FORD person or FALCON person?????

[xm289]

I will buy a territory in 2016 and that should keep me going till at least 2026. My xm coupe and xm wagon will stay in the family.

Very sad day, disappointed with ford for not continuing to manufacture in oz, I understand falcon's time is up but ford should have stayed making territory and I reckon a dual cab 4x4 ute falcon and focus.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by stevz

This is my view also unfortunately. Hell will freeze over before I buy an imported Ford and anybody that does should hang their head in shame.

But I thought you were a 'Car enthusiast'? Has something changed? What happens if Ford in 2016 have a bargain ball tearer? Suddenly become biased against Ford? Its Bizarro World!

All those times when people sooked that Ford enthusiasts were too one eyed to look at anything else ...... but now themselves would ignore what Ford has to offer in years to come? Bit of a contradiction I would think .......? All way to confusing must say!

[xm289]

emotions are running pretty high, yesterday I was saying I'll buy a holden commodore but today sense is returning.
Im not surprise that there is alot of emotion aimed at ford, I reckon Ford U.S has been working towards this for 10-15 years.

[borough]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

But I thought you were a 'Car enthusiast'? Has something changed? What happens if Ford in 2016 have a bargain ball tearer? Suddenly become biased against Ford? Its Bizarro World!

Can't see a Taurus or Mondeo coming close to a Falcon. I came for the Falcon and I will leave after the Falcon has gone. Come 11/2016 Ford is dead to me as they have nothing for me. Mustang? Not very practical with children. Mondeo? May as well get a Camry, at least they are built here.

[Inferno]

The last model I'd consider buying was a 2007 Fairmont Ghia MKII V8, considering most have well over 100,000 on the clock, it will be a new 300 SRT8 sometime in 2014 for me.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

But I thought you were a 'Car enthusiast'? Has something changed? What happens if Ford in 2016 have a bargain ball tearer? Suddenly become biased against Ford? Its Bizarro World!

All those times when people sooked that Ford enthusiasts were too one eyed to look at anything else ...... but now themselves would ignore what Ford has to offer in years to come? Bit of a contradiction I would think .......? All way to confusing must say!

Yes I am a car enthusiast. An AUSTRALIAN car enthusiast.
More importantly, I absolutely despise the idea of supporting foreign economies by purchasing imports, when we make perfectly good world class cars RIGHT HERE.
It is absolutely killing me inside when I see the way this once great nation is going down the chute. We have become nothing but a sell-out and a dumping ground for the rest of the world, while we sit back and allow our industries and essentially our futures to die. It makes me so angry that I want to explode.
Ford has washed their hands of Australia and by becoming full importer they are now no different in my eyes to Hyundai or Kia or any other imported rubbish, so this is where my support for them ends.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by stevz

Yes I am a car enthusiast. An AUSTRALIAN car enthusiast.
More importantly, I absolutely despise the idea of supporting foreign economies by purchasing imports, when we make perfectly good world class cars RIGHT HERE.
It is absolutely killing me inside when I see the way this once great nation is going down the chute. We have become nothing but a sell-out and a dumping ground for the rest of the world, while we sit back and allow our industries and essentially our futures to die. It makes me so angry that I want to explode.
Ford has washed their hands of Australia and by becoming full importer they are now no different in my eyes to Hyundai or Kia or any other imported rubbish, so this is where my support for them ends.

FFS will you ever get it?
For me, and many others there is NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING Australian made that i want that will suit my needs. So why would i hand over 40k of my hard earned $$$ on a car that i dont want?

Have you purchased a new Ford? (Not a silly question, just not sure if you have)

[TMC]

I have a 2006 Territory and I will keep it. If I have to rebuild it 5 times I'll do it to keep it going. The Territory is the best car that has ever come out of this country IMO.

I have an XG Falcon that I am doing up. I got a wrecked XG with rust and a great drivetrain and I've stripped it of everything useful to store away in the shed for when anything needs replacing. I will have enough bits and pieces to keep it going for another 30 or 40 years. I'll be like one of those 70 or 80 year old blokes who has a pristine XY ute that everyone wishes they had. My Territory will be with me too if I have anything to do with it. Without the I6, the imported Ford will appear to me like a Kia or Chery, boring and pointless.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

For what value for money? It's a cheap **** front wheel drive POS. So you are paying Falcon dollars for something that costs half as much to build when it should cost 2/3 the price of a Falcon.
Manufacturers make FWD cars for one reason TO SAVE MANUFACTURING $$$

Not because they are better.

