New 5lt in FG XR8's? - Page 2

JPFS1 · 26-10-2011, 11:52 PM

not too sure.

The only reason I can see why they wouldn't, would be that if it doesn't achieve the goals they set.. (what ever they may be).

I think it's highly likely that the engine without its DiVCT etc wouldn't be up to the task and that they are waiting to implement it when the appropriate changes are made.

My fingers are crossed.

jpd80 · 27-10-2011, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPFS1

not too sure.

The only reason I can see why they wouldn't, would be that if it doesn't achieve the goals they set.. (what ever they may be).

I think it's highly likely that the engine without its DiVCT etc wouldn't be up to the task and that they are waiting to implement it when the appropriate changes are made.

My fingers are crossed.

I wonder if this would be a way to integrate Falcon and Mustang electrical systems,
not completely but a start down the road to more in sourcing in connection with other regions..

**Luke Plaizier** · 28-10-2011, 10:58 AM

Appropriate changes? Sounds PCMish to me.

I'm assuming then that you mean the new PCM in the Territory will be making the crossover to FGII... even though the EPAS won't do so (yet?).

Lukeyson

gtfpv · 28-10-2011, 11:25 AM

thats a cop out and sterrs me clear of brute utes , there is no such car out there so it shouldnt exist on the track . the fg ute should have the 5.4 290 engine in it , as thats what the xr8 came out with . 2ndly bout time the bf 260 was replaced with the 290 fg ute . i know the bfxr8 260 Boss is pushing 300kws though , soooooo . i dont know what difference the fg 290 would make at all . but an FG UTE 5 Litre na coyote v8 is a pipe dream and may as well have pulse jet fitted IMHO. sorry

Falc'man · 28-10-2011, 11:42 AM

The BF XR8s have been running the Boss 290s for years.

(Edit, in the Brutes)

StrikeTwiceXR6 · 28-10-2011, 11:46 AM

There is a bit of "I wish Ford would bring back the XR8" talk on this forum".
1. A GS is the same as an XR8, but you get more for your dollar with the GS (retail for the same price).
2. You get a truck load more performance potential for your dollar from the GS.
3. Bring back the XR8 in it's old guise, YEAH RIGHT! I fail to believe that the Ford consumer had it better when the XR8 was around.

jpd80 · 28-10-2011, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

thats a cop out and sterrs me clear of brute utes , there is no such car out there so it shouldnt exist on the track . the fg ute should have the 5.4 290 engine in it , as thats what the xr8 came out with . 2ndly bout time the bf 260 was replaced with the 290 fg ute . i know the bfxr8 260 Boss is pushing 300kws though , soooooo . i dont know what difference the fg 290 would make at all . but an FG UTE 5 Litre na coyote v8 is a pipe dream and may as well have pulse jet fitted IMHO. sorry

You should be sorry.
The guy decided to run an engine that's obviously got a capacity disadvantage
compared to BF 5.4 Boss and Holden 6.0 Chev, he went through the right
channels and got approval.

We now have a showcase vehicle that demonstrates what a 5.0 Mustang
engine can do as compared to the 5.4 Boss and Holden V8.

PS, 5.0 Coyote isn't a pipe dream, it's a corporate engine......

Rockape · 28-10-2011, 12:25 PM

So do we have another racing category that has nothing to do with the car in the dealership?

jpd80 · 28-10-2011, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockape

So do we have another racing category that has nothing to do with the car in the dealership?

One exception in a full field hardly makes the racing category unrelated to a dealership,
not when Ford could well be considering a resumption of XR8 sedan/Ute with a crate engine...

BTW, Car of the future in V8 SC will be allowing twin cam 5.0 for Fords......
a perfect opportunity for the new FPV 5.0 and a 5.0 XR8 to cash in...

SteveJH · 28-10-2011, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

BTW, Car of the future in V8 SC will be allowing twin cam 5.0 for Fords......
a perfect opportunity for the new FPV 5.0 and a 5.0 XR8 to cash in...

And hopefully a cheaper and more reliable engine at those powerlevels since its already built to rev.

jpd80 · 28-10-2011, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

And hopefully a cheaper and more reliable engine at those powerlevels since its already built to rev.

