driving lights = 3points - Page 3

Keepleft · 01-07-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOCO XP

Revenue raising rubbish. Lets some some legislation fall upon manufacturers to get some sort of standardisation for headlight aim/intensity/positioning.

See;
AUSTRALIAN DESIGN RULES (ADR) (new vehicle entry).
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa...ign/index.aspx

NATIONAL VEHICLE STANDARDS (NVS) (post market).
http://www.ntc.gov.au/ViewPage.aspx?documentid=00016

ADR's are harmonising with the 'Global Technical Regulations' @ UNECE. Australia tends to "dumb-down" a few of these via its ADR process.
http://www.unece.org/trans/main/welcwp29.htm

Additional dumbing-down takes place at Australian Standards level, by our various state road staff employees, and Monash souls:-) who create 'unique in the world' road traffic signs and road markings, poor freeway lane-start and end treatments etc and so on. See also AUSROADS for more evidence local our 'expertise'! Australia you see loves duplication by its own means of already internationally recognised outcome>> it keeps some hangers-on locally employed!

We then try and impress our overseas friends with our 'great knowledge':-
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety...onference.html

Signal to RTA - you face organisational dismemberment, guaranteed.

ROAD RULES on the other hand simply govern how we use the motor car and ALL its delightful functions, apparently to the betterment of all:-))
http://www.ntc.gov.au/ViewPage.aspx?documentid=00794

Jack91 · 01-07-2009, 02:08 PM

This thread needs a poll.

Zed7fiddy · 01-07-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

One can see low-beam just as well, often 'better' than front fogs.

Tell this to the gentleman that hit me whilst i was on the bike, now, i coudl dress my bike up in all kinds of lights, he will see me, he will stop, he may be dazzled, but i can still walk properly, im not off work, my bike doesnt need to be repaired, police time isnt wasted, the ambos can deal with more pressing issues, and insurance premiums dont go up.

You have your point on a legal lever KL, but in terms of practicality your baning your head against a wall here, you can thow ADR's at me all you like, i will continue to use fog/driving lights whatever fancy name they have for them these days.

I have a fender emilinator, a carbon fibre exhaust, no number plate light, and only one mirror on my bike, all defectable items, but neither was the cause of my accident, some defectable items are pure revenue raisers, seriously, shoudl we even go through the point that polcie can book people for leaving their keys int he ignition or for having a empy windscreen washer bottle, if these arent jsut trumped up charges for revenue reasons i dont know what is.

Keepleft · 01-07-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 67-FKD

Tell this to the gentleman that hit me whilst i was on the bike, now, i could dress my bike up in all kinds of lights, he will see me, he will stop, he may be dazzled, but i can still walk properly, im not off work, my bike doesn't need to be repaired, police time isn't wasted, the ambos can deal with more pressing issues, and insurance premiums dont go up.

Agreed, some people are determined to kill you 'accidentally'. See and be seen comes into it.

Quote:

You have your point on a legal lever KL, but in terms of practicality your banging your head against a wall here, you can thow ADR's at me all you like, i will continue to use fog/driving lights whatever fancy name they have for them these days.

a) The ADR etc reference above was for the other poster above:-)
b) Fogs, call em what they are, unless the only operate when the headlight switch is on high-beam, then its driving lamp. Terminology is important, avoids confusion.

Road rules are State mandatory items, but the reality is most of us 'choose' to either sometimes obey them, or obey them all of the time. Its a matter of personal choice, and as police say; its always an optional tax when they issue infringements.

Quote:

I have a fender emilinator, a carbon fibre exhaust, no number plate light, and only one mirror on my bike, all defectable items,

You bastard, you swine you:-) So long as ure happy with them......

Quote:

but neither was the cause of my accident, some defectable items are pure revenue raisers, seriously, should we even go through the point that police can book people for leaving their keys in the ignition, or for having a empty windscreen washer bottle, if these aren't just trumped up charges for revenue reasons i don't know what is.

a) The keys thing that resulted in an ARR I recall, related to leaving babies in cars at petrol stations and shopping centres, where a thief has then stolen the car and caused the mother to cry. That sort of thing. I 'automatically' remove em each and every time, but its no big deal to me. Might also be a result of insurance claims.