When Aston Martin's, Ferrari's BMW's and such can convince us that FWD is better than RWD I might start to believe the BS.

Hey mate, you might want to get your facts sorted ,modern FWD cars just might surprise you.

An equivalent FWD car will use less fuel due to less drivetrain losses, be lighter and hence use less fuel and be cheaper to produce.

Ford know it and so does the rest of the world.

US states like California demand better and better fuel economy and you won't do it with a RWD car versus a FWD car anymore, generally 15% losses versus 25% at the wheels.

If you don't like FWD why not lobby for more AWD Ford passenger cars?

(of course you know they use even more fuel...right?)

Personally I would like to see a turbo AWD Mondeo, it would be a weapon.

[borough]

Originally Posted by DJM83

FFS will you ever get it?
For me, and many others there is NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING Australian made that i want that will suit my needs. So why would i hand over 40k of my hard earned $$$ on a car that i dont want?

Have you purchased a new Ford? (Not a silly question, just not sure if you have)

You just don't seem to get it. The difference between Ford and other car brands for me and many others was the Falcon. A car designed, engineered and built in Australia for Australian conditions. You can like your Focus but to me it is no different to a Golf GTi or Holden Cruze SRi-V. A little turbocharged buz box that will never last as long as a Falcon.

A question to you, from 11/2016 what is the point of difference in the Ford lineup compared to VW, Mazda, Hyundai, Renault, Kia, Nissan, etc? My answer is NOTHING.

[borough]

Originally Posted by zilo

Hey mate, you might want to get your facts sorted ,modern FWD cars just might surprise you.

An equivalent FWD car will use less fuel due to less drivetrain losses, be lighter and hence use less fuel and be cheaper to produce.

Ford know it and so does the rest of the world.

US states like California demand better and better fuel economy and you won't do it with a RWD car versus a FWD car anymore, generally 15% losses versus 25% at the wheels.

If you don't like FWD why not lobby for more AWD Ford passenger cars?

(of course you know they use even more fuel...right?)

Personally I would like to see a turbo AWD Mondeo, it would be a weapon.

I think you need to get your facts sorted about Ecoboost being fuel efficient as they are meant to be.
http://www.brandchannel.com/home/pos...es-051713.aspx

[zilo]

Originally Posted by borough

I think you need to get your facts sorted about Ecoboost being fuel efficient as they are meant to be.
http://www.brandchannel.com/home/pos...es-051713.aspx

You have replied to me with an internet link from some vague organisation that is lean on facts and big on heresay.

I think I'll stick with Ford's version about the merits of ecoboost technology instead mate.

[Jim5_0]

Originally Posted by zilo

Hey mate, you might want to get your facts sorted ,modern FWD cars just might surprise you.

Yes I have driven several modern FWD cars lately. The ones that come to mind are: Focus, Mondeo, Elantra, i30, Corolla and Aurion. The Elantra & Focus were the least boring & the Aurion was beautifully smooth and powerful but oh the interior (shame).

Granted they are better than they used to be but you cannot fight the laws of physics which say harder accelleration shifts the cars weight from the front wheels to the rear ones RWD shifts the weight to the driving wheels FWD shifts it away from the driving wheels the harder you accelerate.

Modern FWD cars compensate for this with traction control etc but in reality all that traction control does is reduce the power going to the drive wheels which effectively slows you down.

Originally Posted by zilo

An equivalent FWD car will use less fuel due to less drivetrain losses, be lighter and hence use less fuel and be cheaper to produce.

I did mention those points in another post and added the potential for more interior room in the FWD car.

Having said that I went from a 4 year old FWD 2.6EFI manual Magna in 1993 & into a brand new RWD 4.0EFI manual EB2 Falcon.

The Magna used an average of 10.3L/100km the Falcon used 10.7L/100km
Was it the Falcon's RWD that used the small amount of extra fuel? or was it the Falcon's extra weight or much larger and more powerful engine? I'd say the latter two more than the first thing.

