Well let's see,
In RWD Territory, there's a reduction from 10.6 l/100 km petrol down to 8.2 l/100 km diesel.

So Falcon is going from 9.9 l/100 km down to 8.0 l/100 km...but stays with petrol

and no price premium..

But do people want it? If we bought cars purely on figures we'd all be driving ex govt Hybrid Camrys :-) or EcoLPi.

Diesel will get non-Falcon buyers into Falcon, Ecoboost will just grab I6 and EcoLPi buyers. Heck there are probably five farmers in my district who would get a diesel Falcon tommorrow. And the grey nomad brigade would go nuts for it.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Nic85

So, Territory reduces fuel consumption by 33% and Falcon by 19%. Seems a fairly big difference to me.

Or that they both get a combined of about 8 litres/100 km.
So same fuel economy in Territory and in Diesel...

Originally Posted by Brazen

But do people want it? If we bought cars purely on figures we'd all be driving ex govt Hybrid Camrys :-) or EcoLPi.

Nothing is a dead set cert...I don't know but at least Echoboost is completely different..

Diesel will get non-Falcon buyers into Falcon, Ecoboost will just grab I6 and EcoLPi buyers. Heck there are probably five farmers in my district who would get a diesel Falcon tommorrow. And the grey nomad brigade would go nuts for it.

We will never know because there is no diesel falcon on the horizion but there is an Ecoboost Falcon here in six weeks time..
It is easy to argue for things we think buyers would definitly want but given that the
Ecoboost is basically here and now, has an I-4 making it more appealing to a bigger
audience should be welcome news... plus some performance fun factor is still there too..

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Diesel will get non-Falcon buyers into Falcon, Ecoboost will just grab I6 and EcoLPi buyers.

Serious question.. What is your reasoning behind this conclusion?

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I dont know why poeple keep saying this.. Mondeo sales around 500 per month (on a good month).. So it can't be more than that, is that what you class as "A lot"?? I also here (around this forums, not based on data) that Mondeo has high private sales too, so these need to be taken off as well. So what is it people, high private or lots of fleet that are making up this HUGE 500 units a month!!..

I think to many people are trying to build up Mondeo just to have a go at Falcon!!

hmmm not to mention any names for risk of instagating BRAZEN...again

[1TUFFUTE]

people forget how powerfull hindsight is...ford did their research on diesel falcon in our small market and found it nonviable yet. Diesel sales in aus are TINY still compared to petrol so saying its a saviour is seriously kidding yourselves. Not to mention that anybody with A BRAIN knows diesel terris selling at 70% is bassically half a fixed number anyway...as ford would prefer diesel sales so they stock dealers with diesels and make people wait for petrol....common guys....do some homework ...or thinking before you speak...please

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

people forget how powerfull hindsight is...ford did their research on diesel falcon in our small market and found it nonviable yet. Diesel sales in aus are TINY still compared to petrol so saying its a saviour is seriously kidding yourselves. Not to mention that anybody with A BRAIN knows diesel terris selling at 70% is bassically half a fixed number anyway...as ford would prefer diesel sales so they stock dealers with diesels and make people wait for petrol....common guys....do some homework ...or thinking before you speak...please

Ford also did their research on the viability of a diesel engine in the Territory and it was completely wrong.

No one is saying diesel in a Falcon is a saviour, we're saying it gives the Falcon another engine choice, and a viable economical option for customers.

70% is half of a fixed number? I'm lost. I thought 70% was 7/10ths of a fixed number.

Link to proof of Ford making much more diesel Territory's than petrol ones to make customers buy diesel over petrol?

[jpd80]

There is no Diesel Falcon

There is an EcoLPI Falcon
There is an Ecoboost Falcon.

Instead of exhausting fruitless posts trying to prove that a diesel Falcon should have been included,
we should be focusing on what Ford is delivering and what effect those vehicles have on fleet and retail sales.

EcoLPI - fleet sales will come back but now Holden is a strong competitor with dedicated LPG

Ecoboost I-4 - primarily intended for retail buyers but may surprise with fleet sales as
Holden has no competitor, EB Falcon also under cuts Omega fuel economy making
it very attractive as a basic replacement to I-6 V6 petrol fleet sales. It also gives
Falcon access to I-4 only fleets and almost equals new Camry's 2.5 I-4 fuel economy.

So is Ecoboost an I-6 replacement?

It's kind of, since around 75% of Falcon sales are to fleets, Ford is now giving them
the choice of I-6 petrol, I-6 EcoLPI and I-4 Ecoboost petrol and while EcoLPI is
considered the fleet favorite, LPG will at best only account for around 4,000 sales
a year so petrol is still pretty strong with fleets, maybe Ecoboost exploits that...

While Ford insists that Ecoboost isn't a direct replacement fotr the I-6, they are
giving buyers a no cost choice between the two, that has to be the strongest
indicator that Ford wants the market to decide which way Falcon engines go.

