Peter Brock overrated?

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by ehast13

1 - Jim Richards
2 - Peter Brock
=3 - Frank Gardner/Pete Geoghan
=4 Mark Skaife
=4 - Allan Moffat
5 - Dick JOhnson/Harry Firth/Tander
6 - Colin Bond/Bob Jane/Allan GRice
7 - Bob Morris (pre 81 accident)/Craig Lowndes (wil davison and jamie whincup? too soon to tell)
8 - Glenn Seton/Steve JOhnson/Bruce McPhee
9 - Todd Kelly/Doug Chivas
10 - Rick Kelly/John Goss

with all due respects, i think you have just looked at a who's who of racing. steve johnson, will davison, garth tander, rick kelly?????? two have won 1 round between them, the other two had the best car by a mile
regarding richo at bathurst 74, he finished 5 laps behind kb/goss. allowing for the fact brock led by six laps when his car expired, that means richo would have finished 11 laps behind. that would be due to others not finishing compared to speed. in 1976 richo started sandown, did not lead to my knowledge and was in the pits by lap 15 before goss had a drive. at bathurst their car did not lead but made it through the first stint with goss at the wheel, and around 20-30 laps later the clutch went with richo at the wheel. richo was a great driver and your comparisons with brock are spot on, but it seems history does not portray your views early in his career, especially that goss blew it up. i would rate him in my top five maybe third or fourth
other names are probably correct - bruce mcphee, pete geoghan etc.
the difference between most of the drivers you have mentioned and the likes of moff, brock, craig, richo, johnson sr are that the five mentioned won many times in titles, bathurst, sandown etc.
i am too young (slightly) to have seen jane, firth, pete, mcphee etc. at their best but they do seem to have been the goods - along with beechey, matich, chivas etc

[ehast13]

Richo started Sandown from fourth or fifth and was leading by lap two.

I left Marcos ambrose out by accident.

I really dislike Rick Kelly but he seems to be decent driver. Wil and Jamie are 'wild cards' - would like to see what the future holds.

It is funny to see though that Richo invariably hit the front when given good cars. It was commented at the time that he was quicker than Goss.

I guess it is the 1988 season that I look at when he and Brock were in the same machinery. Richo was reigning ATCC Champ. Brock was reigning Bathurst champ but Brock rarely matched Richo (especially in qualifying).

I reckon they made the most formidable bathurst pairing ever - Even ahead of Johnson/Bowe, Lowndes/Whincup, Brabham/Moss, Goss Bartlett or even Percy/Walkinshaw

Your thoughts?

[SeXC]

im well ****ed off my post was deleted. If you were there you could of disagreed.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by ehast13

Richo started Sandown from fourth or fifth and was leading by lap two.

richo did start from fourth and he may well have led. from my records bob morris led for the first two hours (probably not the whole of the first two hours) - but richo was in the pits by lap 15 by my records. i am going by the bathurst book that only offers a couple of paragraphs on sandown
i am not in any way putting jim down, just suggesting it was not goss that broke the car in both those races. jim has always had good mechanical sympathy so it was probably the car not jim that was the problem

for what it is worth my drivers are

1 moff/brock
3 craig
4 richo
5 skaife

richo is difficult to place because he did not seem to polarise the fans as the others did. this is a harsh judgement i know, but he seemed more consistent than dominating. that however was probably just his smooth style and relaxed manner
he obviously has the record with 7 great race wins, 4 attc's and at least one sandown

either way, all those drivers have proved themselves (the top four especially) time and time again, whether in a good or not so good car - or made a car that should have been mediocre into a good car. and they could all dominate a full season or a particular meeting

once again, i did not see jane, firth, matich, mcphee, the geoghan's, beechey etc. in their prime, so cannot have any idea on how to judge them. reading about them just gives another person's opinion and is not always accurate

[ehast13]

This is the most satisying topic I 've ever brought up. I am really enjoying some of the well thought out responses.

I used to hate richo (basically because of bathurst 1992) but then I got over it.

Richo was pretty successful in NZ before coming out here, but I would have liked to have seen him as Moffat's team mate in 76/77. He really got noticed under the guiding hand of hdt and the Frank Gardner.

I remember speaking to Brock in 1995 and I asked him who his toighest competitor was and he said Moffat because he did everything he could t win (car prep, tactics etc). I asked him who the fastest competitor was and he said Richo but didn't elaborate. He didn't hesistate either.