That rule is not internationally sourced.

b) The windscreen water 'rule' is an odd one. Not in ARR unless I've missed it (unlikely). Might be a State only law (Typically your states Auditor or AG Dept will notify the road agency to charge XX dollar, and do this or that), for revenue masked as 'safety'? Sure, perhaps.

Agreed, some enforcement is revenue interest.

Some of these more recent national rules arrive because of the female lobby. (See say EB forum).

Agreed in general, we are over governed by Regulations and Acts in ALL civil matters, much red tape and I DON'T blame our various government tiers, but its agency staffers and outside advocates (Harold et al). In road transport, the radar detector thing is an example, if failing a overturn of the NSW prohibition, I'd reduce the fine to $23.75 for possession in cars for full license holders and maintain the restriction for L, P1 and P2.

For what it is worth, I am NSW centric and hold for this geographical region the NSW Parliament to be supreme in most all Legal/Constitutional matters. A signal to the Commonwealth to back-off.

Do as you will, just keep it safe.

burnz · 01-07-2009, 02:42 PM

i'm not fussed about day/night time with driving light's on, but hate it when raining (reflect of the road).

Keepleft · 01-07-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

i'm not fussed about day/night time with driving light's on, but hate it when raining (reflect of the road).

Smartalec, if not - read the posts above and get your lamp descriptions 'correct'.

Feel like a Polly sometimes:-)

I submit the member not be further heard.

bdave351 · 01-07-2009, 02:49 PM

I think three points, baton to the offending lights and clip behind the ears sounds more effective.

I find them extremely annoying, probably a lot more than the younger forum members in that I wear glasses and those bloody things seem to reflect so much more than anything else.

Really there is zero need for them in the city, your just driving around with them on for the "look at me" factor.

And I have run into a growing number for XR/FPV's in the last few weeks driving around the city at night with no headlights, just fog lights to try to look even cooler.....your just embarrassing the rest of us driving something with the same badge.

merlin · 01-07-2009, 03:09 PM

I (thankfully) have never had to endure driving a Hyundai Excel but there must be some magical force within them that compels the owner to operate their annoying rear fog light in perfect waether conditions. It makes me want to ram them more than normal.

imugli · 01-07-2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlin

I (thankfully) have never had to endure driving a Hyundai Excel but there must be some magical force within them that compels the owner to operate their annoying rear fog light in perfect waether conditions. It makes me want to ram them more than normal.

I do drive an excel and I completely agree with you.

Along with most euro import cars that have the 1 reverse light, 1 rear fog light setup that people seem to leave on seemingly simply because they can. Commodores have look at me lights at the front, euro's at the rear

Correct me if I'm wrong, these things (rear fog lights) are the result of euro design rules, where they are mandatory because the euro's actually get weather that deems then necessary and, rather than spend extra developing different taillight setups for other markets, they export as is?

Chilla · 01-07-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6Runner

I work a lot of very early mornings so I get to drive through a lot of fog, but I've got to say, not once has having my fog lamps on helped me see through the fog. All it's ever done for me is light up more fog that I can't see through.

Driving lights are designed to produce a similar lighting pattern to high beam on your normal lights. Whereas Fog lights produce a flat horizontal beam at a low angle designed to cut through haze and stop the effect of 'increasing the fog blockout'. True Fogs carry yellow lenses and shielded bulbs. Some of the after market Fogs being sold currently, and causing the problem of light dazzle to oncoming traffic, are not actually fogs but 'Driving lights'. This is what the wallopers are dirty on. If you drive a vehicle with factory fitted Fogs and are booked for using them 'during a fog' the ADR compliance for that vehicle will stand up in court.

vztrt · 01-07-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b2tf

This is my argument too. I have had them referred to as "daytime running lights" and "fog lights" and also "driving lights", so which is it? Either way, I have driven past cops with them on, some flick theirs on and off to signal me to turn them off, others don't care. I dont think they are dazzling or too bright though and I would think that if they were, that would come back to ADR's and Ford would have to modify the design.

