Look at what we found.

[Yaw]

I've had a rethink.

The water is from the swim in most probability.
Maybe a motor mechanic can shoot me down in flames here but although I now work in insurnace, I gave up my trade of small engine mechanic due to dermatitis. (small engine mechaninc entails mowers, chainsaws etc)
On a Briggs and Stratton engine the exhaust valve does lift slighty on the down stroke at btdc (bottom dead centre) and starts to close on the up stroke of the compression stroke that is to say whilst the engine is still sucking in the fuel air towards the bottom of that stroke the exhast valve opens slighty, hence allowing the exhast to suck for a brief moment.
The idea of this is for decpmression reasons and ease of starting (most being hand start engines ) so when you pull the cord its smooth not jerky in motion.
Having said all this, I am unsure if the engine in question would do this as it has a starter motor. If for not other purpose it may explain why I say it may have swallowed the water from the exhaust.

The only other place I can think its from but seems unlikley would be when the engine was steam cleaned by your guy he has put water straight up the air intake hose (I find this difficult to believe though)

I reckon Phsyco Chicken has it right with the hydrualic seizure from the swim

Please guys feel free to dump on my theory :P

[MO]

YAW,your probably right with the swim,if there was a big enough bow wave it could have gotten into the airbox and sucked upto and beyond the t/b.

As for the oil I'm thinking head gasket and what was said about the PCV system.

I'm only a bush mechanic (as in no trade) and anything after the XC i'm not real good on and wont touch anything with a computer,except to check oil,water etc.

Anyway am very interested to see what Luvin and Maddest find next.

[460cixy]

intresting. seems like you got riped. :( looking at the watter i would say its from the swim too and if it was sorted fast enough could have been saved long as there was no bent rods but with that much water i would say bent rod for sure :(
but mechanics like that give good ones a bad name part the reasion i dont do it any more. good luck with ripping him a new **** and engine swap.

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by Yaw

I've had a rethink.

The water is from the swim in most probability.
Maybe a motor mechanic can shoot me down in flames here but although I now work in insurnace, I gave up my trade of small engine mechanic due to dermatitis. (small engine mechaninc entails mowers, chainsaws etc)
On a Briggs and Stratton engine the exhaust valve does lift slighty on the down stroke at btdc (bottom dead centre) and starts to close on the up stroke of the compression stroke that is to say whilst the engine is still sucking in the fuel air towards the bottom of that stroke the exhast valve opens slighty, hence allowing the exhast to suck for a brief moment.
The idea of this is for decpmression reasons and ease of starting (most being hand start engines ) so when you pull the cord its smooth not jerky in motion.
Having said all this, I am unsure if the engine in question would do this as it has a starter motor. If for not other purpose it may explain why I say it may have swallowed the water from the exhaust.

Doesn't the Briggs and Stratton only do that when the engine is being started? If I remember correctly there's a lug on the exhaust cam that retracts once the engine is running.

The 4.0 has nothing like that, however it will have a bit of valve overlap, I very much doubt that it would be enough to suck water in. And water would of boiled in the cat (they run at about 600 degrees), and even if it did get into the combustion chamber via the exhaust I can't see that much ending up in the inlet manifold.

I'm willing to bet that water has entered the inlet manifold somehow and then been drawn into the engine, causing hydraulic lock, that's why your engine has siezed. It's possible a vacuum line has come off and water has been drawn in that way, as it seems unlikely water would get in through the TB if you said the water wasn't up to the doors. Remember guys, the intake on the EB is very high up, unless a hose clamp was loose on the intake pipe.

Have you drained the oil? I'd expect more water in there.

[Ghiadude]

i remember something about someone being stuck in pretty high flood waters a while back(might not be you) if it was that water could have stayed in the lower part of the intake pipe prior to the filter and stayed dormant until a high vacuum/uphill section( melbourne? hill? err....) when it sucke dthe water out of the pipe and the end result is story as you know it... far fetched but it could have happened.......

[LuvinmyEB]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

I'm willing to bet that water has entered the inlet manifold somehow and then been drawn into the engine, causing hydraulic lock, that's why your engine has siezed. It's possible a vacuum line has come off and water has been drawn in that way, as it seems unlikely water would get in through the TB if you said the water wasn't up to the doors. Remember guys, the intake on the EB is very high up, unless a hose clamp was loose on the intake pipe.

