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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
View Poll Results: Has your zf heat exchanger failed? POST 2012 CARS ONLY | |||
No |
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85 | 92.39% |
Yes - cooling system serviced as per factory, using factory coolant |
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6 | 6.52% |
Yes - cooling system serviced as per factory using different coolant |
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0 | 0% |
Yes - cooling system not serviced |
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1 | 1.09% |
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll |
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#31 | ||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,503
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well, i have read all the threads on the subject, and i still don't believe the problem is that prevalent.
i believe those that are unlucky enough to have failures early on, are due to residual casting sand getting in to the exchanger and acting like sand paper. these would be covered under warranty anyway. failures later in life are more than likely the result of incorrect maintenance of the cooling system. i just had my gearbox serviced @ 160000km. no massive difference between before and after except the 'shunt' when selecting first gear whilst rolling to a stop is gone. i fitted a new exchanger at the same time. i'm aware that many people have bypassed the cooling system with no apparent negative side effects, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. oil temp warm up and stability will be better when cooled via coolant. why else would every manufacturer use this method. |
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#32 | ||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,503
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also, does anyone know if there have been any reported failures in the ecoboost cars (assuming they have the same setup) or are the failures pretty much confined to the 6cyl engine with the cast iron block?
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#33 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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^^ Posting stuff like that on an open Forum suggests it might be the Pot calling the kettle black
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#34 | |||
George
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Quote:
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BFWSM https://www.fordforums.com.au/vbport...articleid=1708 ![]() R/Up 2019 ![]() ![]() PWR Air/Oil Cooler, K&N, Egas elbow, V8 upper F6 lower CAI. 1997 Fairmont EL Ghia Tickford 4L Auto ![]() 1985 Falcon XF GL 4.1L Auto. 1979 Fairmont XD Ghia 4.1L Auto. 1971 Cortina GL Estate 1200cc Manual. Last edited by BFIIGhiaZF6; 29-03-2017 at 03:35 PM. |
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#35 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
I prefer my transmission operating at a stable temperature. @Prydey. V8 here and voted no.
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#36 | |||
George
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Quote:
The manufacturers run with heat exchangers to supposedly heat the trans more quickly to the minimum optimum temp of 30C and theoretically reduce emissions, but this is at the expense of a risk of a "Milkshake" and because it uses coolant at 95C+ it continues to heat the trans to unnecessarily high temps. Here's a comparison of the two, OEM and PWR heat exchanger/trans temp, engine coolant temp https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=608 maybe someone could provide a better graph of the heat exchanger/trans operating temps, its the only one I could find on the Forum. And here PWR air/oil cooler and ZF6 temp (blue), engine coolant temp (green), as you can see stable temps https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=692 The reality is that the ZF6 has a designed in strategy to get it to 30C quickly, it does not need a heat exchanger to do that for it, but it does need a cooler to cool it and maintain stable temps. The air/oil cooler runs the trans at stable and lower temps within the optimum operating temp range.
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BFWSM https://www.fordforums.com.au/vbport...articleid=1708 ![]() R/Up 2019 ![]() ![]() PWR Air/Oil Cooler, K&N, Egas elbow, V8 upper F6 lower CAI. 1997 Fairmont EL Ghia Tickford 4L Auto ![]() 1985 Falcon XF GL 4.1L Auto. 1979 Fairmont XD Ghia 4.1L Auto. 1971 Cortina GL Estate 1200cc Manual. Last edited by BFIIGhiaZF6; 29-03-2017 at 05:01 PM. |
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#37 | ||
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#38 | |||
George
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Quote:
and here, http://fordforums.com.au/showpost.ph...&postcount=219
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BFWSM https://www.fordforums.com.au/vbport...articleid=1708 ![]() R/Up 2019 ![]() ![]() PWR Air/Oil Cooler, K&N, Egas elbow, V8 upper F6 lower CAI. 1997 Fairmont EL Ghia Tickford 4L Auto ![]() 1985 Falcon XF GL 4.1L Auto. 1979 Fairmont XD Ghia 4.1L Auto. 1971 Cortina GL Estate 1200cc Manual. Last edited by BFIIGhiaZF6; 29-03-2017 at 05:21 PM. |
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#39 | ||
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Thanks George. From the correspondence you received from ZF (assumed accurately copied), I only read that the cooler temperature is beneficial for extending the service life of the oil, no mention of the transmission life being extended with the lower operating temperatures, that you may have stated in your query to ZF.
And I note that 30oC to 120oC is normal transmission operating temperature based on the warmup and high temperature strategies inherent in the transmission operation, and is perhaps not the optimal operating temperature range as you state. |
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#40 | |||
BA/F6 BF/F6 SSV/R TTG
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Perth
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Quote:
With the amount of ZF falcons and territory's on the road the % of failures is minuscule. Abviously it's nice to keep temps less than 100c , so if you have a high performance car or tow, an oil/air cooler in series with a factory heat exchanger is ideal Another factor is changing the coolant with the correct type at the recommended intervals. Follow this and the risk of a milkshake is the same is winning lotto, SFA.