Originally Posted by zilo

Ford know it and so does the rest of the world.

Make that the rest of the world that produces white goods on wheels. Premium brands remain predominantly RWD.

Originally Posted by zilo

US states like California demand better and better fuel economy and you won't do it with a RWD car versus a FWD car anymore, generally 15% losses versus 25% at the wheels.

Do the Falcon and Commodore really use that much more fuel than the similar sized Aurion? I don't have the figures in front of me but I doubt that they do. Is the current FWD ford Taurus economical compared to the Falcon? no way.

Originally Posted by zilo

If you don't like FWD why not lobby for more AWD Ford passenger cars?

Personally I would like to see a turbo AWD Mondeo, it would be a weapon.

Because Ford don't listen to their customers in Australia and I would buy an Aussie built Holden or even Toyota before I'd buy any imported car. I just think that it's wrong to choose to send a years wages to another country every time you buy a new car.

The companies that used to manufacture car tyres here don't charge us any less for them now that they are imported from China or Malaysia. As a result I refuse to pay $50 or so more for a "brand name" tyre made in China or Malaysia than I can buy a Maxxis (Chinese) or Kumho (Korean) tyre for yes I stay away from the really cheap Chinese brands.

Maxxis have been one of the best push bike tyre brands for several years now and they are making quite decent car tyres these days.

So why would I pay a premium for a Thailand built Ford when I could buy a decent Japanese built car for not much more $$ if Australia ceases to produce any cars?

[NX74205]

Originally Posted by borough

Mondeo? May as well get a Camry, at least they are built here.

Mondeo is a better car and more fun to drive than the Camry. But feel free to buy your whitegoods on wheels. I'd choose the car that's more fun to drive.

Originally Posted by borough

A question to you, from 11/2016 what is the point of difference in the Ford lineup compared to VW, Mazda, Hyundai, Renault, Kia, Nissan, etc? My answer is NOTHING.

The Ford badge.

That's all that's needed for me to choose its products over other comparable ones.

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

Because Ford don't listen to their customers in Australia and I would buy an Aussie built Holden or even Toyota before I'd buy any imported car. I just think that it's wrong to choose to send a years wages to another country every time you buy a new car.

It's called freedom of choice. This is a free country, right?

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

Yes I have driven several modern FWD cars lately. The ones that come to mind are: Focus, Mondeo, Elantra, i30, Corolla and Aurion. The Elantra & Focus were the least boring & the Aurion was beautifully smooth and powerful but oh the interior (shame).

So your only criticism is that they are boring?

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

Granted they are better than they used to be but you cannot fight the laws of physics which say harder accelleration shifts the cars weight from the front wheels to the rear ones RWD shifts the weight to the driving wheels FWD shifts it away from the driving wheels the harder you accelerate.

I suspect most people dont give a damn about it.

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

Modern FWD cars compensate for this with traction control etc but in reality all that traction control does is reduce the power going to the drive wheels which effectively slows you down.

All cars now have traction control whether FWD or RWD.

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

I did mention those points in another post and added the potential for more interior room in the FWD car.

A lot of FWD cars still have the floor tunnel as it forms a stiffer structure.

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

Having said that I went from a 4 year old FWD 2.6EFI manual Magna in 1993 & into a brand new RWD 4.0EFI manual EB2 Falcon.

You went from the thirstiest 4 cyl engine ever sold in an Aus car 20 years ago and are comparing it to a relatively newer Falcon and the thirsty 4cyl fwd was still more economical?

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

The Magna used an average of 10.3L/100km the Falcon used 10.7L/100km
Was it the Falcon's RWD that used the small amount of extra fuel? or was it the Falcon's extra weight or much larger and more powerful engine? I'd say the latter two more than the first thing.

No it was the absolute rubbish 2.6L magna used as a comparison.

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

Make that the rest of the world that produces white goods on wheels. Premium brands remain predominantly RWD.

The majority of cars sold in the world are not premium brands.

A bit of trivia...there have been more Toyota Prius sold than the total number of Falcons ever produced....

