holden leaving australia?

[Bundy]

If they can't make and sell cars profitablely, then they're not as successful as they think. I'd rather not see my TAX dollars fund a FAILING company, car maker or other. As for the workers, like in any other industry re train, re skill, move on, its not the end of it, I've done it, picking up new skills along the way.

[Hally]

Seriously, a lot of you guys need to think about the situation. Two points from me:

1. Holden being sooks. From a business perspective, Holden are being industry leaders in the fact that they are lobbying public and media support in regards to a number governement decisions that are seriously impacting the local car industry, including closing the Green car Innovation Fund, Carbon Tax, Free Tade agrrements (that are not fair). In any other sector (mining, financial etc) business state their thoughts in the hope it is advantagous for them and there shareholders. I hate to say but I think Ford have given up on manufacturing in Australia and are resigned to closing down Broady in 2016.

2. Whilst the car industry gets funding from state and federal governments, this is not different from other industries. Lets take the scenario that Holden pulled out of local manufacturing and all of a sudden 5,000 (Holden plus suppliers) are suddenly on employment benefits? What would that cost a year? Adelaide is in no position to pick up that level of unemployment. then by extension what happens to property prices in Adelaide when people default on mortgages etc? It becomes a spiral situation.

The argument is a lot more complex than 'Holden are sooks' or 'just are angling for more money'.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Gobes32]

The funny thing is that Ford are for all intents and purposes still a profitable business case and yet they still want to close the plant. Maybe they have decided it's too hard to manufacture in a country where governments are constantly backflipping.........?

[charles_wif_xf]

Holden ceasing manufacturing in Australia is bad news for all the automakers here. They pull up stumps, so do Ford and Toyota as the economies of scale disappear that keep the component suppliers going. As others have alluded to, there are potentially 250,000 jobs at stake...

[kaniSS]

Doesn't matter what people say the day will come when Holden, Ford and other manufacturers move offshore. You would have to have rocks in your head to pay workers 60k a year when you can pay 10-20k overseas. Add the uncertain Carbon Tax to the mix and I believe the slow process has already begun with articles like this.

[MAD]

What makes an employee at a car plant more important than an employee at the milk bar down the road? Why should the gov intervene to prop up these companies that arent working?
If I started a small business, hired a couple of people but wasn't very business savvy and spent too much on bad ideas, should the gov help me out?

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by Paxton

No, not good riddance. Firstly, Holden employ about 5,000 Australians. Secondly, if Holden pull up stumps, so will Ford, and Toyota, leaving 250,000 Australians out of work. Car manufacturing is a huge industry in Australia, and employ many, many people.

No Holden = No Ford. Cruze may be losing Holden bucketloads, and I don't like their cars, but I wish them no ill.

Not to mention the manufacturing companies that build clusters and other car parts for these companies in Australia, Continental, Australian Arrow, Bosch, and Siemens to name a few...

Not too mention, ford are surviving on half weeks while Holden is back to full weeks, are hiring more people, and we're supplying them with more product than we anticipated over the coming months. Holden aren't going anywhere

[charles_wif_xf]

Originally Posted by MAD

What makes an employee at a car plant more important than an employee at the milk bar down the road? Why should the gov intervene to prop up these companies that arent working?
If I started a small business, hired a couple of people but wasn't very business savvy and spent too much on bad ideas, should the gov help me out?

Thats the flipside of the coin. In my opinion, govco should not be intervening when things go pear shaped within private companies at all, no matter how many jobs are at stake. Corporatism is such a fickle beast, capitalist when the profits are rolling in, socialist when things aren't so peachy...

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by bungarra

Probably want some government protection or is the Caprice cop car going to be made in Canada or the US?

it was always intended to be built in north america. australia is only a stop-gap to get the jump on Ford taurus police interceptor.


what will happen? my guess is they'll all pull out and import them fully, then the econometric downturn will make the govt pay to set up a new Australian car manufacturing industry (eg another Holden) and so it all goes around again.

