Driving while talking on a mobile phone

[aussiblue]

Unfortunately mobile phone caused road deaths are not yet separately collected (and thus not yet separately reported) by the ABS.

Nonetheless, there are some related interesting Australian case studies including this WA one:


Role of mobile phones in motor vehicle crashes resulting in hospital attendance: a case-crossover study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1188107/

Suzanne P McEvoy, senior research fellow,1 Mark R Stevenson, professor of injury prevention,1 Anne T McCartt, vice president, research,2 Mark Woodward, professor of biostatistics,1 Claire Haworth, research nurse,3 Peter Palamara, senior research officer,3 and Rina Cercarelli, senior research fellow3

Objectives:
To explore the effect of drivers' use of mobile (cell) phones on road safety.

Design: A case-crossover study.Setting Perth, Western Australia.Participants 456 drivers aged ≥ 17 years who owned or used mobile phones and had been involved in road crashes necessitating hospital attendance between April 2002 and July 2004.

Main outcome:

measure Driver's use of mobile phone at estimated time of crash and on trips at the same time of day in the week before the crash. Interviews with drivers in hospital and phone company's records of phone use.Results Driver's use of a mobile phone up to 10 minutes before a crash was associated with a fourfold increased likelihood of crashing (odds ratio 4.1, 95% confidence interval 2.2 to 7.7, P < 0.001). Risk was raised irrespective of whether or not a hands-free device was used (hands-free: 3.8, 1.8 to 8.0, P < 0.001; hand held: 4.9, 1.6 to 15.5, P = 0.003). Increased risk was similar in men and women and in drivers aged ≥ 30 and < 30 years. A third (n = 21) of calls before crashes and on trips during the previous week were reportedly on hand held phones.

Conclusions: When drivers use a mobile phone there is an increased likelihood of a crash resulting in injury. Using a hands-free phone is not any safer.

There is also road deaths and injury metadata from overseas that it is reasonable to assume equally applies in Australia. eg Cellular phones and fatal traffic collions.
Violanti JM. Rochester Institute of Technology

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

And of course as soon as you put on an emergency services shirt you are instantly safe talking on a phone even though in many cases you are actually concentrating of your two way radio, things happening outside in all directions and other events within your vehicle.

We are only allowed to do this when there is an operational or clinical urgency to do so and pulling over is not possible as covered by our code of conduct.

Added to that we have to do a lot more driver training and have to reach a higher standard than the average Joe.

As for why is it illegal? Because it is an additional distraction that is not required, no one except the emergency services absolutely use a mobile phone while driving, the rest can pull over or call them back, simple.

As for the manual car thing, your hand is on the gear lever for a couple of seconds, your hand is on the phone for much more. Anyone at risk of running off the road changing gear should hand their license in now.

[aussiblue]

Also see

Cell Phone and Navigation System-Related Crashes in Japan Year Cell Phones Navigation Systems Injuries Deaths Injuries Deaths here http://www.umich.edu/~driving/public...00-01-C008.pdf and the table showing celphone and navigation system caused road injuries and fatalities in Japan.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by HP4ME

i don't have an internet site to quote.....

I will just use some good old fashioned thinking, be it right or wrong.

talking on the mobile phone while driving is like watching your little kid play near the water at the beach while someone is talking to you.... no matter what, nothing can distract you from watching and protecting your child, there has to be some kind of subconscious safety mechanism in there that keeps you switched on in both cases.

you can feel both of those sensations and they feel the same everytime you do it, it is much deeper than published materials.

then along come a buxom woman with the N/slip happening, all the while your child is treading water..

[ThaFlash]

when abs release that data we can talk again, until then it is not safe to assume anything equally applies to australia because if it were equal we would have the reasonably safe to assume assumption in stats or data and by that alone makes the assumption unreasonable.

[flappist]

Well it seems two things are extremely obvious:

1) Almost everyone is thoroughly convinced that driving while talking on the phone is dangerous and it is a good thing that it is illegal.

2) Almost no one can connect the concept "buy this car so you can legally make phone calls while driving regardless of how dangerous it is" as possibly sending a wrong message.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

As for the manual car thing, your hand is on the gear lever for a couple of seconds, your hand is on the phone for much more. Anyone at risk of running off the road changing gear should hand their license in now.

Most manual drivers have their hand on the lever all the time? I do.

[galaxy xr8]

Taxi driver's must seem to think that they are imune to this rule, as we had a driver in Brisbane on Wed talking on his phone while driving us into the CBD, nearly ran into a road barrier while talking,
Then in Adelaide, another one answering a call, twice and talking for a while, then another driver answering his phone and talking while taking us to the Airport.

