Aussie hostage in Iraq - Page 2

**Kingsley** · 02-05-2005, 08:02 PM

I feel for the family of this individual, as they are the ones who ultimately suffer. But this guy made the choice to involve himself, knowing full well the risks involved and the fate of previous hostages and he still elected to go. Even if we did pull out the troops, no amount of money and no amount of pleading will save this persons life.

Psycho Chicken · 02-05-2005, 08:12 PM

He knew the risks when he went over there. No sympathy from me. The majority of these people go over for a quick buck, screw up then beg for the prime ministers/presidents/governators to bail them out.

rag top · 02-05-2005, 08:49 PM

I wonder what the americans think. Isn't he married to an american, lives in america, but was born in Australia? I thought I read that somewhere.

**Captain Stubing** · 02-05-2005, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by '67

I wonder what the americans think. Isn't he married to an american, lives in america, but was born in Australia? I thought I read that somewhere.

His wife is from California, apparently. They got to double-dip, they made him appeal to John Howard, and Arnie.

XplosiveR6 · 02-05-2005, 09:03 PM

he was basically dead as soon as they captured him, i know id rather die at least trying to get away,

03-05-2005, 07:57 AM

But back on track with the fella who has been captured.

If it was the case and lets say everyone pulled out and left there country alone, you seriously think that thos sand people would let him go!

You get told before you go, never to go anywhere alone, there is a personal guard with you at all times, and he went out with out the guard. Hmmm STUPID!!!

and going to such a hostile place to work, yeah there is a lot of money there, but the risks present them selves and he knew the risks, no body was hiding them.

unfortunatly its a sad event and makes me feel even strongly against thos people, but it happens all the time and he chose to work there. That is his Freedom to make that decision.

Just my 2c!

bindi · 03-05-2005, 08:43 AM

I suppose what influences me is that I saw the Nick Berg beheading from last year/year before (?). My husband got it sent and he and I thought it was what we were shown on tv... but this was the WHOLE THING. I almost vomited and passed out.

He was alive for around 15-20 seconds, screaming then gurgling as they got a large KNIFE and hacked into his skin, then into his veins, then he finally died. And the head was finally cut from his body and it was held up as the f*ckheads were screaming about Allah and all that load of crap.

It is one of the most harrowing things I have ever seen... we deleted it straight away but it is etched into my memory.

And that's why anyone who is threatened with this to me needs to be rescued. I don't care how the guy got there, GET HIM OUT OF THERE NOW.

**Charliewool** · 03-05-2005, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

I suppose what influences me is that I saw the Nick Berg beheading from last year/year before (?). My husband got it sent and he and I thought it was what we were shown on tv... but this was the WHOLE THING. I almost vomited and passed out.

He was alive for around 15-20 seconds, screaming then gurgling as they got a large KNIFE and hacked into his skin, then into his veins, then he finally died. And the head was finally cut from his body and it was held up as the f*ckheads were screaming about Allah and all that load of crap.

It is one of the most harrowing things I have ever seen... we deleted it straight away but it is etched into my memory.

And that's why anyone who is threatened with this to me needs to be rescued. I don't care how the guy got there, GET HIM OUT OF THERE NOW.

Yes Bindi, it was a terrifying piece of video...... However there is HEAPS of doubt that it was real!... I hope this isn't getting off track too much, but check the 42 reasons on this link that seem to confirm it was all staged.

http://www.resist.com.au/comments/c152.asp

chelvdog · 03-05-2005, 12:14 PM

We haven't heard alot about Saddam since his capture. I don't know of any trial begining against him and would be interested to know whats going on with all that.

Saddam took power by publicly assassinating members of the Iraqi government who apposed him. God knows the extent of what horrors were committed in secret!