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

Do the Falcon and Commodore really use that much more fuel than the similar sized Aurion? I don't have the figures in front of me but I doubt that they do. Is the current FWD ford Taurus economical compared to the Falcon? no way.

Yep.

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

Because Ford don't listen to their customers in Australia and I would buy an Aussie built Holden or even Toyota before I'd buy any imported car. I just think that it's wrong to choose to send a years wages to another country every time you buy a new car.

I am with you on that one, I live and work in australia, if you don't employ me and my countrymen then dont exdpect me to buy your product unless you make it ridiculously 3rd world cheapish.

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

The companies that used to manufacture car tyres here don't charge us any less for them now that they are imported from China or Malaysia. As a result I refuse to pay $50 or so more for a "brand name" tyre made in China or Malaysia than I can buy a Maxxis (Chinese) or Kumho (Korean) tyre for yes I stay away from the really cheap Chinese brands.

Maxxis have been one of the best push bike tyre brands for several years now and they are making quite decent car tyres these days.

yep...charge what the market will withstand.

even the premium brands like Mercedes are made in the 3rd world now.

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

So why would I pay a premium for a Thailand built Ford when I could buy a decent Japanese built car for not much more $$ if Australia ceases to produce any cars?

Because the jap car will be made in SE Asia as well.

We send them a truck of iron ore they send it back as a Toyota or kia..

[Jim5_0]

Originally Posted by zilo

So your only criticism is that they are boring?

No not at all. Traction: I tried driving a FWD car out of a steep gravel ramp from a carpark. All of the weight went to the back wheels and the front wheels could not pull the car out of the carpark. I ended up having to reverse up the ramp to get out.

Poor weight distribution which affects handling. Cable operated gear shifts on manuals that end up feeling like a stick in a bucket after a few years of use. Woeful front tyre consumption. Inability to tow a heavy load.

Originally Posted by zilo

All cars now have traction control whether FWD or RWD.

Yes and it has to work a lot less on a RWD car because they don't shift the weight from the driving wheels when you accelerate.

Originally Posted by zilo

A lot of FWD cars still have the floor tunnel as it forms a stiffer structure.

I used the term "potentially more interior space" anyway most FWD cars have a far smaller tunnel than a RWD car.

Originally Posted by zilo

.
You went from the thirstiest 4 cyl engine ever sold in an Aus car 20 years ago and are comparing it to a relatively newer Falcon and the thirsty 4cyl fwd was still more economical?

Nope I went from the second thirstiest, the carby equipped company Magna that I had before the EFI Magna was absolutely woeful on fuel.
Yes the Magna was marginally more economical but it was also a lot less powerful, had two less cylinders and weighed a whole lot less than the EB.

Originally Posted by zilo

No it was the absolute rubbish 2.6L magna used as a comparison.

That particular Magna was not rubbish at all. It gave me 250,000 trouble free KM in it's four years and sat in a carpark for 6 months of that. A mate of mine had a 1989 EA Falcon and went for a drive in the Magna and asked "why does your 1989 Magna with 200,000km on it feel like a newer car than my 1989 Falcon with 80,000km does? it has nowhere near the rattles and squeaks".

The only real issues that I had with the Magna were that it had a reasonable amount of torque driving the wrong wheels so it did a fair bit of grappling for traction and it was not the best handling car.

Originally Posted by zilo

The majority of cars sold in the world are not premium brands.

Correct they are built down to a price and FWD is part of that.

Originally Posted by zilo

Because the jap car will be made in SE Asia as well.

Not all of them will be so you would have to ask the sales person "where are these cars built?" & see if they squirm or not.

I believe that all new cars sold in Australia should be mandated to have a "country of origin" sticker on the windscreen just like they have to have a fuel consumption sticker because too many importers are being sneaky with terms like "German Engineered" when advertising a car from Thailand, South Africa or even China.

Originally Posted by zilo

We send them a truck of iron ore they send it back as a Toyota or kia..

That is where this country fails. We should at least be selling them the steel or the paper not the ore or the woodchips. Neither selling the ore or the woodchips employs too many Aussies.

[69XWGT]

Ford man but way more passionate about the Falcon.
Have an XWGT, owned over a dozen Falcons, plus some other Fords over the years.