[aussiblue]

The scary thing from and Australian study is that shows that drunk drivers are also more likely to undertake other risky driving activity including using their mobile phone while driving.

http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/pub...t17/rr17g.html

So this might imply that the person you see driving while using their mobile is also more likely to be drunk. A wonderful combination.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by HP4ME

Accidents happen all the time, let's get to the stat that counts, how many people die from using a mobile phone while driving and specifically in Australia.

I would say more people probably have died from being shot by a gun or riding a motorcycle in victoria.

Unless you have that vital stat Flappist wins the argument hands down.

I doubt he wins hands down.

As said there aren't seperate stats kept like there is for seat belts and drink driving. besides how could you prove someone caused an accident whilst driving, 1. They will deny it and 2. They will drop the phone.

There is plenty of antecdotal evidence (some posters have posted up links already in this debate here) to support the case for mobile phones causing drivers to be inattentive.

I don't believe I have seen anything thats supports that mobile phone users whilst driving aren't a danger, if you have please enlighten the rest of us.

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

The scary thing from and Australian study is that shows that drunk drivers are also more likely to undertake other risky driving activity including using their mobile phone while driving.

http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/pub...t17/rr17g.html

So this might imply that the person you see driving while using their mobile is also more likely to be drunk. A wonderful combination.

I think becoming a member of fordforums should include some kind of basic stat course. All that would suggest is that if you seen 100 people driving drunk and 100 people driving completely sober, more of the drunks would be using their phones. There is a difference between that and mobile phone users being more likely to be drunk.

I agree with your sentiment though.

[mik]

you can spout all the laws you like, some people are just not switched on and will crash regardless.

[aussiblue]

think becoming a member of fordforums should include some kind of basic stat course. All that would suggest is that if you seen 100 people driving drunk and 100 people driving completely sober, more of the drunks would be using their phones. There is a difference between that and mobile phone users being more likely to be drunk.

Actually I have done a stats courses to post grad level at UWA and yes if drunks are more likely to use a mobile phone while driving it will also mean there will be some %age increase (however small and I suspect of the order of less than 1%) in the likelihood that a driver observed using a mobile phone is drunk.

To look at it more simply if drunk drivers are more likely to use a mobile phone while driving, there is greater intersection between the two sets "drunk drivers" and "drivers using mobile phones" than the set "drunk drivers" and "drivers not using mobile phone" . The intersection between the two sets "drunk drivers" and "drivers using mobile phones" is the likelihood that a driver using a mobile phone is drunk and it is greater that the intersection between sets "sober drivers" and "drivers using mobile phones".

Or using your example of 100 people driving drunk and 100 people driving completely sober, and more of the drunks would be using their phones. If 50 of the drunks were using the mobile phone and 20 of the sober people were it would mean that there would be a 50 in 70 chance that an observed mobile phone user was a drunk driver.

It's not dissimilar to the fact that young people are more likely to use a mobile phone while driving and the result that therefore someone observed using a mobile phone while driving is more likely to be young.

It simply means that there is a slight %age increase in the likelihood that a driver observed using a mobile phone is drunk over other observed road users not using a mobile phone. Not as much a give-a-way as the other related risky behaviours like the dangerous speeding, weaving or wandering but still a reason for caution.

[GreenR]

I agree that in some cases, NOT ALL, that a car accident can be partly caused by the driver being on the phone engaged in conversation. Whether this be from one hand juggling the phone while only one hand on the wheel (impeding the drivers ability to quickly turn the steering wheel in case of emergency)... this is only my personal opinion and not based on any scientific evidence .

HOWEVER I also believe and not to offend anyone here, or start any arguments involving personal stories, it is over dramatized the issue of talking on a mobile phone can kill people, cause accidents etc.

I am guilty of one to talk on the phone with it sitting in my lap on loudspeaker. However what I find is if more concentration is required to drive eg. turning, overtaking, strong traffic I will stop the conversation until I feel comfortable talking again because less concentration is required on driving.
Everybody is different and talking on phones can be more dangerous for one individual than another. Maybe some people can just multitask better and that's why they have never had any trouble talking on phones while driving.

Unfortunately due to the modern era of technology we live in, for those who disagree with mobile phones in the car I think it isn't going to stop. And if it became law and was banned all together people would still do it.
To answer your question flappist, the reason car companies are marketing phone use is because technically it is not illegal to use their factory phone integration therefore hoping more people will buy them knowing they can't get into trouble. YES it is most likely sending out the wrong message and they still maybe just as dangerous even if it is "legal" but at the end of the day they are trying to make money and that is priority number 1 for any business

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by HP4ME

when abs release that data we can talk again, until then it is not safe to assume anything equally applies to australia because if it were equal we would have the reasonably safe to assume assumption in stats or data and by that alone makes the assumption unreasonable.

After reading this I can only assume your in a management position. If your not you should be, brilliant 'management speak'.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Most manual drivers have their hand on the lever all the time? I do.

And I am sure your driving instructor explained there is no need to and it is a terrible driving habit.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Most manual drivers have their hand on the lever all the time? I do.