[auxr]

Originally Posted by Hally

Seriously, a lot of you guys need to think about the situation. Two points from me:

1. Holden being sooks. From a business perspective, Holden are being industry leaders in the fact that they are lobbying public and media support in regards to a number governement decisions that are seriously impacting the local car industry, including closing the Green car Innovation Fund, Carbon Tax, Free Tade agrrements (that are not fair). In any other sector (mining, financial etc) business state their thoughts in the hope it is advantagous for them and there shareholders. I hate to say but I think Ford have given up on manufacturing in Australia and are resigned to closing down Broady in 2016.

2. Whilst the car industry gets funding from state and federal governments, this is not different from other industries. Lets take the scenario that Holden pulled out of local manufacturing and all of a sudden 5,000 (Holden plus suppliers) are suddenly on employment benefits? What would that cost a year? Adelaide is in no position to pick up that level of unemployment. then by extension what happens to property prices in Adelaide when people default on mortgages etc? It becomes a spiral situation.

The argument is a lot more complex than 'Holden are sooks' or 'just are angling for more money'.

Cheers,

Andrew

Cudo's to this ^^^^ - I for one sure as hell hope that Holden remains, no if's or but's about it.

[stang65]

It probably more political in the sense of scaring the government into giving the car industry more support. I doubt they would go Anywhere.

[MAD]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1226083056275

HOLDEN will lose its Cruze small-car program unless the federal government pledges millions to secure the next generation model within 12 months, the company said yesterday.

Cancelling Cruze, which was secured with $149 million from the Green Car Innovation Fund, would also jeopardise the company's Adelaide factory because demand for the Commodore large car was inadequate to keep it going, it said.

GM Holden managing director Mike Devereux said the green car scheme had worked perfectly and unless there was a replacement for it Australia would miss out on future investment. "We've just starting building Cruze here and over the next 12 months or so we'll have to make a decision on the next generation of that product," he said. "The business case would certainly not be as positive without any co-investment. Doing the investment in this country would have less positive financial outcomes than doing it in other low-cost places."

Holden is understood to have only small profit margins on the car, which was previously imported from South Korea, but Cruze has been essential to keep its factory running as Commodore sales declined.

Ian Jones, the federal secretary of the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union's vehicle division, said the industry had a right to complain after government changed its rules on support for the car industry.

"The government should not underestimate the signals, from that reversal of policy, sent to overseas investors," he said.

"Car manufacturers invest billions and billions of dollars in this country on the understandings that were given to them around the Green Car Innovation Fund."

However, South Australian Industry Minister Tom Koutsantonis said the government had been justified in axing the scheme.

"I think the fund has run its course. I think we've benefited as much as we can out of that."

Regardless of that, he said, the Rann government would always support Holden, which employs 2700 workers at the Elizabeth plant near Adelaide.

Federal Industry Minister Kim Carr said the government was aware of the need for certainty and would be meeting General Motors and Ford in the US this week.

That's what happens when you set a benchmark price with a Korean import and expect to be able to build it in Australia and sell it at the same price and still turn a profit.

Sounds like a scare tactic, to get the fund re-instated, to me.

Although I do agree that the green car fund should have never been removed, especially considering the gov is so keen on reducing our carbon output.

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by Hally

From a business perspective, Holden are being industry leaders in the fact that they are lobbying public and media support in regards to a number governement decisions that are seriously impacting the local car industry, including closing the Green car Innovation Fund, Carbon Tax, Free Tade agrrements (that are not fair).

Excellent point! Remember it is not the car manufactures that keep moving the goal posts. They are already up against cars like the great wall where pollution is a feature of their manufacturing process and is not factored into the cost of making that car (along with other things we take for granted such as good OH&S programs and RDO's and payed sick and maternity leave etc). If Euro X111V eventually comes and the carbon tax is in full swing, who do you think will have to pay for it? How can local car makers compete when there is no such thing as a level playing field?