The Falcon to me, is Ford.

It's been more Australian than anything Holden have made for over 30 years

In 2016 Ford AU will become just another branch office to another multi national company who's first interest is taking profits back to Nth America.

Australias biggest problem today isn't unions, it's ******** governments that have been selling us out.
Australia is just a warehouse and branch office for nearly every other country.
The profits going offshore are killing us.
Mining, cars, cheap food, clothing, manufacturing, you name it.
Ford will be joining that very group.

In 2016 they will be just another car company flogging their products in this country.
They have shown us what they think, so when it comes to buying new cars, who ever does the best deal on a vehicle I like will get my business and the local manufacturers will be high on the list

[AG3]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

Does ford shutting shop mean no more falcon? Or just an imported falcon?

I remember when holden said no more aussie v8, people cried in the streets but then the LS1 came and the tears dried up pretty quick..

Maybe Falcon might go forward?

No more Exclusive-for-Australia-Falcon. Ford will only loose money developing a car in a segment that even Australians are moving away from.
Domestic sales have dropped dramatically from 75K anually ten years ago to below 20K in recent years.

Falcon enthusiasts love the Falcon, but the general public is moving away from these large cars.

The truth is, its hard to spend money on a low volume model that cannot be sold in many markets because they have no large car segment.
The biggest problem here is the demand in its home market that's keeping it alive is also shrinking.

This is one way to go bankrupt. The only way to survive is to develop global models.
The rumors that have been going around is the next Taurus will be merged with the Falcon. Its expected to be a FWD/AWD model and will most likely share its tech/engineering with smaller higher volume global models like the Mondeo/Fusion and even the Focus.
By some miracle, if Ford decides that the next Taurus/Falcon is a sedan version og the Mustang, then good. (but chances for that are slim)

The next question is why not assemble another (smaller) Ford model in their Australian plant like the Focus which is one of the top selling Ford models in Australia?
Ford already has a plant in Thailand that produces smaller Ford models, their new facilities have the capacity to produce models for export around the Asia-Pacific region. Many of their parts supliers also have regional plants in Thailand (their government is a strong supporter of foreign investors)

Whats keeping the Thai Ford plant alive? They produce B-segment & C-segment cars, diesel pickups & SUVs, models that can be exported to many markets because these compete in popular segments within the region.

[FPV GTHO]

There is no next Taurus/Falcon, Falcon nameplate will be retired.

[FNQracing]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

But I thought you were a 'Car enthusiast'? Has something changed? What happens if Ford in 2016 have a bargain ball tearer? Suddenly become biased against Ford? Its Bizarro World!

Ahh Grasshopper, "Car Enthusiasts" come in all shapes and sizes. Some of us have a thing for early MG's, maybe we can't get enough of Mk1 Escorts, or American Muscle. For no other particular reason other than we like em.

Park a new Ferrari out the front and some won't take a second look. Drive up in a Morris Minor and they may go bow legged.

Just the way it is and always will be.

I for one have an irrational love affair with Aussie RWD (particularly Ford). Doesn't really make sense, but it doesn't have to. I just like em.

[zilo]

Watch them all (the car makers) come back when our dollar dips back to 48 cents to the US dollar...as it undoubtedly will.

They'll all come scurrying back to a country with a stable, fully pliable political system where you don't have to bribe decision makers (as much )

[borough]

Originally Posted by zilo

Watch them all (the car makers) come back when our dollar dips back to 48 cents to the US dollar...as it undoubtedly will.

They'll all come scurrying back to a country with a stable, fully pliable political system where you don't have to bribe decision makers (as much )

That won't happen. Didn't see Nissan come back in 2002 when the $AU was at about 50 US cents. All that will happen is that the imported cars will become more expensive.

[rjk74]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/retra...524-2k6q8.html

[SJG351]

Originally Posted by Jim5_0

Point 1 no they did not contribute to the losses but they also did not stem the losses. I beleve that the losses were sustained by Ford Australia which includes it's import business.

Point 2 there is only one Aussie built small car and no small RWD cars that represent good value for money hence the proliferation of FWD cars due to there being no viable alternative except maybe the AWD Subaru Imprezza which you DO see a fair few of. Does a BMW 1 series cost a similar amount to a Corolla/Cruze/i30/Focus? No but what if it did & it was not such an ugly duckling?