Do you also leave your foot rest on the clutch??

[Auslandau]

Love it how 'stats' can be found to justify laws. There are a mountain of things that would be more dangerous than talking on you mobile ....... its just that these stats have to be published to justify the exhistance of a law.

So .... all those reporting these stats ...... where do these things sit which I believe are more dangerous to ones lifespan while driving?

Eating a Big Mac?
Trying to find the last few fries at the bottom of the Macca's bag?
Opening a bottle of water?
Having just picked up that large cup of bloody hot coffee through the drive through?
Finding that song on the CD ..... or just finding that CD in the bottom of the console or glovebox?
Having a ciggie?
Butting out the ciggie?
Opening a new packet of ciggies?
Finding the ciggies in the first place?
Lighting the damn thing with the air conditioner on and window down?
Putting the water bottle in the bottle holder?
Finding the percect setting on the dual climate control?
Adjusting your seat while driving?
Opening a warm can of coke?
Having an arguement with the spouse?
Telling the kids in the back "If I have to pull this car over you will all get such a hiding!"?
Dropping your Jeff Mint and try to find it from under the seat?
Talking on the CB?
Trying to listen on the bluetooth?
Trying to work out why the handsfree isn't bloody working again?
Looking at your GPS as you do not believe it isnt working?
Checking your speed to make sure you are not 3k's over?
Hitting the brakes at Wellington Rd, just in case?
Changing the DVD so the kiddies can have something to watch and stop screaming at each other?
Looking at the accident on the other side of the freeway?
Having a persistent scratch?
Looking for a street knowing its hear somewhere while driving along Princes Hwy.
Talking handsfree in a heated discussion with the Mrs about the inlaws coming over to stay?
A 6 hour road trip with no breaks?
Talking on the mobile but instead of watching the road .... looking out for police cars?

And about a billion more ....... texting I can really understand ..... but some things are easy to legislate, seem like the right thing and are good for the coffers. As for people meandering when talking on the phone, some people should not have there license and wouldn't matter if they were on the phone or not, they just should simply not be on the road.

[damo76]

There are a lot of idiots on the road, a lot of people who CANT GET the hang of driving(or the technique) annd are dangerous at the best of times, then they talk on the phone too, god help us

[fmc351]

Tell you what, run up the **** of a car and tell them you were fiddling with the stereo. It happens, but not as much as people on phones apparently, thats one reason mobile phone laws exist and specific laws for stereos dont.

There are catch all laws that cover the other stuff. For example driving without due care and attention, dangerous driving, reckless driving. Different states will have different names but essentially they are similar enough. Im sure theres more. Eat a big mac and smash, see what happens when you tell that to the coppers.


And Ive said it before, if you cant drive and check the speedo safely, catch the bus, youre useless.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by flappist

A comment was made about flying by someone who is not a pilot and a question was asked of someone who is.

I gave an answer based on my personal experience flying.

Then you come up with a comment about "the tower".

If you actually had any idea you would know that the majority of airports in Australia do not have towers nor controlled airspace.

You would also know that flying in IMC will only get you to circuit entry or the minima on a controlled approach. If are not visual by then you can't land whether or not you are on the phone.

In QLD there are towers at Cooly, Bris, Archerfield, Amberly, Maroochydore, Rocky, Mackay, Townsville & Cairns.

There are over 100 airports in QLD as well as many, many more ALAs.....

But this thread is about the advertising of the ability to make phone calls in new model cars when the general consensus is that talking on the phone while driving is dangerous.

The point is NOT whether or not talking on a phone is dangerous it is IF talking is dangerous then why are these products being advertised....

My two comments were separate. My post to you had nothing to do with planes.

I took the plane comment to be commercial ie: Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin etc, as that would be the most common theme for most people. Im not a pilot, but Id be pretty sure they wouldnt be answering mobiles on landing, if at all.

[Jim Goose]

Im not a pilot, but Id be pretty sure they wouldnt be answering mobiles on landing, if at all.

Nope they wouldnt.... I knew what you meant at least!

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by fmc351

And Ive said it before, if you cant drive and check the speedo safely, catch the bus, youre useless.

Theoretically if you cannot do any of the above and drive safely you shouldn't have a license but they hand them out to all and sundry with an absolute minimum of testing. I have had my license for a bloody long time and have never been tested in over 20 years. That scares me more than some of the morons out there operating a vehicle full stop .... whether he is talking on the phone or pretending to know how to operate a car safely doesn't matter ..... they just shouldn't be there in the first place. Some people cannot walk and chew but are allowed to drive a car. That is the problem, first and foremost.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by fmc351

My two comments were separate. My post to you had nothing to do with planes.

I took the plane comment to be commercial ie: Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin etc, as that would be the most common theme for most people. Im not a pilot, but Id be pretty sure they wouldnt be answering mobiles on landing, if at all.

