Supercar scare - Page 3

Nikked · 29-01-2012, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

not the,, same an LJ... GTR-XU2
is a lot lighter than the SLR 5000 or A9X

Im actually lead to beleive that XU-2 was never ment to be a LJ, but a name thrown about as holden was developing the SL/R 5000...

The V8 LJ was never intended to be called the XU-2...

XU-1 was accually GM-H production code for the bathurst toranas, and in a marketing ace, stuck Xu-1 stickers on the side of the GTR's...

XU-3 was also used as a production code...

4stanger · 29-01-2012, 09:42 PM

Pictures here on an old torana forum of the xu2, yes it was based on the LH body shell.
http://www.gmh-torana.com.au/forums/...hind-the-xu-2/

Nikked · 29-01-2012, 09:44 PM

Yep...

LJ never was going to be XU-2

Bossxr8 · 29-01-2012, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

it seems the rules were always going to change for 1973. because the cars were no longer going to be series production, then the manufacturers no longer had the need to build them
as others have suggested adr27a? would have made it difficult to continue with those cars

i doubt they would have gone to big blocks. I believe moff tried a big block in his mustang, but the 302 was quicker because the 302 weighed less and therefore made the car turn in better

It was a 351 Clevo he tried, a much heavier engine than a 302 Boss, and he didn't like the way it altered the handling balance having the extra weight over the nose.

Ford would have trialled a big block or 2 in HO's, but the extra weight over the nose wouldn't have done it too many favours. Al Turner also had a proposal to do a V8 Cortina, but it was rejected by management pretty early in the piece.

gtxb67 · 29-01-2012, 09:57 PM

that link suggests that the first v8 torana was going to be based on the lj body shape
i have heard both sides - that the xu-2 was going to be the lh - and that 3 xu-1 v8's were built and then destroyed. leo prunea? the holden designer of the time told street machine, that they had built 3 xu-1 v8s . . . just as the text beside the yellow "xu-2" in that link suggested

i fail to see how that yellow car was a prototype for the xu-2. the so called xu-2 was being built in 72 and that yellow car's body (lh) was released 2 years later. why make a prototype of a car, 2 years before it is actually made

Nikked · 30-01-2012, 07:23 AM

No one is sayin there was no V8 LJ...Harr Firth built them and holden destroyed them.

But the terminology is wrong...with Xu-1 the internal product code for LC-LJ bathurst spec GTR's...and XU-2 holdens LH-LX program.

**russellw** · 30-01-2012, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Blooded

I thought the Phase IV was gonna get 4 wheel discs?

You would have thought so but the four built didn't - the brakes were a carry over but with improved cooling (mostly thanks to the larger wheels). As 4 wheel disks didn't appear for another full model cycle on the GT that would seem to confirm it not being part of Phase IV plans.

Cheers
Russ

aussie muscle · 30-01-2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Blooded

Don't shoot me down as I'm a massive fan of the XY's, but you have to wonder if it would have become the cult hero it is without the supercar scare,

they XY was already a hero, phase 4 would have been for the XA.

2011G6E · 30-01-2012, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

"old man emu" In the song, the emu was quiker then the Kangaroo...

And Holdens 'Old man emu' was to be a 400ci monaro...

image

image

The blue one is a clay styling mock up for proposal...and the yellow one ment to be fitted with a 400ci...with the 350/z to through Ford off the sent.

In the end, it (the cost) wasn't justified, and holden stuck with the XU-1

Yep, I remember the article with those cars in it. There was also a picture of a factory mock-up (similar to the top photo of Old Man Emu) of an LH which acually had "XU-2" on the front guard.
I thought it was clever naming it Old Man Emu as well...apparently the advertising jingle was worked out and everything...it was to be the classic song but instead of "run the pants off a kangaroo" it was to be changed to "run the pants off a Super roo"...clever!

GT450 · 30-01-2012, 01:23 PM

Inevitably GMH lied they produced the A9x and the let PB go about developing their cars under the HDT banner so as not be seen as directly involved ( they were ). Ford restarted producing years later and Chrysler unfortunately became defunct. It was great era but todays cars would leave all the so called supercars floundering. At what stage will they call a halt this time 350Kw 400Kw ?? I wonder.
GT450

outback_ute · 30-01-2012, 02:24 PM

Interesting thread! mik's earlier comment about the rate at which car performance had increased is an important one I think, plenty of people who had never driven a car capable of more than 80mph would be horrified at the prospect of sharing the road with something capable of twice as much.

Its interesting to read Moby Vic's comments too - yes individual politicians may not get much reaction but when tens of thousands of government fleet sales are held to ransom that got the car companies' attention.

Also were there many US cars of the day that would do 140mph plus? It seems that most of the muscle cars had low diff ratios and topped out at 130 or so, I suppose a taller diff was an option.

Nikked · 30-01-2012, 04:59 PM

the most iintersting thing is that the "supercar scare" and the infamous article did nothing to stop the big 3...

Holden destroyed the 3 V8 LJ's, and told the others to do the same...but still went ahead and built the V8 bathurst special LH/LX torries...