Down the line Ford refers to them as Fog lights, but in the manual IIRC they're referred to as something else.....for XR's anyway.

Keepleft · 01-07-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imugli

I do drive an excel and I completely agree with you.

Along with most euro import cars that have the 1 reverse light, 1 rear fog light setup that people seem to leave on seemingly simply because they can. Commodores have look at me lights at the front, euro's at the rear

Correct me if I'm wrong, these things (rear fog lights) are the result of euro design rules, where they are mandatory because the euro's actually get weather that deems then necessary and, rather than spend extra developing different taillight setups for other markets, they export as is?

1) You'll be happy to know the design rules for rear fogs (ADR52/ADR13/19) will change owing the source rule UNECE 38 update, basically the rear fog lamps would have to be switched on again EACH TIME the car is restarted.

2) The rear fog light 'rule', UNECE 38 etc per above is INTERNATIONAL. Technically, this rule is meant to be *mandatory* for ALL road going vehicles. In AUS we 'opt-out' or dumb-down this rule at ADR 13 Part 8.5.1.

A mistake, because a large portion of the population then haven't a clue what that bright light is, duh! And more the point, it mans cars etc without a rear fog have bugger all protection against being rammed from behind under heavy fog, torrential rain in daylight in particular, when in bushfire smoke conditions, when in dust storms or on a gravel road and dust masks the rear of the car.

3) The ONLY "fog light" that is mandatory in the world IS the rear fog lamp. Front fog lights will remain optional in the world because in most cases, the low-beam headlamps are sufficient.

Enforcement of use is a matter for police, and as license holders, it is up to all of us to refresh our knowledge of rules of the road. In our state driver manuals therefore, we have text telling readers when the rear fog light may be used.

YES, I HATE people misusing rear fogs, BUT I'D NOT own a car without one, just in case.

They are *mandatory fitment* (Single unit) to ALL NSW Fire Brigade and RFS Fire Fighting vehicles now.

Some links:-
Example of passing rainstorm where rear fogs wold have saved some or all of this outcome.
EDIT - I'll upload if I can an example or two of a crash scene from the NSW Hume that ocured in heavy daytime rain.

ACT discussion on the subject-
http://the-riotact.com/?p=12406#comment-212015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilla

True Fogs carry yellow lenses and shielded bulbs.

99% agree, but rem the RULE is that two colours are permissible: 1; SELECTIVE YELLOW and 2; WHITE-OPTIC. The white-optic variety are on most cars in this market. I am personally happy with either colour when used under snow, fog etc - not too fussed.

The 'bulb Shield' native on some fog lamp designs, can also be achieved by a trick of the lens and parabola. Sometimes its the bulbs TIP that acts as the shield (the grey area).

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Down the line Ford refers to them as Fog lights, but in the manual IIRC they're referred to as something else.....for XR's anyway.

Rem, consider the wiring, mounting position, owner manual AND THOSE "ISO" markings given earlier in thread, AND then reference the lamps Compliance markings on the lens vis; "B" = front fog (eg; 02B), "R" = driving lamp (eg; HR, or HR-P).
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpos...78&postcount=4

xygt01 · 01-07-2009, 04:11 PM

all i can say is some people really no how to pxxx people off on ths forum

Chilla · 01-07-2009, 04:24 PM

At my tender age (67) I find any high intensity light from oncoming vehicles a 'true' pain. Therefore I wear yellow tinted glasses. TRY IT!

Teflon Turbo · 01-07-2009, 04:28 PM

if lights are adjusted accordingly there is never an issue as far I can see.

But I have to agree with some others here, 4WD lights are often blinding me.

burnz · 01-07-2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Smartalec, if not - read the posts above and get your lamp descriptions 'correct'.

Feel like a Polly sometimes:-)

I submit the member not be further heard.

nothing smartalec about it..

those lights hsv/fpv set in the airdam are a pain, when reflect off the "wet"road.
no problem any other time day/night.

and some yellow fog's can be just as bad.
no one need's fog lights anyway, a pair of sunny's will do a better job!!