Originally Posted by MAD

What makes an employee at a car plant more important than an employee at the milk bar down the road? Why should the gov intervene to prop up these companies that arent working?
If I started a small business, hired a couple of people but wasn't very business savvy and spent too much on bad ideas, should the gov help me out?

If you keep the mass employed, then most of the rest of the work force can keep their job to. If you have mass unemployment then it leads to even more unemployment, as people cannot afford to spend any more, it is as simple as that. And anyway since when did the local milk bar have to contend with an expensive ever changing landscape governed by continuously changing ADR's and other bureaucratic poppycock?

Bud Bud

[falconnut]

I was jokeing why do
you think I bought a aussie made car? I was going to get a holden but I noticed the au had less problems more power and better fuel econemy

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

The funny thing is that Ford are for all intents and purposes still a profitable business case and yet they still want to close the plant. Maybe they have decided it's too hard to manufacture in a country where governments are constantly backflipping.........?

Or maybe the internal politics means that engineering teams and plants on much larger budgets in the US, can't pull of similar outcomes for the same budgets and similar wages. Best to get rid of the cause of the embarrassment in Australia.

Problem solved and everyone's empire is left in tact except for Ford Australia, which no one outside Australia knew about anyway.

Hopefully that pesky Commodore won't go stateside again as a full release to the public before Falcons demise and raise the bar for what Americans expect and have them asking about its competitor the Falcon. Not designed or made by us, so best to kill it now before the internet is full of "why isn't Falcon here' stories again.

Yes I am being cynical, but I suspect there is a grain of truth to what I am saying.

Ford US have never liked Ford Australia. It was always the inconvenient truth on what you can really do with very little money.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

Excellent point! Remember it is not the car manufactures that keep moving the goal posts. They are already up against cars like the great wall where pollution is a feature of their manufacturing process and is not factored into the cost of making that car (along with other things we take for granted such as good OH&S programs and RDO's and payed sick and maternity leave etc). If Euro X111V eventually comes and the carbon tax is in full swing, who do you think will have to pay for it? How can local car makers compete when there is no such thing as a level playing field?
If you keep the mass employed, then most of the rest of the work force can keep their job to. If you have mass unemployment then it leads to even more unemployment, as people cannot afford to spend any more, it is as simple as that. And anyway since when did the local milk bar have to contend with an expensive ever changing landscape governed by continuously changing ADR's and other bureaucratic poppycock?

Bud Bud

The running costs of a milk bar in VIC will be increased thanks to govco for desal plant, along with the increases in services we've already seen, and more we will see.

Bigger numbers of people is the main difference.
The problem facing Australian car makers is not policies dictated by the gov (except for import tax). It is the high price of labour. If you cant work within your bounds, without handouts and grants, then it's clearly not viable.

A very black & white view, I know, but sometimes you need to cut the crap and get back to basics.

[Gobes32]

Why do people think auto workers are on 60K+.......

It's actually 48K and Ford are working 3 day weeks and Holden were one week on, one week off for a while there too.........

[burnz]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Or maybe the internal politics means that engineering teams and plants on much larger budgets in the US, can't pull of similar outcomes for the same budgets and similar wages. Best to get rid of the cause of the embarrassment in Australia.

Problem solved and everyone's empire is left in tact except for Ford Australia, which no one outside Australia knew about anyway.

Hopefully that pesky Commodore won't go stateside again as a full release to the public before Falcons demise and raise the bar for what Americans expect and have them asking about its competitor the Falcon. Not designed or made by us, so best to kill it now before the internet is full of "why isn't Falcon here' stories again.

Yes I am being cynical, but I suspect there is a grain of truth to what I am saying.

Ford US have never liked Ford Australia. It was always the inconvenient truth on what you can really do with very little money.

sig worthy if you dont mind

[Express]

It’s all a Red Herring as far as I’m concerned.

Still in the interest of public debate, I’m waiting for all the new car buyers to have a say. They and government grants are what keeps the local car industry afloat.