Iraq needs to be rebuilt, period. The armed forces need to be there to stabilize the insurgents, contractors need to be there to do the building, etc. They chose to go there, no-one held a gun to their heads.
Don't get me wrong, I do feel for the guy and his family. His undies would have discovered a new shade of brown by now, but, the needs of the few are overshadowed by the needs of the masses.
We can let a whole country fall apart by letting one man live. There is no guarentee that the captors would keep him alive even if we did withdraw.
My question to you is this, a small school girl is standing on a road about to get hit by a school bus carrying 50kids. The only way for the bus to avoid killing the girl is to plummet over a cliff killing the 50 kids inside. What would you pick as the outcome?

xceler8shun · 03-05-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chelvdog

My question to you is this, a small school girl is standing on a road about to get hit by a school bus carrying 50kids. The only way for the bus to avoid killing the girl is to plummet over a cliff killing the 50 kids inside. What would you pick as the outcome?

You would always sacrifice one to save many.

One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic - Joseph Stalin

xceler8shun · 03-05-2005, 03:16 PM

Ford_Falcon_XR6 these so called websites that have your proof of numbers and stats that you claim to be true, could infact just be bullshit altogether.

Get some creditable references and evidence to back these claims up besides what some keyboard warriors have posted on the net as their version of the truth.

Deadman · 03-05-2005, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xceler8shun

Ford_Falcon_XR6 these so called websites that have your proof of numbers and stats that you claim to be true, could infact just be bullshit altogether.

Get some creditable references and evidence to back these claims up besides what some keyboard warriors have posted on the net as their version of the truth.

*sigh* And your sources stating otherwise couldn't be bullshit all together? And it's interesting you wrote 'their version of the truth' - because that's all we get fed from the US....

Oh well, thanks for the conversation guys.. I'll have to leave FordForums I think for a while, because the second I post in a forum somewhere, I can just see "YOU LOVE SADDAM!" or "YOU SUCK" coming up underneath it just because my views differed from yours. I'm a racist bastard right because I don't aggree with you? Or am I a terrorist because I don't aggree with Howard? No. I just have my own head on my own two shoulders and don't choose just to accept all the BS the US feed us in the media. I never ever said my opinion was the correct one, the whole freaking point of my first article was to show that everyone has different opinions, which I thought is what one of the great things about us was.

I'm not some 10 year old try hard coming on here looking to stir everyone up, and I didn't intend to get stuck on here getting told what i have said is a load of crap and that the research i did for a uni assignment 5 years ago is BS because I couldn't find it... Um, did u notice I said the link I posted could be BS?? I was just trying to find a quick example, that site could very well be BS, but I didn't have the time to go the library etc and get artciles to prove this to you. And shock, I don't have my 5 year old assignment - because I stopped studying art after the first year to study IT, and I'm sorry i didn't keep it to post here...

I'm sorry I offended you all by trying to voice a different opinion which many Australians have - esspecially ones around my age - because we've only ever seen the US domiate the world. We weren't around in the 60's... I'm just wondering why you all didn't have to post 10000 facts to prove your points? Oh, because you're "right"... Sorry, I forgot...

Casper · 03-05-2005, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

*sigh* And your sources stating otherwise aren't bullshit all together? And it's interesting you wrote 'their version of the truth' - because that's all you get fed from the US. I thought you would realise that by now.

Oh well, thanks for the conversation guys.. I'll have to leave FordForums I think for a while, because the second I post in a forum somewhere, I can just see "YOU LOVE SADDAM!" or "YOU SUCK" coming up underneath it just because my views differed from yours. I'm a racist bastard right because I don't aggree with you? Or am I a terrorist because I don't aggree with Howard? No. I just have my own head on my own two shoulders and don't choose just to accept all the BS the US feed us in the media. I never ever said my opinion was the correct one, the whole freaking point of my first article was to show that everyone has different opinions, which I thought is what one of the great things about us was.

I'm not some 10 year old try hard coming on here looking to stir everyone up, and I didn't intend to get stuck on here getting told what i have said is a load of crap and that the research i did for a uni assignment 5 years ago is BS because I couldn't find it... Um, did u notice I said the link I posted could be BS?? I was just trying to find a quick example, that site could very well be BS, but I didn't have the time to go the library etc and get artciles to prove this to you. And shock, I don't have my 5 year old assignment - because I stopped studying art after the first year to study IT, and I'm sorry i didn't keep it to post here...