I have a feeling that this might work out well in Ford's favor especially if cars get lighter too...

AMGC63 · 28-10-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

I have a feeling that this might work out well in Ford's favor especially if cars get lighter too...

Unfortunately it wont matter, V8SC's and COTF have class specified min weight limits as well as weight distribution % rules, so even if it was lighter it would have to carry ballast at the front to compensate.

If it makes more power/torque it will be limited.. You get the picture.

Cant ever see them switching from the current engines as they'd be far cheaper than starting from scratch and the class rules wont allow any engine to have an advantage..

The utes actually have a similar parity system which will be adjusted to control and advantage/disadvantage the coyote has.

FPV8U · 28-10-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

thats a cop out and sterrs me clear of brute utes , there is no such car out there so it shouldnt exist on the track . the fg ute should have the 5.4 290 engine in it , as thats what the xr8 came out with . 2ndly bout time the bf 260 was replaced with the 290 fg ute . i know the bfxr8 260 Boss is pushing 300kws though , soooooo . i dont know what difference the fg 290 would make at all . but an FG UTE 5 Litre na coyote v8 is a pipe dream and may as well have pulse jet fitted IMHO. sorry

Agreed, Brutes are meant to be a production based series they should have got the Ford runners to update to a FG Body and run the current Boss 5.4L untill a replacement model is released.

If Ford chooses not to build a N/A 5.0L XR8 fullstop they should have upgraded to the FPV GS to run the S/C 5.0.

A "Made up" model takes the series down the wrong road IMO.

AMGC63 · 28-10-2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Agreed, Brutes are meant to be a production based series they should have got the Ford runners to update to a FG Body and run the current Boss 5.4L untill a replacement model is released.

If Ford chooses not to build a N/A 5.0L XR8 fullstop they should have upgraded to the FPV GS to run the S/C 5.0.

A "Made up" model takes the series down the wrong road IMO.

Unfortunately its been like that since the beginning, the First BA's used in the series still ran 220 windsors. The 5.4 wasn't introduced till some time later, BF from memory.

They're introducing the N/A coyote for ongoing supply reasons, you cant buy new 5.4 Boss engines anymore.
It may or may not be an indication of the future, id lean towards simple supply convenience.

darkside · 28-10-2011, 02:40 PM

not sure how you guys read into this but i would be happy to see the ute series allow both ford and holden to use their s/c engines ,ford can go on about their gs all they like but at the end of the day its an xr8 with coyote motor, great, i am sure hsv have one of there chevs running about with a s/c .i know as a bf fpv owner i wouldn't trade my ute in on one i personally like the look of the fpv ,but would rather see production ute out there and like previously stated i don't know of any production falcon utes out there non s/c...doc

gtfpv · 28-10-2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

The BF XR8s have been running the Boss 290s for years.

(Edit, in the Brutes)

well i didnt know that , but i dont know how they can do this , it does not seem right

AMGC63 · 28-10-2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkside

not sure how you guys read into this but i would be happy to see the ute series allow both ford and holden to use their s/c engines ,ford can go on about their gs all they like but at the end of the day its an xr8 with coyote motor, great, i am sure hsv have one of there chevs running about with a s/c .i know as a bf fpv owner i wouldn't trade my ute in on one i personally like the look of the fpv ,but would rather see production ute out there and like previously stated i don't know of any production falcon utes out there non s/c...doc

Holden don't have a S/C engine in any of their utes, nor do HSV.

AMGC63 · 28-10-2011, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

well i didnt know that , but i dont know how they can do this , it does not seem right

Yep, and technically they're not 290's either, they have a custom exhaust, intake and tune to match the Holden 6.0l output anyway.

Falc'man · 28-10-2011, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Yep, and technically they're not 290's either, they have a custom exhaust, intake and tune to match the Holden 6.0l output anyway.

When you say "technically" do you mean they don't have the 290 internals? eg cam spec, CR, etc. Or do you mean they're brought up to 290kW with bolt ons?

Falc'man · 28-10-2011, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

well i didnt know that , but i dont know how they can do this , it does not seem right

As pointed out earlier by AMGC63 it's a matter of having what's available from the OEM. There were no longer any 260s being made from late '07/early '08 so they had to use something.