[DoreSlamR]

What's a Cruze worth? About $22,000?

I wonder how the people who earn over $100,000 feel about their tax dollars paying for entire fleets of Cruzes?

yes I know its not the bets way of looking at it but tax is tax.

[flappist]

Two observations from this forum:

1) most of the people who scream the loudest about moving manufacture offshore are not driving new(ish) falcadores purchased new by them.

2) the most common theme on any thread about new falcons is too expensive/crap build quality which is purely a symptom of them being built in Australia.

While you are paying $60k a year to people and building in small, low output, inefficient factories the end product will ALWAYS be like it is now.

To give you an idea of manufacturing capability, the entire Yamaha motorcycle production for a year for Australia is done in the equivalent of ONE SHIFT.

[bungarra]

My fleet vehicl is coming up for replacement, company choices:

Subaru Outback
Hilux
Triton
Navara
Santa Fe

I asked about the Territory and was told it was to expensive and fleet management company can't get the deal that they can get off the other manufacturers.
i really wanted to the Territory for its ride height for mine sites and practicallity as the sites I do you only need AWD for access. Maybe Ford should push fleet management companies as I know I would prefer Aussie manufactured.

i would even take a Commodore Wagon for work purposes over an import.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Ford US have never liked Ford Australia. It was always the inconvenient truth on what you can really do with very little money.

This is very very wrong.

Explain Ranger (T6), the Indian Feista, and a rumored ok already for a small car for China.

The investment for the PG was not done by chance or charity.

Manufacturing is a different ball game, and aslong as FoA are paying their own bills your a little bit right, the US wont care. Will the US care if they drop the Falcon and it copes bad press which will effect all the cars in the range..I would hazard a guess and say yes.

Are are not a massive market, but we punch well above our weight, FoA was not called the centre of excellence for the region nilly willy. Have a look at the growth expected around us, this is why investment has been made.

Like any industry there are no guarantees.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by flappist

While you are paying $60k a year to people.

Where is it quoted anywhere that auto workers are on 60K???? Please, the next person to mention it please provide proof.........

[Gobes32]

The reason why people will no longer manufacture in Australia? It is expensive due to workcover, safety laws, mandatory training and all other rights that workers have fought for over the years. So they go to China, Inia, Vietnam etc because it is much cheaper to do it there.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Where is it quoted anywhere that auto workers are on 60K???? Please, the next person to mention it please provide proof.........

What you think they are on more?

Remember that the cost of an employee is not what you see in your pay packet.

What you get in your hand
plus tax paid
plus loading
plus super
plus workers comp
plus plus plus........

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by flappist

What you think they are on more?

Remember that the cost of an employee is not what you see in your pay packet.

What you get in your hand
plus tax paid
plus loading
plus super
plus workers comp
plus plus plus........

I very much agree however you will find that auto workers at Ford are on 48K a year and currently being paid for 4 days a week, so even less than that figure. And in the post above I mentioned that all the extras on top of an employees pay are what makes our labour costs so high. I wonder if Chinese workers receive superannuation contributions? Not very likely.........

[Gobes32]

My grandfather used to tell me that it's not about us coming down to their level, it's about us dragging them up to our level. Demand better conditions and better pay for your overseas counterparts.

[MurdoK]

Originally Posted by Falcman0o7

Holden is safe, We can't have australias best car maker going anywhere! oh no!

Booo. I was gonna see em off at the airport too

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

My grandfather used to tell me that it's not about us coming down to their level, it's about us dragging them up to our level. Demand better conditions and better pay for your overseas counterparts.

Solidarity brother.

And China is in the same economic disaster as us....or Europe....or USA?

It is always amusing that those who want the higher wages are the same who want to pay as little as possible for their cars.

How about a car industry support tax?

All sales of second hand cars attract an extra 10% that goes towards supporting the local car industry and paying our auto workers?

Surely that would be popular........