I'm sorry I offended you all by trying to voice a different opinion which many Australians have - esspecially ones around my age - because we've only ever seen the US domiate the world. We weren't around in the 60's... I'm just wondering why you all didn't have to post 10000 facts to prove your points? Oh, because you're "right"... Sorry, I forgot...

Sarcasm isnt a valid argument.
You were the one that made the claim, not us.
As I said, the US are no angels by a long shot but they are also a democracy, not a dictatorship. They have their faults as do most countries but the fear of being kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by the "government" for no better reason than your personal prefereces or religion is far from the thoughts of 99.9999% of its citizens. Can the same be said for Saddams Iraq?

Deadman · 03-05-2005, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

Sarcasm isnt a valid argument.
They have their faults as do most countries but the fear of being kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by the "government" for no better reason than your personal prefereces or religion is far from the thoughts of 99.9999% of its citizens. Can the same be said for Saddams Iraq?

In the US, the fear of being kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by other citizens for no better reason than your personal preferences or religion is more relevent don't you think? As I said before, 85 people are shot dead in america every day by their own citizens, not to mention the rapes, tortures, kidnappings and bashings...

Why don't you see that as a concern? That the world's superpower is such a self destructive country? Or do you WANT us to always be at war?

Casper · 03-05-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

In the US, the fear of being kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by other citizens for no better reason than your personal preferences or religion is more relevent don't you think? As I said before, 85 people are shot dead in america every day by their own citizens, not to mention the rapes, tortures, kidnappings and bashings...

Why don't you see that as a concern? That the world's superpower is such a self destructive country? Or do you WANT us to always be at war?

Of course its a concern however labelling it as a "murdeous governement" or that they are a "murderous" country as a whole is a huge leap. The fact is that thats approx 2704 shootings a year. From a population of 260million thats a grand total of 0.0000104% of the population....or for referance thats approx 208 shootings a year (4 a week) in Australia. Do you think there was more or less killing than that in Saddams Iraq??? So your arguement, while already stepping away from your initial claims, still does not hold much sway. Not only is this the civilian population doing this but as a percentage its actually not horrendoulsy bad. Every death is a horror but perspective is needed.

Considering that every conutry in the world probably has a similar murder rate I dont see anything here but a sad indictment of modern society as a whole, regardless of contry.

bindi · 03-05-2005, 03:50 PM

I am really shocked and disappointed at how many pro war people are on these forums. Don't you think the world has battled enough? When are we all going to learn the true ways of peace? Don't you DARE say this is impossible. We are CHOOSING this life for ourselves and our planet. WE ARE ALL IN TOTAL CONTROL OF OUR LIVES AND DESTINIES, and this is what we are doing with it. Don't give me this crap of "one person can't make a difference" either, we are letting Big Business and Governments all over the world get away with their dealings because it is easier than joining together and making a serious stand.

If it was so important for Sadam to be out of the picture, it seriously would not have taken much for some lone sniper to go to Iraq and shoot him. The US put the bastard in there, they can take him out. It's just that they want CONTROL of the oil. They also want to be the Superheroes of the world, as they believe they are the one and only fkn power.

The US don't give a rat's **** about what is happening in other countries because they don't have the OIL... and therefore they can implode for all Georgie Porgie cares.

As long as it doesn't affect his God-riddled brain and his "moral" (very loosely-used term here) identity, then he can sweep other desperate nations and little-known countries under the carpet cos they have NOTHING to offer the US.

What about Mugabe, hey? He's been killing everyone and plunging Zimbabwe into total dictatorship and death and destruction, but nobody does anything to help these people. Georgie is SELECTIVE about who he "rescues", cos it has to look good. Georgie has to wear his underwear on the outside and don a cape.

HE LIED, THEY ALL LIED, JUST SO THEY COULD GO TO WAR - it's been proven time and time again, they've ADMITTED IT! So what else are they lying about???