Have you drained the oil? I'd expect more water in there.

I'm betting that your right about the hydraulic lock Rob. Which could have been bloody fixed if the mechanics did what I asked them to in the first place.
:countdown

I'm NBG today, I've either chipped or badly bruised the bone in my right arm trying to undo a bolt that broke a rachet piece. :

We'll drain the oil after lunch, by looking at it with the dipstick there's no water, but that's not really a reliable indication. There was water in the 4th cylinder by the looks of the spark plug and in one of the sensors that is hooked up to the top front of the throttle body... see I just don't have a clue, I'll put a pic up soon. :nutsycuck

[LuvinmyEB]

More pics for ya...



Full size...
mmmm sludge and corrosion...



Full size..
mmmm cruddy and watery, the oil filter put in at the last service was really doing it's job.. I bet it's been there since the first time I had it serviced.



Full size..
Umm the sensor thingy I mentioned in my last post..

It's still good.. it's still good.. :

[svo347]

Sensor thingy is the ISC. Idle speed controller.

[Brent-EA Ghia]

So are you hoping the engine will run once the water and oil has been cleaned out of the intake system? Or was there more damage done to it as a result?

[LuvinmyEB]

Originally Posted by Brent-EA Ghia

So are you hoping the engine will run once the water and oil has been cleaned out of the intake system? Or was there more damage done to it as a result?

It's going no where FAST, seized engines seem to do that.

[Dez]

Originally Posted by LuvinmyEB

It's going no where FAST, seized engines seem to do that.

if its stuffed and its not fix-able, why are you working on it :

[LUXO_8]

i'd say there pulling it out to replace it dez

[Dez]

Originally Posted by MADNC_8

i'd say there pulling it out to replace it dez

ah sorry, i thought this was the replacement engine they were talking about....as they said they had it serviced recently etc....
my bad

[LuvinmyEB]

Originally Posted by MADNC_8

i'd say there pulling it out to replace it dez

Yah that's the idea, we're also pulling the block down so we could see what the actual problem was. So far it looks like stupid mechanics that don't know how to do their job or just like to rip people off. :

[GT-E]

Umm.... Before you start to strip the motor down, please try one thing.
Pull the plugs out and try to turn the motor over. You may find the car is not seized, but hydro locked and if you get the water out of the cylinders it will be ok.
I do recommend spraying WD40 through the plug hole to lubricate the bore while cranking it over.
You may find a simple solution will fix the problem. I would say your car had a big drink of water through the inlet and this has caused all of your problems.
I hope this helps

[LuvinmyEB]

Originally Posted by ZapXR6T

Umm.... Before you start to strip the motor down, please try one thing.
Pull the plugs out and try to turn the motor over. You may find the car is not seized, but hydro locked and if you get the water out of the cylinders it will be ok.
I do recommend spraying WD40 through the plug hole to lubricate the bore while cranking it over.
You may find a simple solution will fix the problem. I would say your car had a big drink of water through the inlet and this has caused all of your problems.
I hope this helps

To late it has seized due to hydraulic lock, there is water in the cylinders, well one as far as I can see so far. There's water through the whole block and has been since mid/late February thanks to my mechanic.

I rang him this morning and thought I'd use a different tactic, rather than accuse him of lying, I told him I was selling it because I couldn't be bothered swapping motors. I also told him that I had a couple of prospective buyers that wanted to know what he had done and what he though the problem was. If I had of told him I was going to rip him a new one, he could possibly erase everything that was "allegedly" checked from the database.

The things he said he had checked:

• pulled the spark plugs out.
• checked the fuel filter and air intake.
• taken the torque converter cover off!?!?!?

Basically he swore that he had checked the whole top end of the car and his words were "There isn't a drop of water in it."
According to him it's a problem and the bottom end of the motor.

Now that I have that info he's going to be the one with a problem with his bottom end when I've finished with him. :gren:

[EA2BA]

taken the torque converter cover off!?!?!?