Keepleft · 01-07-2009, 04:57 PM

With ref to Kedderz @ Toymods for most of these. Note the dark clouds.

Quote:

Just got back from a parts run to Sydney and back from Canberra, on the way back it poured with rain, lots of standing water and people not slowing down. I was thinking to myself, there WILL be an accident and sure enough just on the top of a crest.

See attached (regards the rear fog discussion).
We blame 'speed', but it helps to be able to see the lead car:-)

RTA F3 camera of similar conditions:-
http://www.fordforums.com.au/attachm...chmentid=40487

Micksxboxmods · 01-07-2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdave351

Really there is zero need for them in the city, your just driving around with them on for the "look at me" factor.

And I have run into a growing number for XR/FPV's in the last few weeks driving around the city at night with no headlights, just fog lights to try to look even cooler.....your just embarrassing the rest of us driving something with the same badge.

each to their own mate, as long as it doesnt risk the lives of themselves or others. It does look good, so people do it, much like you like the look at me factor with your signature, its really the same. Im not saying your wrong in doing your sig, its good stuff.

People pay good money for a car that has driving lights that you arent allowed to use, wonder when they will outlaw stereos as some of those actually will cause deafness, the inability to hear a police, fire or ambo on urgent duty....now what is more dangerous???

I can think of much worse things than forgetting to turn the driving lights off. The road rules state that you dip your high beam within a certain distance, as a courtesy. What would you rather, ****y driving lights or high beams or a plethora of 4wd spotties???

Cheers
Mick

Keepleft · 01-07-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micksxboxmods

People pay good money for a car that has driving lights that you aren't allowed to use, wonder when they will outlaw stereos as some of those actually will cause deafness, the inability to hear a police, fire or ambo on urgent duty....now what is more dangerous???

I can think of much worse things than forgetting to turn the driving lights off. The road rules state that you dip your high beam within a certain distance, as a courtesy. What would you rather, ****y driving lights or high beams or a plethora of 4wd spotties???
Cheers
Mick

Mick, maaaayte - see 'descriptions' here:-)
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpos...5&postcount=50

Quote:

Originally Posted by xygt01

all i can say is some people really no how to pxxx people off on ths forum

Choose NOT to be offended. Ze law iz ze law you see and we are discussing a few simple technical things.

Thanks for playing, sport!

xygt01 · 01-07-2009, 05:12 PM

yes law is the law but they are different from state to state so be sure if you quote laws you have the right state

Keepleft · 01-07-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xygt01

yes law is the law but they are different from state to state so be sure if you quote laws you have the right state

Exactly, good man.

Australian Road Rule 217 'manages' the use of both front and rear fog lamps, NATIONALLY, except in NSW (where we continue to maintain SEPARATE regulations on the matter, but our NSW law on the matter is harmonised with ARR 217 in practicalities.

And in WA.

Since these two States have always maintained state law that restricts the use of front fog lights to hazardous weather conditions causing reduced visibility.

BECAUSE we ARE, effectively, 'a nation of sovereign States' (and I'll fight tooth and nail to defend that in time), each jurisdiction then fines its citizens/visitors whatever it decides, - insofar money/demerits/no sex etc.

You see, we all have differing opinions on whether the front fogs annoy etc, and opinions as to the lamps colour preference. But then we have the law, which is now harmonised 'with the rest of the world team'.

For other readers, I am not about causing upset, but will correct 'terminologies' (since such causes much confusion), and highlighting law, compliance issues etc.

And this is one tough but fair forum, try dealing with Australia collectively and see how you go on the education campaign:-))

Dinner approaches . . .

**Falcon Coupe** · 01-07-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

You know its funny, at about this time every year we have the same discussion, take a look at one of my earlier posts where I gave a link to an earlier post on this forum, note the date:-)

Thing is, THIS is a major motor forum, where I'd like to think most of us are at least a little more "in-tune" with the realities of driving and the motor car".