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#41 | |||
George
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Quote:
You can put your own spin on it if you wish, but I have posted exactly what was stated in our discussion ![]()
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BFWSM https://www.fordforums.com.au/vbport...articleid=1708 ![]() R/Up 2019 ![]() ![]() PWR Air/Oil Cooler, K&N, Egas elbow, V8 upper F6 lower CAI. 1997 Fairmont EL Ghia Tickford 4L Auto ![]() 1985 Falcon XF GL 4.1L Auto. 1979 Fairmont XD Ghia 4.1L Auto. 1971 Cortina GL Estate 1200cc Manual. |
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#42 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Perth
Posts: 936
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Havent posted in a while but I had my 2012 G6ET transmission serviced yesterday at 90k. I bought the parts 6 x1L ZF fluid @ $180, genuine Ford upgraded cooler (stamped late 2016) @ $230 and a Ryco trans service kit @ $30. Labour @ $200 from Technical Transmissions in Perth. Great job by them there, they know their stuff.
Old fluid was still pretty golden but the trans shifts like brand new again and more quiet. I'm keeping the car for another 2 years at most so a full external set up isnt justified for me. |
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#43 | |||
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Quote:
Seems you're the one putting spin on it George. |
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#44 | |||
George
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Here it is again,
Quote:
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BFWSM https://www.fordforums.com.au/vbport...articleid=1708 ![]() R/Up 2019 ![]() ![]() PWR Air/Oil Cooler, K&N, Egas elbow, V8 upper F6 lower CAI. 1997 Fairmont EL Ghia Tickford 4L Auto ![]() 1985 Falcon XF GL 4.1L Auto. 1979 Fairmont XD Ghia 4.1L Auto. 1971 Cortina GL Estate 1200cc Manual. |
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#45 | ||
BA/F6 BF/F6 SSV/R TTG
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Perth
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Spin on it????
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#46 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 7,854
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Id just like to add that Ford Australia are not the only ones that fit internal radiator trans coolers, many vehicles have them. and they work fine.
My concern is rushing off to get one fitted because they heard about Milk shaking. this is of course their decision. But Please if you do make sure its fitted properly. I my experience aftermarket installs equate to most failures in older cars. this is a good article showing some bad install methods http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/231
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#47 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2009
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I thought there was a recall to adress this, at least for FG XR8's.
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#48 | ||
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Very different setup ... FG XR8 used trans coolers in the radiators .... like the BA's
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#49 | ||
BA/F6 BF/F6 SSV/R TTG
Join Date: Mar 2007
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V8s and radiator transmission coolers has nothing to do with this thread
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BA BF FPV starter button repairs. PM me. Nizpro equipped and Tuned by the BEST in the west Xtreme Ford Tuning 479RwKw Fuel limited, more pumps and power too come. F6#0507 & #0639 Pro racer and Tech expert NIZPRO modifying falcons like Premcar can only dream of , see VIDEO below. https://youtu.be/oa4IfguGQ-A |
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#50 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
It would be interesting to see the failure rate of those as well. I haven't heard of a single case of a Miami milkshaking.
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#51 | ||
George
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So if anyone has bothered to read it properly, they have gone very quiet, apart from inane comment about spin
![]() Where is the contra argument with supporting evidence? Once again I find myself very disappointed with the response to perfectly relevant and qualified information, nonetheless I am happy in the knowledge that my message is getting through and many a "Milkshake" has been prevented. Meanwhile there have been 3 "Milkshakes" recorded in the poll, 2 of which did the required servicing, so it is still happening, this logically suggests all the other "no" voters are at risk of a "Milkshake", small as it may be, and running their trans at unecesaryly high temps.
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BFWSM https://www.fordforums.com.au/vbport...articleid=1708 ![]() R/Up 2019 ![]() ![]() PWR Air/Oil Cooler, K&N, Egas elbow, V8 upper F6 lower CAI. 1997 Fairmont EL Ghia Tickford 4L Auto ![]() 1985 Falcon XF GL 4.1L Auto. 1979 Fairmont XD Ghia 4.1L Auto. 1971 Cortina GL Estate 1200cc Manual. |
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#52 | ||||
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Quote:
All I can really rely on as fact is what ZF stated in their email to you. Any other information in addition to that could be misconstrued by yourself. One important thing learned in my career was to treat any verbal information with skepticism, it must be written. Whatever was said by ZF in the conversation, ZF confirmed only what was written in their email. So, to separate the wood from the trees, here is the email you received from ZF. Quote:
And how can you rely on those poll figures George? I take those numbers with a grain of salt as well. |
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#53 | |||
George
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Quote:
My word is my bond, I did not misconstrue anything and wrote down the conversation only minutes after, if you choose to ignore that information so be it, but I stand solidly behind it, the email alone is a strong argument for the air/oil cooler and on that basis i recommend anyone wishing to avoid a "Milkshake" to install one. Until I received the call from ZF I too was sceptical re the possible negative side effects, but despite that had already removed the heat exchanger and installed the air/oil cooler, the call could have confirmed my fears, but it didn't and I was very circumspect when noting the details of that conversation I can assure you, it flew in the face (and still does) of the unsubstantiated misinformation being banded around this Forum, I have sustained continued critisim since first posting this information, positive and negative, but am happy in the knowledge that many a "Milkshake" has been prevented by sharing this information here. Not a lot of point to having a poll if you ignore the outcome, it tells us it is still happening. I am just an ordinary passionate Ford owner sharing info with fellow Forum members, no boat to push. Regards, George
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#54 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canberra
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preyday. Sorry, I voted but didn't read the conditions (my wife says this is only a man thing). Mine is a 2010 XT Falcon FG. However, I replaced the OEM exchanger with an air/oil cooler just before the warranty ran out, thus avoiding any possibility of a milkshake after that date. As a suggestion, would you consider changing the voting date to the date that the ZF was first introduced into the Falcon/Territory range (am not sure when that was).