EVERYTHING.

:

bindi · 03-05-2005, 04:17 PM

Ok ok... I respect that people are entitled to their opinion, and that it's ok for disagreement to occur. I suppose I wasn't expecting the responses is all, it kinda took me offguard and I let loose.

Let's agree to disagree and perhaps one day we may all be on the same "side" and change the world together.

Also there was personal attack of someone (Ford_Falcon_XR6) for trying to put up a different opinion to the general gist of most posters.

Moderators, if you are anywhere, perhaps you could just close this thread down, it's causing too much grief and aggression.

Thanks.

Deadman · 03-05-2005, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

Ok ok... I respect that people are entitled to their opinion, and that it's ok for disagreement to occur. I suppose I wasn't expecting the responses is all, it kinda took me offguard and I let loose.

Let's agree to disagree and perhaps one day we may all be on the same "side" and change the world together.

Also there was personal attack of someone (Ford_Falcon_XR6) for trying to put up a different opinion to the general gist of most posters.

Moderators, if you are anywhere, perhaps you could just close this thread down, it's causing too much grief and aggression.

Thanks.

Aggreed

Sourbastard · 03-05-2005, 04:20 PM

Having lived in the US, and having married one of their.... species.. I am the last person to defend the US, infact I disapprove of their continent.

That being said, war will always be a part of life. Infact if you look at human history, in some part of the world, war is always being waged in some form or another for the last 5,000 years. Its been constant. If you havent heard it on the news, it doesnt mean its not occuring.

Joining hands and pretending we love each other is not part of human psychology at this point in time. It may never be. As long as there is some ignorant tyrant, there will always be cause for warfare or rebellion. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, that includes revolution from time to time, although its unlikely to happen in australia unless a paid day off was promised.

One country will always have something another does not, and as long as thats the case, there will be people willing to send others to die to obtain it. That is the probable case in regards to Iraq, and the fact it has happened should not be a surprise to anyone. Its what empires do to maintain their empires, and the United States is as much of an empire as the Romans or the Greeks or the English or the Turks when their empires were flourishing.

We are now at war(And dont doubt it for lack of symantics), drawn into a situation not of our making, but we are involved, and should continue to be involved if not for the reason we went to war, then for rebuilding the mess we have made.

Or we can leave tomorrow, leave the mess, let even more bloodshed continue as the militants draw people to their cause, slaughtering those that oppose. Let them starve, let religion replace education, and then we can have the real rogue nation supporting terrorism be created, that George Dubbya only imagined when he commenced his operations.

Casper · 03-05-2005, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

I am really shocked and disappointed at how many pro war people are on these forums. Don't you think the world has battled enough? When are we all going to learn the true ways of peace? Don't you DARE say this is impossible. We are CHOOSING this life for ourselves and our planet. WE ARE ALL IN TOTAL CONTROL OF OUR LIVES AND DESTINIES, and this is what we are doing with it. Don't give me this crap of "one person can't make a difference" either, we are letting Big Business and Governments all over the world get away with their dealings because it is easier than joining together and making a serious stand.

If it was so important for Sadam to be out of the picture, it seriously would not have taken much for some lone sniper to go to Iraq and shoot him. The US put the bastard in there, they can take him out. It's just that they want CONTROL of the oil. They also want to be the Superheroes of the world, as they believe they are the one and only fkn power.

The US don't give a rat's **** about what is happening in other countries because they don't have the OIL... and therefore they can implode for all Georgie Porgie cares.

As long as it doesn't affect his God-riddled brain and his "moral" (very loosely-used term here) identity, then he can sweep other desperate nations and little-known countries under the carpet cos they have NOTHING to offer the US.

What about Mugabe, hey? He's been killing everyone and plunging Zimbabwe into total dictatorship and death and destruction, but nobody does anything to help these people. Georgie is SELECTIVE about who he "rescues", cos it has to look good. Georgie has to wear his underwear on the outside and don a cape.

