Caltex axes up to 630 jobs with refinery closure

[roberts]

seems to me that caltex and woolworth will use this to to sell us sub quality fuel at discounted prices, coles will do the same then like the milk and meat and everthing else put the squeeze on competition, which in turn will remove all fuel production from australia once the monoploy plays out prices go back up. Then we can buy over priced food to save 4c off over priced petrol. FOR WE ARE YOUNG AND FREE

[KIWI-1]

The Kiwis are smart enough to be self-sufficient, use petroleum royalties for the benefit of all, and Shell is owned 50% by the taxpayers through the NZ Super Fund and 50% by an NZ investment company.

[ILLaViTaR]

Better give a stimulus to the oil companies then, can't have them sacrificing those exec luxuries and private jets to save those jobs.

It's the carbon taxes fault, **** wranga with a nose that is big and stuff.

[Nikked]

On sunrise this morning, Joe Hockey....

"If you want jobs...go west'

Things are dire when the opposition don't challange on what the governments doing to stem the decline of Australian manufacturing...

[irish2]

What gets me is how cheaply we sell our LPG (circa 15c/l) only to buy it back at market prices. It is about time we benefited from the resources in our own ground. The arab nations have cheap fuel, why can't we have cheap power and cheap LPG?

[Pepscobra]

I haven't read this entire thread, but all I can say is sometimes Australia is its worst own enemy.

There is a reason why companies are rapidly pulling out of Australia like this; we (our government, unions, etc) are simply making it too expensive and prohibitive to manufacture here.

Countless companies are shifting their manufacturing operations offshore. Even our big miners (BHP, Rio) are selecting to source prefabricated items like accommodation units and plant from Asia in lieu of buying local made.

How bad does it have to get before we change our attitudes?
Do we all need to lose our jobs first before letting go of this sense of entitlement and remembering things like hard work, commitment, etc?

First off, we need to get rid of the current gutless, phoney and reckless Labour Government.
Is it just me getting sick of hearing how great our economy is from these politicians one minute and then in the same news break hearing about all these people losing their jobs??

Please, let's wake up before its too late...!

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

I haven't read this entire thread, but all I can say is sometimes Australia is its worst own enemy.

There is a reason why companies are rapidly pulling out of Australia like this; we (our government, unions, etc) are simply making it too expensive and prohibitive to manufacture here.

Countless companies are shifting their manufacturing operations offshore. Even our big miners (BHP, Rio) are selecting to source prefabricated items like accommodation units and plant from Asia in lieu of buying local made.

How bad does it have to get before we change our attitudes?
Do we all need to lose our jobs first before letting go of this sense of entitlement and remembering things like hard work, commitment, etc?

First off, we need to get rid of the current gutless, phoney and reckless Labour Government.
Is it just me getting sick of hearing how great our economy is from these politicians one minute and then in the same news break hearing about all these people losing their jobs??

Please, let's wake up before its too late...!

I don't think attacking unions or governments is the real answer. Each successive government has continued down the same path. If we were to compete with the third world nations we would have to live like them too. That means having two extremes, a wealthy upper class and the poor.

It is the consumers who are to blame. Each day there are choises to be made from what toothpaste you buy, to the car you drive, and I never leave the shops with anything that isn't Aussie made (yes that means no colgate in my basket).

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by irish2

I don't think attacking unions or governments is the real answer. Each successive government has continued down the same path. If we were to compete with the third world nations we would have to live like them too. That means having two extremes, a wealthy upper class and the poor.

It is the consumers who are to blame. Each day there are choises to be made from what toothpaste you buy, to the car you drive, and I never leave the shops with anything that isn't Aussie made (yes that means no colgate in my basket).

I regret to say that you may be the exception my friend, if in fact true. We all talk Aussie made, but shop price.
As much as I'd like to believe you, I'm sure that not everything you buy is the Australian made equivalent. Toothpaste won't fix this problem I'm afraid.

Do you ask where the petrol comes from when you fill up? Or pull into the servo with the cheapest price that day?
You've never bought overseas via eBay?
Do you have a home theatre system? What is it... Sony, LG? You did realize that there's a company in SA called Krix that make some of the best AV equipment in the world? Did you consider them when buying your $499 surround sound system?

These aren't directed at just you so please don't take offense. But if you think just by buying a few household items will change things, think again. it's not going to be that easy. The changes need to start from the top if we stand a chance.
Look what unions do... They make us think we're getting screwed by our employers, we all go on strike, company finally gives in then shortly afterwards they move operations offshore. Everyone loses. Other companies see this and then evaluate the risk/cost of doing business here.

Compete with third world nations? Crock of poo! How about actually being content with what we have instead of demanding more.

If companies like these oil refiners weren't scared of the costs and disruptions to their projects, they may consider investing here and upgrading the existing facilities. Instead, they run them till they've squeezed all the depreciation from them, then pack up and move offshore. When most of these facilities were built, I imagine Australia was a much different place.