I guess Richo wasn't the best at setting up a car (according to Gardner and Fred Gibson intrerviews I've seen) where as Moffat tested til the cows came home. I magine a moffat/richards combo from about 1976 til 1988 (when the Moff retired).

I think I might start another thread re ultimate car/team/driver combinations

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by ehast13

I used to hate richo (basically because of bathurst 1992) but then I got over it.

it was not richo's fault in 92. the officials reacted and then cheated/made wrong decisions when the best wet weather driver crashed the best wet weathered car
how many noticed the red flag only came out straight after richo crashed for the second time. having said that when richo came over mcphillamy with his wheel hanging off, some ford fans looked to the sky and said thanks, i just said they would stop the race
and when the red flag came out, the race is stopped - make your way to parc ferme if safe to do so
if the red flag was out, why were the yellows as well. they trundled around behind the safety car for two laps even though the race was stopped. maybe those two laps should have counted for the race. yet again the officials, in (but not only) australian motor racing have no idea on the rules

[Rev28K]

Don’t forget he’d also just been told that his kiwi mate Denny Hulme had died from a heart attack.

Bit of an emotional roller coaster – thought that they’d lost the race, then told that they won it on count back, then told that a friend had carked it.

In the latest Tarmac magazine he says that his co-driver Skaife was hiding tinnies in his team parka and was going to piff some out at the pi$$ed bogan crowd if they kept up their behaviour. Luckily they pulled the pin on that idea. Richo knew that he was winding up the crowd but as far as I could see he was just responding to their aggro.

[Laminge]

Originally Posted by SeXC

im well ****ed off my post was deleted. If you were there you could of disagreed.

Your post wasnt deleted, dont let facts get in the way of a good story!

[Buddy 1]

Originally Posted by JC

Look, wheile you are entitled to your opinion, it is not one I share. You measure a sports person success by how they perform. Brock won 9 Bathursts "The great Race". No-one else, international drivers included, has done that. There are a few close, but he won 9 (10 if you count the 12 hour). At times, he may not have been the fastest, and at times he was certainly not in the most powerful car - yet he still won. He won one race by more than one lap. Other times, his car broke, so he jumped into the cross entered car that was lower down in the order, and he drove it to the front and won.

The guy was a genius behind the wheel, and not a bad businessman as well - we're all allowed a mistake or two, and the polariser certainly polarised people, but HSV is where it is today because of Brock, and FPV is where it is because of HSV. His only other really big mistake cost him his life.

Yes, in my opinion, it does make him the greatest touring car driver to date. My 4 year old twins know who Peter Brock is and how he died. I am a reasonably dedicated Ford fan, but I will still try to instill in them an appreciation for great drivers like Brock (and good ones like Skaife too, while I'm at it).

If you want to talk of disappointing drivers, need I mention Lowndes?

Agree with everything you said apart from Craig Lowndes as another has mentioned he has had some bad Luck & some of it at the Hands of Weasel Brothers Inc & not all of that was by Accident either.

Brock was a Truly Gifted Driver & Great Man with Vision

And Lowndsy give back as good as you get as you remind me of PB in the way you Drive & I just know you can overcome the Weasels lol

[Yaw]

Someone mentioned question of what had he done outside of Australia,
He did do some overseas tourers, but what clinches it for me was a Murray Walker statement after he had done a lap or 2 with Peter Brock one year.

Before I quote what Murray had to say, I want to explain why I think what he said does make Peter Brock one of the best drivers ever.
Consider Murray Walker has been around Formula 1 and many other types of international motor sports the most of his life. Now these people that he has studied are fantastic drivers and sportsmen in thier own right.
What Murray said about Peter Brock now.
"He is the most line perfect driver I have ever seen"
Now considering the above...that is a huge statement.

[The Yeti]

we can talk about all sorts of reasons as to why he wasnt or was, and we drag up people like Jim Richards and Moffat, but as an all round touring car driver of his time there was none better.

I'm a pretty staunch Ford supporter, but I remember as a young bloke standing on Hell Corner with my old man (also a one eyed ford supporter) it was raining rather heavily (as it tends to at bathurst) this particular year it was like Auckland it would poor for 10 mins then you got sunburnd the next hour before rain again every one including Dick was straight in the pits for wets brock works the Group C VK through the corner right arm on the window ledge calm as can be and takes Grice up the straight it was a beautiful thing to watch, the funny thing is until a moment ago I couldnt have told you who won that race.