HE LIED, THEY ALL LIED, JUST SO THEY COULD GO TO WAR - it's been proven time and time again, they've ADMITTED IT! So what else are they lying about???

EVERYTHING.

:

Bindi,
You have made some very good points there and I agree with most of them. Firstly, War is bad, it is not something to be taken lightly at all. Any time there is needless death it is a tragedy. I am certainly not for war at all however were we differ is I fully accept that at time it is required to prevent even worse atrocities. It becomes the lesser of two evils in that case.
Now you may argue that there is NEVER an excuse to go to war however there is. That’s not to say we should want to, nor should we do so flippantly. It is the very last of the last resorts. When everything else has been tried and failed, it is the only option left.

So why should we ever need to go to war? Well, hopefully, never. Given a civilized world with tolerance and patience it would never be needed. Unfortunately it is not a civilized world. You are doing your part, I try to do mine, but there are many that choose to use force to gain power. Not in the way you are thinking but true, violent, bloodletting force. Literally killing opponents in cold blood along with anyone else who gets in their way. Then establishing a dictatorship where they are totally unaccountable for their actions. This, as you have said, is happening in Zimbabwe right now. The difference is that not all the other avenues of negotiation have been used. Far from it. You have to remember that Iraq was under 10+ years of sanctions. It was also directly threatening its neighbors on more than one occasion. Zimbabwe has not. So there are vast differences. Enough for me to be rigidly opposed to the US or anyone else mounting an armed invasion to stop it…..even if it does hold some of the biggest diamond and gold mines in the world (yes, it too has vast wealth as well).

Bindi, your thoughts are good, they are compassionate and heartfelt…but they are, in this current world, unrealistic. The best we can do is try to be the one person to make a difference however, realistically, that’s all we can do. Maybe in the future it will be achieved but in the 21st century there is still a lot of violence and hate that will make war a sad but necessary fact.

Psycho Chicken · 03-05-2005, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

We are CHOOSING this life for ourselves and our planet. WE ARE ALL IN TOTAL CONTROL OF OUR LIVES AND DESTINIES, and this is what we are doing with it.

Think about that when you look at the photos of the bodies of thousands of Kurds and anti-Saddam Iraqis who were killed like dogs for having something to say.

Quote:

If it was so important for Sadam to be out of the picture, it seriously would not have taken much for some lone sniper to go to Iraq and shoot him.

I doubt it would do anything but make things worse. You'd then have an organised military who was VERY ****ed off with you, no doubt with Uday Hussen in change.

One thing a lot of people over look France and Germany. They were against this war in the first place and all the lefties jumped behind them saying how great they were, without bothering to look where their oil came from.

I often wonder if people were this vocal about the Allied involvement in WW2.

mcflux · 03-05-2005, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

I often wonder if people were this vocal about the Allied involvement in WW2.

OK, so I'm mentioning the Axis here, but anyway...

1) Hitler f**ked up, he could've had England if he didn't stop bombing the airfields, instead focusing on London

2) Hitler f**ked up again, he gave in to temptation with Russia. Come on! He had a non-aggression pact with Russia for crying out loud! (or something like that)

3) Japan picked the wrong day to bomb Pearl Harbour.

WAAAAAAY off topic!

Anyhoo, if it wasn't for WW2, I wouldn't be alive today. My nanna was widowed due to her first husband dying in combat, then met my pa later during the war (due to being stationed at the same airbase). So I perversely, and grudgingly owe Hitler my life. How FUBARed is that?!?

-Dave-

PS I don't like Hitler!

Casper · 03-05-2005, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

1) Hitler f**ked up, he could've had England if he didn't stop bombing the airfields, instead focusing on London

Actually, it was never going to happen. Even if the RAAF had been wiped out they simply did not have the resources to get men over the channel in sufficient quantities nor the ability to wipe out the entire British Fleet that could have sat off the coast of France and levelled Calais within a number of hours.

The battle of Britan as we know it was a diversion. At the time it occured the majority of troops were being rerouted to the impending Russian campaign. There was never a legitimate invasion plan.