There is a plate you can remove, why you would bother I dont know, it wont help anything ulness you want to inspect the fly wheel.

[LuvinmyEB]

Originally Posted by Dellboy999

There is a plate you can remove, why you would bother I dont know, it wont help anything ulness you want to inspect the fly wheel.

Dellboy, he's talking through his @rse, he didn't look at a damn thing, and why the hell would you do something like take the torque convertor cover off if you're looking for water??

In reality that is one of the last things you would try to find out why a motor has seized.

[Psycho Chicken]

Don't TOUCH the bolts on the torque converter cover. Get photos of the bolts nice and covered in gunk.

[LuvinmyEB]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Don't TOUCH the bolts on the torque converter cover. Get photos of the bolts nice and covered in gunk.

Will do, actually I have pictures of everything before and after we touched it. ;)

[Phil]

If he was checking to see why the engine was siezed, then he would have taken off the convertor cover to make sure the convertor bolts havent come loose and jammed the motor from turning, dunno about looking for water but. Sounds like a mongrel who didnt do his job properly, take him to consumer protection.

[Sundeep]

So when are you gunna rip this **** a new *** hole?

Sundeep

[T3man]

I must be missing some part of the story.....

From everything you've said from everything that I can see the engine has suffered hydraulic lock. THAT IS NOT SIEZED. Different thing alltogether.

Didn't you drive into the water? Or did your mechanic?

At what time did the mechanic check the car/engine? Was it before or after the dunking?

What I'm getting at quite frankly is that the damage has most probably been caused by yourself NOT the mechanic. AND, if you'd had the problem diagnosed properly before pulling it all apart maybe as Zap has said there isn't that much internal damage anyway. It usually takes more than cranking speed to bend a rod.

Anyhow, when I get those Qs clarified I'll be able to make a more accurate assessment.

[Psycho Chicken]

I think the problem is the mechanic hasn't checked the engine like he said he has, otherwise he would of noticed this.

[LuvinmyEB]

Originally Posted by T3man

I must be missing some part of the story.....

From everything you've said from everything that I can see the engine has suffered hydraulic lock. THAT IS NOT SIEZED. Different thing alltogether.

Didn't you drive into the water? Or did your mechanic?

At what time did the mechanic check the car/engine? Was it before or after the dunking?

What I'm getting at quite frankly is that the damage has most probably been caused by yourself NOT the mechanic. AND, if you'd had the problem diagnosed properly before pulling it all apart maybe as Zap has said there isn't that much internal damage anyway. It usually takes more than cranking speed to bend a rod.

Anyhow, when I get those Qs clarified I'll be able to make a more accurate assessment.

Long story short, the starter was able to crank the engine over when it was towed to the mechanics and I asked them to diagnose the problem. When I got it back they told me that the engine had seized and that there was not a drop of water anywhere, I needed a new engine and they would do it for $2500-. When I got it back the starter motor couldn't even crank the motor yet I still had power and the starter motor wasn't at fault.

It wasn't until we started pulling the motor down last weekend in order to find what the fault was and to make it easier to pull the motor out that we discovered that in fact the airbox and entire intake system was full of water. We certainly did not expect to find as much water as we did after being told there was not a drop of water in it.

[LuvinmyEB]

Originally Posted by Sundeep

So when are you gunna rip this **** a new *** hole?

Sundeep

I have an appointment with my solicitor tomorrow as consumer affairs were as helpful as tits on a bull! Even after explaining what happened three times. _

[Steve_T]

Yeah, the way I understand it, the car was taken to the mechanic AFTER it was dunked to see what the problem was including checking for water in the engine (because of the dunking), which he said he did - obviously he did not or it wouldn't still be full of water (and in such obvious places too). If he had of done his job he could have got the water out and got the engine going and probably nothing would have had time to rust/sieze properly so it'd all be good instead of needing a new motor now.

Steve.

[Steve_T]

Doh - took a few minutes too long to post that

[LuvinmyEB]

Originally Posted by Steve_T

Doh - took a few minutes too long to post that

Doesn't matter, but yes that is what happened. ;)

[LuvinmyEB]

Does this look like it's been opened to anyone?



Full size pic...