I also remember meeting him once at a corporate thing Dad took me to at Amaroo Park and he was a genuine gentalman

[XR8putts]

Originally Posted by ehast13

1 - Jim Richards
2 - Peter Brock
=3 - Frank Gardner/Pete Geoghan
=4 Mark Skaife
=4 - Allan Moffat
5 - Dick JOhnson/Harry Firth/Tander
6 - Colin Bond/Bob Jane/Allan GRice
7 - Bob Morris (pre 81 accident)/Craig Lowndes (wil davison and jamie whincup? too soon to tell)
8 - Glenn Seton/Steve JOhnson/Bruce McPhee
9 - Todd Kelly/Doug Chivas
10 - Rick Kelly/John Goss

Off topic, Ambrose?!!

Even if you wern't a fan of MA, how one can rate Todd Kelly and Steven Johnson ahead of Ambrose is just plain :

[FTE217]

Rating past drivers is difficult ! having grown up through this era like some posters here brings back some bad memories being a Ford man thanks to PB.
I had a long post winded post about this and that and after re reading it thought what for ?
The record stands no matter what hard/bad luck stories, better support etcetc he did it !
Won the best motor race Bathurst more than anyone else (forget 12hr a farce I was there and similar) and good luck to him, the darth vadar I grew up watching and disliked because he drove for the darkside and wished he was on my Team.
Admired what he did for the sport, everyone has there ghost's in the closet who cares.

Overated ? nah ! I can picture that A9X flying around that awesum track at record pace at the end and it was like it was meant to be damn it.

**noticing someone's ranking why put in latter day drivers who are still in nappys ? thread is Brock and you'd expect to compare with his competitors not latter day alter boys.

[Wally]

Maybe not first, but apparantly second

circa 2005

Motor racing legend Peter Brock has been named the world's second best touring car driver of all-time.

The accolade comes in the latest issue of the venerable British magazine Motor Sport.

The nine-time Bathurst 1000 winner, who turns 60 on February 26, was beaten to the top spot by British driver Steve Soper.

Brock was one of three Australians included in the list of top 20 drivers - the others were 1960s touring car ace Frank Gardner and expatriate Brian Muir.

Brock raced primarily in Australia but Motor Sport editor Paul Fearnley said in his appraisal he should not be dismissed "as a big fish in a small pond".

"Remember that ranged against him were Jim Richards, Dck Johnson, Colin Bond, Allan Moffat, Larry Perkins and Mark Skaife - all of whom, it could be argued, deserved a place on the list," Fearnley said.

"Yes, his European visits were rare, but the distances and logistics involved, and strength of his brand (and the scene) at home, made such campaigns unnecessary.

"Had he offered his services in Europe he would have been snapped up - and been successful.

"Of that there can be no question," he wrote.

"In a country that measures itself in increments of sporting excellence, Brock is mentioned in the same breath as Bradman and Brabham.

"No other saloon car driver comes close in the household-name stakes."

Also included in the list was former Brock co-drivers Andy Rouse, Gerry Marshall and John Cleland.

Rouse competed at Bathurst twice alongside Brock, while Marshall teamed with him to finish second outright and first in their class in the 1977 Spa 24 Hour race.

Cleland, a two-time British touring car champion, competed at Bathurst with Brock in a Commodore in 1993 and has been a regular at Mount Panorama since.

The top 20 touring car drivers of all-time according to Motor Sport: 1. Steve Soper (GBR); 2. Peter Brock (AUS) 3. Andy Rouse (GBR); 4. Alain Menu (SUI); 5. Bernd Schneider (GER); 6. Frank Gardner (AUS); 7. Roberto Ravaglia (ITA); 8. Gerry Marshall (GBR); 9. Jim Clark (GBR); 10. John Cleland (GBR); 11. Gabriele Tarquini (ITA); 12. Klaus Ludwig (GER); 13. Laurent Aiello (FRA); 14. Dieter Quester (GER); 15. Hans Stuck Jnr (GER); 16. Joachim Winkelhock (GER); 17. Jack Sears (GBR); 18. Rickard Rydell (SWE); 19. Frank Biela (GER); =20. Brian Muir (AUS); =20. Nicola Larini (ITA).
.