But has it got to do with advertising of new small cars that can make phone calls legally while driving?

[WMD351]

Hands free technology is legal, just like cigarettes.
Should it/they be? That's an entirely different thing.

[blueluvr]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

So .... all those reporting these stats ...... where do these things sit which I believe are more dangerous to ones lifespan while driving?

Eating a Big Mac?
Trying to find the last few fries at the bottom of the Macca's bag?
Opening a bottle of water?
Having just picked up that large cup of bloody hot coffee through the drive through?
Finding that song on the CD ..... or just finding that CD in the bottom of the console or glovebox?
Having a ciggie?
Butting out the ciggie?
Opening a new packet of ciggies?
Finding the ciggies in the first place?
Lighting the damn thing with the air conditioner on and window down?
Putting the water bottle in the bottle holder?
Finding the percect setting on the dual climate control?
Adjusting your seat while driving?
Opening a warm can of coke?
Having an arguement with the spouse?
Telling the kids in the back "If I have to pull this car over you will all get such a hiding!"?
Dropping your Jeff Mint and try to find it from under the seat?
Talking on the CB?
Trying to listen on the bluetooth?
Trying to work out why the handsfree isn't bloody working again?
Looking at your GPS as you do not believe it isnt working?
Checking your speed to make sure you are not 3k's over?
Hitting the brakes at Wellington Rd, just in case?
Changing the DVD so the kiddies can have something to watch and stop screaming at each other?
Looking at the accident on the other side of the freeway?
Having a persistent scratch?
Looking for a street knowing its hear somewhere while driving along Princes Hwy.
Talking handsfree in a heated discussion with the Mrs about the inlaws coming over to stay?
A 6 hour road trip with no breaks?
Talking on the mobile but instead of watching the road .... looking out for police cars?

How about 5 minutes after you join the freeway, you get some serious rumbles in the lower parts of your food factory and you are trying to hold in that dodgy vindaloo you had the night before until the servo 15 minutes up the road, and it gets that bad you are clenching so tight you could cut a Carillo rod in half...... Now if anything is a driving distraction, THAT is!




I made it btw........just

[JC]

Driving and doing ANYTHING else is a distraction. Some to a lesser degree than others. Phones are probably the worst distraction - if you are using a phone in one hand, and you drive a manual, how many hands do you have on the steering wheel when changing gears (assuming you keep the phone hand firmly planted to the side of your head)?

The varying range of idiots I see on the roads on a daily basis all have one thing in common; at the time they drifted lanes, or are doing 20km less than posted limit etc, they were/are on the phone. I usually give them a blast with my horn as I go past them, and I reckon 8 out of 10 hang up straight away and get back to driving. The other 2, I don't care what they do as I leave them behind.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Theoretically if you cannot do any of the above and drive safely you shouldn't have a license but they hand them out to all and sundry with an absolute minimum of testing. I have had my license for a bloody long time and have never been tested in over 20 years. That scares me more than some of the morons out there operating a vehicle full stop .... whether he is talking on the phone or pretending to know how to operate a car safely doesn't matter ..... they just shouldn't be there in the first place. Some people cannot walk and chew but are allowed to drive a car. That is the problem, first and foremost.

I couldnt agree more in theory. In reality though, the road network is paid for by all tax payers. As such, they should be entitled to drive on said roads as long as they meet a set of standards. But to what competence level?

Jamie Whincup could suggest his level of competence an he could have a legitimate argument in the same sense as any here. I doubt many on here could meet that standard, otherwise they'd be driving for 888. I have no doubt many will claim they could, they just never get the breaks to prove it. 9/10 of his standard, is a fail by his measure.

Governments have to set a minimum standard to meet, it must be to some extent to meet the lowest common denominator, and they do. There is no party that could win an election with a plan that fails what? 30% of motorists, 50? We live in a society, that society benefits us by providing things that we couldnt have if we had to provide them ourselves, like trillion dollar road networks. Dont know about you, but I havent got a spare trillion or two laying around to build my own roads. Society will always have highly skilled, moderately skilled and lower skilled participants, and everything in between. It must cater to the majority not simply the best. It must also represent the minorities as a government that represents all its constituents.

The balance is hard to find and will never make everyone happy.

[vztrt]

Flappist I understand your thread.

But it seems that our advertising laws are regulated as seen fit and not in a uniform manor.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by flappist

But has it got to do with advertising of new small cars that can make phone calls legally while driving?

I havent seen the ad, but IIRC you stated the car has phone technology, ie: the phone connected to it? Unless the driver is holding the phone and making the call, I dont see how it defies any current law. But I wasnt even going there as I hadnt seen the ad.

I was directly asking about, one day you post the government sticks its nose in everything, and the next it isnt sticking it in enough. I just wondered how bored you are?