The bottom line is they're all pushing out about the same power and have the same weight. They need to do this otherwise it would end up a one-brand race as only one type would most likely have clear advantage over the other, and there's certainly no way they'll get the manufacturers pouring dollars into their production utes for the sake of this category.

SteveJH · 28-10-2011, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

When you say "technically" do you mean they don't have the 290 internals? eg cam spec, CR, etc. Or do you mean they're brought up to 290kW with bolt ons?

He's saying they are the 290 engine.

However, they have modified induction (CAI) and Exhaust along with a tune.

The result of this is that they actually have more then 290kW of power.

AMGC63 · 28-10-2011, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

When you say "technically" do you mean they don't have the 290 internals? eg cam spec, CR, etc. Or do you mean they're brought up to 290kW with bolt ons?

oops, yeah, 290 parts i guess. Some are bittsa's, others 290 spec, regardless if they start as 260's or 290's from ford they are all controlled to make the same RWKW, about 240-250 from distant memory, certainly more than 290 at the FW.

AMGC63 · 28-10-2011, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

As pointed out earlier by AMGC63 it's a matter of having what's available from the OEM. There were no longer any 260s being made from late '07/early '08 so they had to use something.

The bottom line is they're all pushing out about the same power and have the same weight. They need to do this otherwise it would end up a one-brand race as only one type would most likely have clear advantage over the other, and there's certainly no way they'll get the manufacturers pouring dollars into their production utes for the sake of this category.

Yep, spot on.

jjw · 28-10-2011, 03:22 PM

On the nulon ad craig says they have 310kw (it was on tv, it must be true...)

I can see how they would set parity on a power to weight basis, but i wonder how they are going to sort the torque characteristics between a 5.0 4v engine versus a 6.0 2v engine (the latter should monster the former in the midrange, all other things being equal)

AMGC63 · 28-10-2011, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjw

On the nulon ad craig says they have 310kw (it was on tv, it must be true...)

I can see how they would set parity on a power to weight basis, but i wonder how they are going to sort the torque characteristics between a 5.0 4v engine versus a 6.0 2v engine (the latter should monster the former in the midrange, all other things being equal)

Everything including power delivery is controlled by a motec ecu with custom tune. Yep, they dont even use the factory ecu.

jjw · 28-10-2011, 03:31 PM

aha, good point, torque limiting could easily achieve a predetermined curve

jpd80 · 28-10-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Unfortunately it wont matter, V8SC's and COTF have class specified min weight limits as well as weight distribution % rules, so even if it was lighter it would have to carry ballast at the front to compensate.

There was a problem with weight distribution with the iron 5.4 Boss, the 5.0 allows shifting that weight around to best advantage.

Quote:

If it makes more power/torque it will be limited.. You get the picture.

It's the power band with VCT and better cylinder heads design for NA use.
Bottom end and Mid range power...you get the picture

Quote:

Cant ever see them switching from the current engines as they'd be far cheaper than starting from scratch and the class rules wont allow any engine to have an advantage..
The utes actually have a similar parity system which will be adjusted to control and advantage/disadvantage the coyote has.

Couldn't ever see FPV building 5.4 4Vs from scratch either but here we are....
And we are talking about a "crate engine" that's mass produced in the states...
Weight balance is better with the Coyote as mentioned above, small changes reap big rewards...

*Before we get all excited one way or another, let's see if Ford follows through with a NA 5.0 or decides to hold back....

dimka100 · 28-10-2011, 04:32 PM

The category is designed for both makers to have identical performance, the point is to differentially between driver skill and strategy rather than pure car performance, regardless of what engines they use the cars will still perform the same …

Custom engine parts, custom electronics, and weight ballasts are all used to gain parity between makers …

jpd80 · 28-10-2011, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimka100

Custom engine parts, custom electronics, and weight ballasts are all used to gain parity between makers …

Seek parity yes but because one Ute has a longer wheelbase and cart springs,
it's going to act differently to a ute with shorter wheelbase and IRS rear.

FPV8U · 28-10-2011, 04:48 PM

All parity adjustments aside, it does give me a good laugh when our Nose heavy, Iron Block, POS Boss engine that makes no grunt with Leaf spring rear end show the way to Holdens Corvette Powered, IRS enabled showpony.