I am a fan of Australian made cars so Ford becoming a importer does not appeal to me.

So everything you buy is Australian? I dont think so, I have tried that and it cost me a bomb. I rate all my purchases as 1AU 2US 3EU and last resort asia. I am a Blue Oval, Ford supporter and the US still make some awesome Fords IMO, the automotive world owes a lot to the US IMO.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by FNQracing

Ahh Grasshopper, "Car Enthusiasts" come in all shapes and sizes. Some of us have a thing for early MG's, maybe we can't get enough of Mk1 Escorts, or American Muscle. For no other particular reason other than we like em.

Park a new Ferrari out the front and some won't take a second look. Drive up in a Morris Minor and they may go bow legged.

Just the way it is and always will be.

I for one have an irrational love affair with Aussie RWD (particularly Ford). Doesn't really make sense, but it doesn't have to. I just like em.

And that is it in a nut shell and the point of have been making for years ..... there are all types of enthusiasts within the motoring industry, some only it for 1 make. Its when some say that Ford enthusiasts are one eyed and blind and say they are not a true "Motoring enthusiast" as if there is something wrong with that is what gets up my goat. It is irrational why many like something over something else and no one has a right to say otherwise.

Being a 'Ford enthusiast' or a 'Lada Niva enthusiast' does not matter. "You are not a true motoring enthusiast" Is the most stupid comment that is made in Forums ....... so???? Do I need to love what others like? Why is that so important? If I want to buy an Audi A5 because I like them .... does that matter to anyone? Am I going to get eggs thrown at me because after buying 20 odd brand new Falcons and Fords I have decided to buy what they wouldn't?

If it wasn't for living through the X series regime I would probably be spending more time and money on something else rather than my cars (Fords) I would put myself in the classification as an X series enthusiast rather than a general Motoring enthusiast. Second I would be a Ford enthusiast ..... and have been standing up for the Ford enthusiast on AFF as much as I can for many years. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being drawn to 1 particular brand or model. I would be the one that walks past a Ferrari every day of the week and head straight for the XA GT Coupe.

And there is nothing wrong with that what so ever.

[Jason[98.EL]]

Im a ford person through and through

will I buy a new falcon before they are gone

yes i will if my position allows me to in 2015/6

if not at that time i will look at what ever else is on offer in the ford camp

I know i dont drive a ford atm but i do own an aussie made falcon

and i love it to bits will never get rid of it

even the wife said we can never get rid of it now and she is even looking for us to get it back on the road

I tought her well

[Fowl Can]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

Does ford shutting shop mean no more falcon? Or just an imported falcon?....

I wouldn't rule out a Ford-something-from-elsewhere possibly copping a Falcon nameplate. If Ford Aust. have their heads screwed on firmly enough to pull the plug because the Falcon & Territory aren't selling well enough, I hope they would also recognize the immense loyalty the model has engendered over the decades.

Look at Nissan: they had to learn the hard way what a foolish move it was to replace the Pulsar with the Tiida; that wheel has so come full circle since

[Jason[98.EL]]

Originally Posted by Fowl Can

I wouldn't rule out a Ford-something-from-elsewhere possibly copping a Falcon nameplate. If Ford Aust. have their heads screwed on firmly enough to pull the plug because the Falcon & Territory aren't selling well enough, I hope they would also recognize the immense loyalty the model has engendered over the decades.

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA
Does ford shutting shop mean no more falcon? Or just an imported falcon?....

There will be no Falcon from the end of 2016 FORD have said the name will be retired they are not sure on the terry name though

[Fowl Can]

Originally Posted by Jason[98.EL]

There will be no Falcon from the end of 2016 FORD have said the name will be retired....

Maybe so, but there will never be a carbon tax under any Garv Mint of mine. Talk is cheap.

[ryeman]

The yanks plays us on a break, they own our foreign policy and the talk that they 'value' OUR relationship is just the sort of 'glowing endorsement' that we fall for ever time. We're just a client state, with no vision of being anything but a quarry. We don't value add, the private sector can make a quick buck without any long term vision, why bother!