[GREGL]

The only business overseas companies are interested in investing in is farmland and mining leases everything else they already have. Makes you wonder. On a positive side without all the high running costs of those old refineries you would think the price of fuel would drop. As if.

[mik]

delete....

[mik]

Originally Posted by irish2

I don't think attacking unions or governments is the real answer. Each successive government has continued down the same path. If we were to compete with the third world nations we would have to live like them too. That means having two extremes, a wealthy upper class and the poor.

It is the consumers who are to blame. Each day there are choises to be made from what toothpaste you buy, to the car you drive, and I never leave the shops with anything that isn't Aussie made (yes that means no colgate in my basket).

i applaud you on your patriotism, it is a dying breed these days, i suspect multiculturalism is in some part to blame for that, but i could be wrong!
yes to some degree consumers play a role, but when push comes to shove the cost of living/surviving and doing business are the same, if people can do more for their family and themselves/business with less money they are going to do it, and i would place a lot of the reason directly for high costs on policies by our leaders, and yes i would agree successive governments over the years/decades can all take blame,
from where i stand being a reasonably old fart , i have seen our country go from where we owned just about everything including our utilities.....gas/water/electricity/telecommunications /councils and made just about everything we needed to where a huge percentage is is foreign owned and imported, many things are closing down shifting off shore and once upon a time dad was the bread winner , there was no need for wifey to go and earn a living, she stayed home looked after the kids.
we used have service, they served you at petrol stations, when you had a problem with a utility bill you could go down and sort it out at one of the many offices, these days , you ring the the number on the back of the bill and spend 20 minutes listening to a recording telling you how valuable a customer you are and a representative will be on line soon........another 20 minutes later!!! and it goes for nearly most utilities and bloody banks too !
it`s not hard to understand why something as labor intensive to build as a refinery is not being rebuilt in Australia.
as for your last comment, " If we were to compete with the third world nations we would have to live like them too. That means having two extremes, a wealthy upper class and the poor".
i think that is just where we are heading, i hope i`m wrong.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by mik

i applaud you on your patriotism, it is a dying breed these days, i suspect multiculturalism is in some part to blame for that, but i could be wrong!
yes to some degree consumers play a role, but when push comes to shove the cost of living/surviving and doing business are the same, if people can do more for their family and themselves/business with less money they are going to do it, and i would place a lot of the reason directly for high costs on policies by our leaders, and yes i would agree successive governments over the years/decades can all take blame,
from where i stand being a reasonably old fart , i have seen our country go from where we owned just about everything including our utilities.....gas/water/electricity/telecommunications /councils and made just about everything we needed to where a huge percentage is is foreign owned and imported, many things are closing down shifting off shore and once upon a time dad was the bread winner , there was no need for wifey to go and earn a living, she stayed home looked after the kids.
we used have service, they served you at petrol stations, when you had a problem with a utility bill you could go down and sort it out at one of the many offices, these days , you ring the the number on the back of the bill and spend 20 minutes listening to a recording telling you how valuable a customer you are and a representative will be on line soon........another 20 minutes later!!! and it goes for nearly most utilities and bloody banks too !
it`s not hard to understand why something as labor intensive to build as a refinery is not being rebuilt in Australia.
as for your last comment, " If we were to compete with the third world nations we would have to live like them too. That means having two extremes, a wealthy upper class and the poor".
i think that is just where we are heading, i hope i`m wrong.

I understand you price argument, but I often find the cheapest products are often Aussie. They are just tucked away down low or out of the way and usually are not as brightly labeled or coloured.

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

I regret to say that you may be the exception my friend, if in fact true. We all talk Aussie made, but shop price.
As much as I'd like to believe you, I'm sure that not everything you buy is the Australian made equivalent. Toothpaste won't fix this problem I'm afraid.

Do you ask where the petrol comes from when you fill up? Or pull into the servo with the cheapest price that day?
You've never bought overseas via eBay?
Do you have a home theatre system? What is it... Sony, LG? You did realize that there's a company in SA called Krix that make some of the best AV equipment in the world? Did you consider them when buying your $499 surround sound system?

These aren't directed at just you so please don't take offense. But if you think just by buying a few household items will change things, think again. it's not going to be that easy. The changes need to start from the top if we stand a chance.
Look what unions do... They make us think we're getting screwed by our employers, we all go on strike, company finally gives in then shortly afterwards they move operations offshore. Everyone loses. Other companies see this and then evaluate the risk/cost of doing business here.

Compete with third world nations? Crock of poo! How about actually being content with what we have instead of demanding more.

If companies like these oil refiners weren't scared of the costs and disruptions to their projects, they may consider investing here and upgrading the existing facilities. Instead, they run them till they've squeezed all the depreciation from them, then pack up and move offshore. When most of these facilities were built, I imagine Australia was a much different place.