[prydey]

many fleets have a 4cyl only policy which is where ecoboost comes in.

[b0son]

Not to mention years ago, it was more or less expected that a reps car would be a falcadore. Then came the GFC, and companies could finally downsize their fleet cars without backlash. How many of these companies have gone back to falcadores?

[Bossxr8]

The worrying thing is that Ford are giving people plenty of engine options, more than they ever have, and yet sales keep dropping. What gives?

Seems to me its not just economy or running costs that are the issue, and diesel won't change the fact that consumer confidence in Falcon is shot, and Ford are going to do nothing to change people's perceptions, they won't even advertise Falcon ffs.

They could make it the worlds most economical car and it would still tank if Ford continue to sit on their hands and not even back it.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Ford also did their research on the viability of a diesel engine in the Territory and it was completely wrong.

No one is saying diesel in a Falcon is a saviour, we're saying it gives the Falcon another engine choice, and a viable economical option for customers.

70% is half of a fixed number? I'm lost. I thought 70% was 7/10ths of a fixed number.

Link to proof of Ford making much more diesel Territory's than petrol ones to make customers buy diesel over petrol?

your comments obvioulsy support those who have the opinion that ford should have a diesel engine in falcon....now im suggesting not to be so niave as to assume for the FALCON that it needs one now. Im sure fords research plus the fact that petrol is a much bigger market...plus the fact that they would rather the ecoboost 4 as it is petrol and can gain non private sales in numbers. Do i really need to go on or do people here really not think a multi million dollar company has the right to make their own extremely touch choices at such a critical stage in falcons life. ...and for sooo many to get on here and say they know better is down right embarresing as aloyal ford fan.

And as for the terri slaes being 70% ask anyone who bought a diesel and i bet most of them couldnt get petrol if theyd asked immediatley....AS THIS IS WHAT HAS BEEN COMMUNICATED TO US ON THIS FORUM A HUNDRED TIMES FROM BUYERS

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The worrying thing is that Ford are giving people plenty of engine options, more than they ever have, and yet sales keep dropping. What gives?

Seems to me its not just economy or running costs that are the issue, and diesel won't change the fact that consumer confidence in Falcon is shot, and Ford are going to do nothing to change people's perceptions, they won't even advertise Falcon ffs.

They could make it the worlds most economical car and it would still tank if Ford continue to sit on their hands and not even back it.

AND WHILE IN THE LAST 1 MONTH IVE SEEN MORE HOLDEN ADDS...IVE SEEN TWICE AS MANT FALCON ADDS THEN COMMADORE...ALBIET NO ECOLPI YET (sorry capslock again)

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

your comments obvioulsy support those who have the opinion that ford should have a diesel engine in falcon....now im suggesting not to be so niave as to assume for the FALCON that it needs one now. Im sure fords research plus the fact that petrol is a much bigger market...plus the fact that they would rather the ecoboost 4 as it is petrol and can gain non private sales in numbers. Do i really need to go on or do people here really not think a multi million dollar company has the right to make their own extremely touch choices at such a critical stage in falcons life. ...and for sooo many to get on here and say they know better is down right embarresing as aloyal ford fan.

And as for the terri slaes being 70% ask anyone who bought a diesel and i bet most of them couldnt get petrol if theyd asked immediatley....AS THIS IS WHAT HAS BEEN COMMUNICATED TO US ON THIS FORUM A HUNDRED TIMES FROM BUYERS

Yep good plan, ignore the customers and listen to 22 year old Ford marketing grads. Pffft silly Mondeo and Territory buyers choosing diesel.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

your comments obvioulsy support those who have the opinion that ford should have a diesel engine in falcon....now im suggesting not to be so niave as to assume for the FALCON that it needs one now. Im sure fords research plus the fact that petrol is a much bigger market...plus the fact that they would rather the ecoboost 4 as it is petrol and can gain non private sales in numbers. Do i really need to go on or do people here really not think a multi million dollar company has the right to make their own extremely touch choices at such a critical stage in falcons life. ...and for sooo many to get on here and say they know better is down right embarresing as aloyal ford fan.

And as for the terri slaes being 70% ask anyone who bought a diesel and i bet most of them couldnt get petrol if theyd asked immediatley....AS THIS IS WHAT HAS BEEN COMMUNICATED TO US ON THIS FORUM A HUNDRED TIMES FROM BUYERS

Yes mate, I support a diesel engine in Falcon. But, please understand, I support it in the way that I think adding options for customers is a good thing, not in the way that I think Falcon must have diesel or it'll die.

Fact is, Falcon won't get a diesel. Lord knows why they didn't engineer it for the Falcon at the same time they did for Territory, but nevermind, we're past that now.

Ask all those Territory owners who were "forced" to buy a diesel car if they're now happy with their purchace. I'll bet my house every single one of them says, "yes".

What was this topic about again? .