Ford Canned the Phase 4 after one was quitely built, but still homolgated "special bathurst parts" under the RPO83 option...right up untill the XC 500 GS "evo" and Cobra bathurst models, both homolgating parts to keep the falcon competitive.

Chrysler still released the V8 charger, and the E49 charger was avaiable for bathurst...

Supercar scare? What supercar scare?

burnz · 30-01-2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

the most iintersting thing is that the "supercar scare" and the infamous article did nothing to stop the big 3...

Holden destroyed the 3 V8 LJ's, and told the others to do the same...but still went ahead and built the V8 bathurst special LH/LX torries...

Ford Canned the Phase 4 after one was quitely built, but still homolgated "special bathurst parts" under the RPO83 option...right up untill the XC 500 GS "evo" and Cobra bathurst models, both homolgating parts to keep the falcon competitive.

Chrysler still released the V8 charger, and the E49 charger was avaiable for bathurst...

Supercar scare? What supercar scare?

the jury is still out on wheather holden actually destoyed "all" the V8 LJ..

it's rumored that harry firth still had the "strike me pink" coloured torrie.
the two ice blue one's are rumored to be destoyed.

4stanger · 30-01-2012, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

the most iintersting thing is that the "supercar scare" and the infamous article did nothing to stop the big 3...

Holden destroyed the 3 V8 LJ's, and told the others to do the same...but still went ahead and built the V8 bathurst special LH/LX torries...

Ford Canned the Phase 4 after one was quitely built, but still homolgated "special bathurst parts" under the RPO83 option...right up untill the XC 500 GS "evo" and Cobra bathurst models, both homolgating parts to keep the falcon competitive.

Chrysler still released the V8 charger, and the E49 charger was avaiable for bathurst...

Supercar scare? What supercar scare?

Good point Nikked.
Fact- 351 Falcons were still available and got some good track results in 73 & 74!
Fact- valiant charger got it's 340, but in auto form in the e55 version limited run I believe, if you wanted a v8 charger after that limited run, 318 & some 360s were available, enough said there!
Fact- torana got its v8, who cares if the xu2 was lj or lh, leave that rubbish for the holden forums please!

gtxb67 · 30-01-2012, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

No one is sayin there was no V8 LJ...Harr Firth built them and holden destroyed them.

But the terminology is wrong...with Xu-1 the internal product code for LC-LJ bathurst spec GTR's...and XU-2 holdens LH-LX program.

when people talk about the xu-2, many people - including the author of one of the articles in this thread and it seems people who have posted in this thread think of the torana v8 that was part of the supercar superscare. many poeple believe that the lh torana was the car involved in it - obviously that was not the case. certainly holden's plans were thrown into dissaray as ford's were, and did not just continue with the car as planned, as some throughout the last 40 years have claimed

you are correct with the xu-2 code name being used for the lh. i believe it was the code name for the slr5000 only. having said that (and not disputing what you have posted), i would think that the yellow lh in the pic is not an xu-2 as it seems to be claimed as. certainly not a production model anyway - it might be similar to the 400ci hq, and even the xc gt that the companies dabbled with but did not produce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It was a 351 Clevo he tried, a much heavier engine than a 302 Boss, and he didn't like the way it altered the handling balance having the extra weight over the nose.

Ford would have trialled a big block or 2 in HO's, but the extra weight over the nose wouldn't have done it too many favours. Al Turner also had a proposal to do a V8 Cortina, but it was rejected by management pretty early in the piece.

you are probably right - i cannot find anything at present regarding a big block, and i think i can remember it being a 351 now as well. i say probably, but you probably know you are right

4stanger · 30-01-2012, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

that link suggests that the first v8 torana was going to be based on the lj body shape
i have heard both sides - that the xu-2 was going to be the lh - and that 3 xu-1 v8's were built and then destroyed. leo prunea? the holden designer of the time told street machine, that they had built 3 xu-1 v8s . . . just as the text beside the yellow "xu-2" in that link suggested

i fail to see how that yellow car was a prototype for the xu-2. the so called xu-2 was being built in 72 and that yellow car's body (lh) was released 2 years later. why make a prototype of a car, 2 years before it is actually made

Come on mate.
Are you giving holden engineers credit that they designed this yellow xu2 in less than 2 years!
I have seen photos off prototypes in magazines (couldn't be bothered scanning and uploading) of XD falcon clay model prototypes with the date on the prototype as 1976!
These shells the manufacturers design & make (especially with the technology they had back then), would have needed a couple of years to design.
And who knows (or who cares!!!) the engineers may have put the xu2 decal on it, to take a photo in their lunch break, for a stir to a future internet forum

gtxb67 · 30-01-2012, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arnaldo

Come on mate.
Are you giving holden engineers credit that they designed this yellow xu2 in less than 2 years!
I have seen photos off prototypes in magazines (couldn't be bothered scanning and uploading) of XD falcon clay model prototypes with the date on the prototype as 1976!
These shells the manufacturers design & make (especially with the technology they had back then), would have needed a couple of years to design.
And who knows (or who cares!!!) the engineers may have put the xu2 decal on it, to take a photo in their lunch break, for a stir to a future internet forum

the car most consider an xu-2 was due to be released in 1972 to race at bathurst in 1972. the car pictured was an lh. the lh range was released in 74 - you do the math
a prototype of a potential lh - maybe. but the car that was involved in the supercar superscare

Blue Roo · 30-01-2012, 08:16 PM

If Ford Australia put a V8 into the Capri like Ford South Africa did and was very successful. Ford would have beaten any Torana on race day.