Just for the record I have never bought anything off eBay. My TV is imported, but all of my furniture including my refrigerator is Aussie (no surround sound). When I buy tools I use KC tools, Mummy, Finkel and anything else that has Australian made written on it. When I do the shopping I have checked each product of what I am buying to find the most Australian content (Only check it once then I know). I even only buy juice made with Australian fruit, not that concentrate crap.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by irish2

I understand you price argument, but I often find the cheapest products are often Aussie. They are just tucked away down low or out of the way and usually are not as brightly labeled or coloured.
Just for the record I have never bought anything off eBay. My TV is imported, but all of my furniture including my refrigerator is Aussie (no surround sound). When I buy tools I use KC tools, Mummy, Finkel and anything else that has Australian made written on it. When I do the shopping I have checked each product of what I am buying to find the most Australian content (Only check it once then I know). I even only buy juice made with Australian fruit, not that concentrate crap.

And when you go shopping do you fill up with australian made fuel, do you make sure your check out chick uses an australian made register. When you buy your australian made car, do you rip out all the imported parts. When you fly, do you make sure you go on an australian made plane. Last I checked, australia only had a $300 million trade deficit in May 2012. That works out to be roughly $15 per australian.

The simple fact is someone who buys an australian made 6 or 8 cylinder car, probably does alot more damage to australias balance of trade than someone who buys an imported 4 cylinder.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

And when you go shopping do you fill up with australian made fuel, do you make sure your check out chick uses an australian made register. When you buy your australian made car, do you rip out all the imported parts. When you fly, do you make sure you go on an australian made plane. Last I checked, australia only had a $300 million trade deficit in May 2012. That works out to be roughly $15 per australian.

The simple fact is someone who buys an australian made 6 or 8 cylinder car, probably does alot more damage to australias balance of trade than someone who buys an imported 4 cylinder.

Mate, it seems like you are trying to be a bit antagonistic here. I never said I could purchase everything from here I just said I tried my hardest. I support a lot of niche brands that represent great value for money and you would probably breeze right past in the shops.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by irish2

Mate, it seems like you are trying to be a bit antagonistic here. I never said I could purchase everything from here I just said I tried my hardest. I support a lot of niche brands that represent great value for money and you would probably breeze right past in the shops.

No, you originally started of as saying (post 75)

and I never leave the shops with anything that isn't Aussie made

and as each posting has gone on it gets more and more diluted.

People may think they are doing better for the australian economy by buying australian, but a belief is only a belief, it doesnt make it true.

[mik]

explain yourself bobthebuilda, i have to say personally i don`t believe your assertions!

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by mik

explain yourself bobthebuilda, i have to say personally i don`t believe your assertions!

Well lets look at a few comparisons using a few broad strokes (and yes some might be broad). Two people buy cars to do 25,000 km's per year. Buyer one buys a $37000 falcon (on road). Minus costs (gst, rego, stamp duty, dealer profit), the car leaves fords plant at circa $28,000. At 30% imported components = $8400 in imported parts. He runs it for 5 years at 10 litres per 100 = 2500 (litres per year) x 5 = 12500 litres = 70% imported = 8750 litres @$1 per litre (taxes are post import) = $8750 (+ $8400)= $17150

Buyer 2 buys a kia rio for $16999 (on road). Minus post manufacturing costs, the car arrives in australia for $12000. The car uses 5.7 litres per 100 = 1425 (litres per year) x 5 = 7125 litres = 70% imported = 4987 litres at $1 per litre = 4987 (+ $12000) = $16987.

Now thats not even taking into account many other things like the $100 million dollars of equipment Ford would have imported to make the falcon (divided by the how many cars come off that equipment), the extra import cost of tyres for a falcon than a cerato for five years (after all, all tyres are imported) etc etc etc.

[Shonky.]

I guess he means that there is more imported value in a Falcon or Commodore (in components used) than an entire imported 4 cyl.

Sounds a bit hard to believe. What do others think of this? Bossxr8?

How much of a Falcon is imported?

At any rate, even if it is true you can't measure the entire economic impact of a purchasing decision just via the impact on balance of trade.

That would be ignoring the huge and important externalities that go with manufacturing.

Most of our exported goods are unfinished goods. It is important to manufacture and to just look at balance of trade would be foolish

And the idea that individual purchasing decisions on small consumables don't make a difference (as has been suggested earlier) is dangerous.

As a consumer you CAN make a difference. Sure, some goods are not produced here and need to be imported. But if you really love this country you should consider keeping a local in a job where you can

[Shonky.]

but EVEN if the two values are the same (imported cost of rio vs Falcon) the balance of the cost of the Falcon (the local portion) has still put food on an Australian table whereas the rio equivalent has not

and then there is the positive externalities of car manufacturing

[Shonky.]

How can it not be true?

[mik]

personally i think we are heading in the wrong direction,
we may look back 20 years with no manufacturing , very little resources left and say how the hell did we stuff it all up so bad, i hope i`m wrong.