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#55 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
the next I couldn't find where they mentioned having a milkshake in any of their posts -doesn't mean it didn't happen but .. The last I think was a V8 for the recall, but not actually determined as a Milkshake. ill also add no SZ Territory's have reported the problem
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#56 | |||
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Quote:
ZF started in higher spec models in FG at the start from 08 ZF was in all Falcon from 06/10 when the running change was made to Euro4 (cat converter design changed) from memory and the 5R55 was dropped from the line up altogether.
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#57 | ||
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What many dont seem to realise, the issue is not a ZF thing at all. The ZF transmission is irrelevant to the heat exchanger reliability. It just so happens the ZF transmission is fitted to the applicable Post 2012 Falcons.
The item in question is the heat exchanger type that is bolted to the side of the I6 engine near the starter motor, of which there apparently have been several versions over the years, even for the BTR/Ion transmission. Not to mention also the 5 speed auto that are in some FG's. This particular poll was to determine the reliability of the post 2012 heat exchangers. But some owners appear to be confused on the applicability of their vehicle to reliably answer the poll correctly. Others put their vote in regardless, maybe so to see the results. How can the results be relied upon to be accurate? And yes George, there is no point having a poll if the results are unreliable as this one is. |
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#58 | ||
Regular Member
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There seems to be developing a “them” and “us” situation on this Forum regarding ZF transmission cooling. It is so unnecessary. There are those of us (like me) that believe the cost of installing the air/oil cooler (at about $600) is cheap insurance and great peace of mind against a transmission milkshake that could cost $6000+, and inconvenience, to repair. However, no-one can guarantee that this option will not cause long term damage despite the fact that some vehicles have done in excess of 50,000km without problems. On the other side, some members are prepared to accept the risk of a milkshake and the possible high cost of the repair in the belief that it is better to operate the transmission at the manufacturer’s designed temperatures. Some of these go to great expense to change their coolants annually or replace the OEM cooler every two years to reduce that risk. Others simply opt for “who cares” perhaps hoping to replace their car before the risk materialises.
I am a believer in the air/oil cooler. As I have said on this forum before, I will probably keep my car for about 15 years/ 200000 km. Is anyone prepared to guarantee that my OEM unit will not fail from internal corrosion in that time? However I can guarantee that I will never have a milkshake. I have done over 40,000km in cold Canberra since installing the air/oil cooler and the car seems to be running exactly at it did before the changeover. I would not criticise anyone for whichever option they choose. “To each his own”. Can I suggest that both “for” and “against” members agree to disagree, respect each others’ views and then simply post their experiences as they occur for the benefit of the Forum generally. |
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#59 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Except we are being told it's safe to operate a transmission at 30°C on the say so of a person who works on a ZF help desk.
If that info came from one of the engineers who designed the box, then I might take notice. I'll ask again...Why do all manufacturers use heat exchangers? ZF help desk reckon you don't need one. Rolls Royce think you do. So do Ford. Look I'm totally behind eliminating the problem (if there is one) but lets get the facts straight and to me a chat with a "ZF tech" doesn't cut it.
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#60 | ||
BA/F6 BF/F6 SSV/R TTG
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30c, box would be slipping like mad trying to generate heat and warm up. The box will think the heat exchanger has malfunctioned, because its programmed for the expected heat input from the coolant during start up.
Now if the box was tuned for the new cooling system, may be different. So who that has fitted an oil/air cooler has had the tune re-calibrated. My guess is zero. You just cant change things and hope for the best. Car companies spend millions on development and calibrations. I am pretty sure they know better. And mercury bullet, there is a problem, its usually a lack of maintenance. But as we all know parts fail, even new ones. Its just bad luck if you get a dodgy one. The biggest problem is if the car is out of warranty the the bill will be large. Luckily if caught early enough a cross contamination (milkshake) doesn't always totally kill the box.
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BA BF FPV starter button repairs. PM me. Nizpro equipped and Tuned by the BEST in the west Xtreme Ford Tuning 479RwKw Fuel limited, more pumps and power too come. F6#0507 & #0639 Pro racer and Tech expert NIZPRO modifying falcons like Premcar can only dream of , see VIDEO below. https://youtu.be/oa4IfguGQ-A Last edited by arronm; 30-03-2017 at 08:37 PM. |
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