[steamin63]

you could have put paul morris in the hdt cars of the 70's and 80's and he would of won races. brock was only the best when his car was the best. richo was probably the best complete driver i've ever seen. johnson, moffat,bond,lowndes, skaife and bartlett were as good if not better than brock .everyone will have an opinion on this but the only true answer is in the statistics. cheers.

[ehast13]

I was mad at Richo in 92 because FORD lost.

As for Murray walker. Do you remember his comments about Brad Jones in the Audi super tourer at bathurst

"Without a doubt, the best touring car driver I have seen on this continent. I cannot think of enough superlatives"

My top ten could do with a lot of adjusting (I did it in coffee break). Ambrose should be near the top. IN 2005 at Pukekohe he was a second faster a lap in changing conditions - even quicker than lowndes in the wet.

Speaking of Lowndes in the wet. Everyone seems to talk of how great he is in the wet but he wouldn't match Brock, would he? Or alan Jones. (Bathurst 1996 anyone).

When MOTOR magazine got a heap of drivers/team managers/journos together a few years back They listed Richo and Skaife above Brock.

I think Brock was the sentimental favourite and a world class driver but I really have trouble seeing how he was better than Richo. I've seen Brock match Richo but never really dominate him (in equal machinery of course). MAy I remind all that Richo was quicker overall in his stint in the damaged VC commo in 1980 than Brock.

1988 - BMW team mates - why was Brock so far behind at most races?

Brock never won a championship against any real opposition. That doesn't make him untalented but he was one of the best - Not the best ever in the world!

[Sourbastard]

All of the arguments for and against are pretty subjective at best.

To win races you need.
Funding. Without this, no matter how good you are you cant compete.
Team. Without a good engineer and a good pit crew, your car isnt going to make it.
Fitness. Without this, you aren't going to be able to last the race.
Skill. You need this to augment the first three.
Luck. It helps when your competition makes mistakes or get taken out by others mistakes.

Theres not a lot you can point to specifically and say, that driver is best, because a race isn't won by individuals, its won by teams.... unless its on foot.

[MR HO]

Whether you regard Brock as the greatest racing car driver would depend on who you ask IMO. Holden fans would say yes, Ford fans would most likley say moff or Richo. I had met Brocky several times & i can say he had so much time for his fans from babies, children and right up to the elderly. He had natural talent & ability behind the wheel of the race car & had always raced fair & i have heard other race car drivers say that if Brock couldn't win fair he wouldn't win a race. I know that he & Moff had the up most respect for each other, i saw Moff cry at Peter's state memorial, Both Holden & ford fans were brougt to tears.
During the 80's HDT produced some pretty awesome road cars, which are cherished & loved by many owners in the same way as the GT's are loved by their owners, so i think he had a pretty successful money making business as well, many would say that the Polariser & the release of the VL calais director blew it all for him, imo he could of handled it a lot better but i think that was the icing on the cake that Holden needed to shaft Brocky. he was getting too powerful with his road car business & Holden only had a slice of the pie while Brocky had a giant piece.
So whether Brocky was the greatest, that is a big title to have, but i do know one thing-he WAS one of the BEST!
Cheers Mr Ho.

[red_hotxr6]

Can you name any other driver whose accidental death would make front page news across the country, just like Steve Irwin he was an icon in his field and it was ironic that they both met their accidental ends only months apart.[/QUOTE]

Yes i can,.DICK JOHNSON.....no problems...

[Jock260]

Personally, i don't think a driver in the Australian Touring Car' or V8 Supercars will ever get close to PB. Lowndes is the next in line, but as mentioned before, his best has been wasted by Ford. I don't agree that he is the best in the world, as i have no idea about other countries drivers, but it wouldn't surprise me either if there was some truth to the matter.

[GRNKPR]

PB was good but MR VERSATILE Jim Richards


imagine if you couldnt cross enter ?????????????????????????????????????????????

[ebxr8240]

He couldn't beat Robbie Francevic in a Volvo...
http://wwwrsphysse.anu.edu.au/~amh11...GpA_racing.htm

[Blue Oval Mopar Man]

Originally Posted by Raptor

just like Steve Irwin he was an icon in his field and it was ironic that they both met their accidental ends only months apart.

It was infact, only 4 days apart . While I personaly witnessed the brilliance of Peter Brock at Bathhurst on that fatefull day in 1979 , where he won in the A9X by 6 laps , I was stunned that he run the fastest lap of the race on lap 163 and he did it while waving to the crowd thru skyline and steering with one hand , I have also witnessed the cunning and ruthlessness the great Brocky was capable of.