Useless info for you all.

Racecraft · 03-05-2005, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

2) Hitler f**ked up again, he gave in to temptation with Russia. Come on! He had a non-aggression pact with Russia for crying out loud! (or something like that)

True he did in 1939 but he also knew that he needed the war in Europe finished asap. The plan was to dispose of Germanys' most aggressive and unpredicatable foe, the Russians.. It wasn't temptation he gave in to but due to the overwhelming success of his Blitzkrieg tactics he reasoned Germany couldn't afford to wait until the English, Americans and Russians were ready for war.. Meaning he would have to fight all three at once. THe logic was to dispose of the Soviets swiftly then be ready for a fight with USA and Britian with an abundance of rescources captured in the East.

Some more usless off topic info

Schmaigz · 03-05-2005, 04:29 PM

/me applauds
Incredibly well put sourbastard.

mcflux · 03-05-2005, 06:33 PM

Iraq, like Vietnam, well, umm, how should I put it... Neither went to plan!

Vietnam had a messy outcome (and its people are still suffering from Agent Orange), and Iraq is a mess at the moment.

Pre-2003 the world was stuck with a dilemma:

Iraq was ruled by Saddam Hussein. He, his sons, and Baath party members ruled with an iron fist, mistreating citizens in the process. George Bush (who I am no fan of -- except for his quality speeches -- but I will try to make this as neutral as possible) simplified this dilemma to two options, however he probably didn't think of it in this way:

1) Take no action. Saddam continues to rule Iraq, and only after he dies, let's say 30 years from now (still in power) are the mass graves discovered, if at all. Iraq remains under sanctions for the entire period of his dictatorship and the vast majority of citizens are impoverished.

2) Take action, get rid of Saddam, rebuild Iraq. Ideally this outcome would be lovely. Unfortunately reality got in the way and this has proven to be very messy, especially in the short term. The Coalition's less-than-perfect attempt can only be judged in hindsight, decades from now. Kind of like Hiroshima (bomb a city & nuke civilians, or potentially fight until 1950?)

Iraq will be a mess for a long time. The US took action, and this is the result. Nothing we can do about it now! What's been done has been done.

As for the contractor, I feel for him, but he went into a dangerous place, so that automatically means he accepted the risk! He lost out. Let's hope he is freed. If the Australian Government does not comply, hopefully his family can get a loan or something (equity mate?) and privately negotiate his release, despite the fact that one of the main demands is for aussie troops to be withdrawn.

-Dave-

ssj_jaypee · 03-05-2005, 06:43 PM

If you go to ogrish.com you can watch footage of the hostages in iraq getting killed.
Just if you're interested... thats all.

Quasi · 03-05-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

Just heard this on the news this morning.

http://seven.com.au/news/topstories/78331

We shouldn't have gone to war AT ALL and now look what's happened... PULL THE TROOPS OUT NOW!

That's exactly what the gutless ****ers want. Big heroes hiding their faces, and using fear and violence to try and regain a country that was run on torture and murder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliewool

What was this guys motive for being there? Doesn't sound like humanitarian?... More like the almighty dollar? Regardless though...It'd be terrifying.

The company I work for have opportunities all over the world, including Iraq. Personally I have no ambition to become a hostage, or target, simply by being there to try and help get their Information Technology back online.

This is the impact these shit-for-brains are having, by keeping their country a backward society.

03-05-2005, 07:39 PM

america should pull everyone out and use a rather large bomb, its like the fukwit that was on sydney news stating that women dress sayin they wanna be rape!!! WTF

All muslems think alike its the most discusting religion i have known, not many more religions are any better, but hay this war was based on religion! just like most of the others....

Casper · 03-05-2005, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadManz

All muslems think alike its the most discusting religion i have known, not many more religions are any better, but hay this war was based on religion! just like most of the others....

Thats not true at all. I know a number of muslims and they are all kind, generous and caring people who dispise what is happening as much as we do.
Claiming all muslims are the same is as blind as claimin all christians or jews are the same...clearly not true.