Now I ask, WHAT CHANCE HAVE DO EDUCATORS/SELF ETC, HAVE IN REGARDS TO THE REMAINING 99% OF THE LICENSE BEARING POPULATION WHO ALSO 'USE LAMPS'??

Agreed, there will be no chance of the general population knowing this rule without a media advertising campaign. This rule has been in place for sometime.

It amazes me how many people have a tough time getting their head around it considering the amount of times the issue has been covered.

Each new thread is just flogging a dead horse, the only difference with this one is the fact the rule is now going to be policed.
I gather the effect on the hip pocket makes people actually take notice.

mrbaxr6t · 01-07-2009, 05:26 PM

heres my take on it -

firstly yes they shouldn't be used during the day in perfect weather conditions, unless we are driving thru a severe rain/thunderstorm lights should be on (low beam) so others can see where you are from behind thx to tail lights through the spray from your car. Fog lights not neccecary in this instance

If we are driving in fog during daylight hours again headlights (low beam) are a hell yes to increase your ability to be seen by others, you will see headlight/tail lights LOOOONG before the vehicle they are attached to in fog.

If we happen to be driving at highway speed at night in the middle of nowhere and you are the only vehicle anywhere, let it rip all the light you can throwout. Dip em should you see an oncoming car (there is no other sources of light to aid you in seeing hazards/obstacles etc) fog lights illuminate the area off the sides of the road down low and will aid you in spotting "critters" wombats/wallabies etc.. I would rather see them and miss them over not see them and smack them at highway speed.

If we happen to be in suburban melbourne and traffic is rather gridlocked nose to tail then I see no real need for anything more than low beams. the combined low beams of all the cars coupled with the street lights make visibility quite good.

Now heres what I think the problem is with "fog" lights - they can be re-aimed up like a mock high beam, re-aiming up should be illegal not using them when properly aimed.

And I would have to agree some of you need a teaspoon of cement.

xygt01 · 01-07-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

heres my take on it -

firstly yes they shouldn't be used during the day in perfect weather conditions, unless we are driving thru a severe rain/thunderstorm lights should be on (low beam) so others can see where you are from behind thx to tail lights through the spray from your car. Fog lights not neccecary in this instance

If we are driving in fog during daylight hours again headlights (low beam) are a hell yes to increase your ability to be seen by others, you will see headlight/tail lights LOOOONG before the vehicle they are attached to in fog.

If we happen to be driving at highway speed at night in the middle of nowhere and you are the only vehicle anywhere, let it rip all the light you can throwout. Dip em should you see an oncoming car (there is no other sources of light to aid you in seeing hazards/obstacles etc) fog lights illuminate the area off the sides of the road down low and will aid you in spotting "critters" wombats/wallabies etc.. I would rather see them and miss them over not see them and smack them at highway speed.

If we happen to be in suburban melbourne and traffic is rather gridlocked nose to tail then I see no real need for anything more than low beams. the combined low beams of all the cars coupled with the street lights make visibility quite good.

Now heres what I think the problem is with "fog" lights - they can be re-aimed up like a mock high beam, re-aiming up should be illegal not using them when properly aimed.

And I would have to agree some of you need a teaspoon of cement.

Please be carefull what you say you will get flamed with the rules for every section of your comment EVEN IF IT IS YOUR OPINION

this will be my last post in here
i think its almost time for this thred to be closed

gthofan · 01-07-2009, 05:45 PM

For anyone thinking of wiring ba cornering lamps up to the parkers, you will be done. It happened a few weeks ago. $119 fine. The lights still remain unchanged, i like how they look, and give more visibility on the road to the sides. Will i change them.... NO.

The Snout · 01-07-2009, 06:29 PM

So how many left turns can I do in a day before losing 3 points ?

Smoke Pursuit · 01-07-2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gthofan

For anyone thinking of wiring ba cornering lamps up to the parkers, you will be done. It happened a few weeks ago. $119 fine. The lights still remain unchanged, i like how they look, and give more visibility on the road to the sides. Will i change them.... NO.

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