It was 1983 when he cross entered all the team drivers in both team cars. 05 died within the first hour of the great race so Peter and his co driver Larry Perkins took over the 25 car and won the race. Now John Harvey started the race and drove to the first pit stop where the car was commendered and the co driver of 25, Peters own brother Phil Brock never got to drive . After driving all week ,practising and qualifying Phil Brock never actually drove in the race and there for never got a mention as a winner at bathurst . The winners that year were Peter Brock,Larry Perkins and John Harvey.

Even though brocky had his faults I do class him as one of the best sedan racers in the history of the world as true blue ford man I have a soft spot in my heart for him .

[bathurst77]

PB was a great driver, and like all greats he assembled a great team around him. That gave him the best crews and machinery etc. However a lot of his results were at a time when there was no real opposition. The others all were in a mess.

To me PBs ability was shown at Bathurst 78 (or 79?) whe he set a new lap record on teh last lap of teh race, with one arm dangling out the window, totally relaxed. In 77 Moff got out of the car at lunch time to hand over to Ickx and almost collapsed , he was totaly drained physically and mentally.

PB had a natural talent, he didnt have to try. However so did Colin Bond, John Bowe, Jim Richards and Marcos Ambrose and a couple of others.

Allan Moffat didnt. He admitted it many times. He had to work hard at it. They used to say that in the days before restrictions on practice etc. Moff woud turn up on a Monday and bythe time everyone else would turn up for qualifying Moff would havea groove worn in the track. Thats why he was soo hard to approach on race weekend.. He wound himself up like a spring, and it kinda upset himthat Bond and Brock could breeze in fro qualifying and race day and get great results. Moff worked hard, and earned every point he got. To Brock (and Bond) it just flowed.

PB was ONE OF the best tin top drivers we have had. One of best in the world.
But he was no-where near THE BEST EVER.

[gtxb67]

he cannot be the best ever, because the best ever would not have made larry perkins sign a contract to always let brock be in front. it is one thing when the cars are running one-two, but in the last three or four on the grid. that is why perkins could not stand him, and protested his car at bathurst whenever he could
besides any one remember "the great race" from 94, 95, 95 & 97. crashed in everyone of them. two in the race and two in qualifying/practice. three wrecked cars
bathurst 77 is right - moff had to psyche himself up before every run and that is why is was so highly strung. that is why there were tears after the hardies heroes run in 1978, he gave everything he had and more. and in my view he was a lot less arrogant than the other guy, because he was always honest and true to himself and didn't pretend to the media and fans

[ehast13]

It is a shame that people seem to think that Holden shafted Brock. I remember it all very well. Anyone who was involved (Even Harvey or Gow - who picked up the peices) will tell you that Peter threw it away. HSV wasn't even an idea until Peter refused to allow ADR testing and wouldn't meet with Holden or even allow holden to supply an engineer (at no cost to HDT). The polarizer wasn't the big deal Brock made it out to be.

Brock was sending out press releases that were later revealed to be blatent lies and slander. Holden suddenly had no image maker in early 1987 - through no fault of their own.

Interesting Reading
The Rise and Fall of Peter Brock
John harvey interview in AMC
Most 'Wheels' Magazines from late 86 through to early 1988.

After seeing some arguments put forward on this thread, I will humbly concede that Brock is not always overrated. It is poorly researched journalists and mullet wearing holden bogans (with obligatory 'No fear' stickers on their vn wagons) that claim Brocky was the best in the world or best without doubt.

Had everyone had equal machinery and team we may be able to argue more but the fact remains,
Brocky rarely threw away an opportunity to win.
He gave the fans a hero or a villian
He loved racing
And Good on him for that!

[Mont5.0]

Good for the sport. but not number 1 in the world.

[ebxr8240]

Yea I think there has been some sensationalism in media etc...
He was VERY good, Peter perfect but didn't dominate like some of the bike and F1 riders and drivers..
As in ..
Michael Schumacher
A Prost

V Rossi
M Doohan
W Gardener

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

He couldn't beat Robbie Francevic in a Volvo...
http://wwwrsphysse.anu.edu.au/~amh11...GpA_racing.htm

That takes me back, still have a signed photo of "The Brick" from Robbie :

[steamin63]

yep robbie and jb could realy throw those swedish safety sponges around.