4stanger · 30-01-2012, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

the car most consider an xu-2 was due to be released in 1972 to race at bathurst in 1972.

With the news paper reports coming out in June/July 1972 of xu2 v8 torana, to make a first Sunday in October race would have been a big effort to do, in such a short timeframe, I'm not saying it would have been impossible.
I might go and join a holden forum now and discuss this more.
You may want to do the same?

Moby Vic · 30-01-2012, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Also were there many US cars of the day that would do 140mph plus? It seems that most of the muscle cars had low diff ratios and topped out at 130 or so, I suppose a taller diff was an option.

Well, there were certainly cars that made the power to do that, but now that you mention it, most of them probably were not geared that way from the factory.

And as I said before, American sedans wouldn't be able to do that, hence the supremacy of the Falcon.

But I would think a Corvette, GTO, Road Runner, etc. with highway gearing could make that. I'll have to look up some figures later.

MethodX · 31-01-2012, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

If Ford Australia put a V8 into the Capri like Ford South Africa did and was very successful. Ford would have beaten any Torana on race day.

Never know about that, would have been a pretty even thing.

MethodX · 31-01-2012, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arnaldo

With the news paper reports coming out in June/July 1972 of xu2 v8 torana, to make a first Sunday in October race would have been a big effort to do, in such a short timeframe, I'm not saying it would have been impossible.
I might go and join a holden forum now and discuss this more.
You may want to do the same?

Torana's and Monaro's are part of Aus muscle car culture. We should appreciate all the cars from the big 3.

The LJ was simply going to be called V8 XU-1 from what ive read.
XU2 was proposed for the LH, as seen by that decal pic thats floating around.

Blue Roo · 31-01-2012, 07:41 PM

According to Howard Marsden. The V8 LJ Torana would have been a good sprint car. But how ever it would destory it self on the long distance races like Bathurst, due to the extra stress on the Drive Train, Brakes, Suspension and the extra weight of the V8 at the front of the car which would have thrown the balance out.

Blue Roo · 31-01-2012, 07:57 PM

Ford would have won at Bathurst in 72 with the Phase 4 as it would have been well developed. Lessons learned from the Phase 3. The only the threat would have been if Chrysler put the 340ci v8 in the Charger with a 4 speed.

Cobramad · 31-01-2012, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

If Ford Australia put a V8 into the Capri like Ford South Africa did and was very successful. Ford would have beaten any Torana on race day.

The Basil Green built 289 V8 Capri won all but one round of the Saloon Car Championship and was then banned from further competition. Its creation was sanctioned by Ford, who cleverly let someone else do the job for them.
i suppose that vehicle would have been the SA equivalent of a "Supercar", minus the scare.

Nikked · 31-01-2012, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

Ford would have won at Bathurst in 72 with the Phase 4 as it would have been well developed.

I don't think it would have been that easy...

flappist · 31-01-2012, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

Ford would have won at Bathurst in 72 with the Phase 4 as it would have been well developed. Lessons learned from the Phase 3. The only the threat would have been if Chrysler put the 340ci v8 in the Charger with a 4 speed.

Yeh it would not have poured with rain washing out the track and giving an advantage to smaller, less powerful and lighter cars if the Phase 4 had competed......

gtxb67 · 31-01-2012, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Yeh it would not have poured with rain washing out the track and giving an advantage to smaller, less powerful and lighter cars if the Phase 4 had competed......

it still would have rained, but if holden were running the xu-1 v8, the the result may have been different

for sure, it would have still been a difficult race, if the phase 4 was up against the 6 cyl xu-1

Nikked · 31-01-2012, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Yeh it would not have poured with rain washing out the track and giving an advantage to smaller, less powerful and lighter cars if the Phase 4 had competed......

Thats was the Phase 4's secret technology...shhh

Saraco · 31-01-2012, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobramad

The Basil Green built 289 V8 Capri won all but one round of the Saloon Car Championship and was then banned from further competition. Its creation was sanctioned by Ford, who cleverly let someone else do the job for them.
i suppose that vehicle would have been the SA equivalent of a "Supercar", minus the scare.

If you think the Perana Capri was the most radical South African performance car...you're wrong! That honour goes to the frightening, white knuckle driving, Can Am Firenza. (GM RSA product) These cars were about the same size as an early HB Holden Torana, (but better looking) they were powered by, 302 Chevrolet small blocks (DZ code, same as the '68/'69 Z/28 Chevrolet Camaro) they also had a Holley 4 barrel,solid cam and aluminium hi-rise intake and would make any good driver, s#%t himself, because of their diabolical power to weight ratio! P.S.I'm a Ford man, through and through, but....in this case, GM has the goods!