Wagons back from the dead: Sportwagon still outselling every SUV - Drive Comparo

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by vztrt

They did and got into the largest growing large vehicle market with the Terri.

Which has been falling in sales year on year .....

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Which has been falling in sales year on year .....

The Terri or the segment itself?

[sxckevo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Sounds like you work for Ford marketing.

And for the record, lots of people are buying sports wagons, Ford should start listening to the market

No I just mean if he buys a sportswagon there's always someone else the day after who will buy a ford, Mazda, Hyundai etc if the territories not ready it's not ready no point winging about fords not offering it yet.
I know lots of people are buying sports wagons but why does ford always have to follow? They canned it so why try and play catch up again, IMO it should be dead and buried

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'm curious,
Mondeo wagon is supposed to be the logical replacement for the Falcon Station wagon,
It's now pretty obvious that Mondeo couldn't sell itself out of a wet paper bag.....

I'm wondering if Ford now regrets putting its trust into a vehicle no one wants to buy...

How do you figure?? The second these Wagons land, they are off to customers!! One guy in the Mondeo topic, said he was told March was the waiting time to get one... You can only sell as many as you bring here!!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

How do you figure?? The second these Wagons land, they are off to customers!! One guy in the Mondeo topic, said he was told March was the waiting time to get one... You can only sell as many as you bring here!!

How do I figure??

Sales numbers, That's the problem.

Ford, a major international motor company can't get its bloody act together and is
losing customers because it is product constrained, this excuse is getting very old...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by sxckevo

I know lots of people are buying sports wagons but why does ford always have to follow? They canned it so why try and play catch up again, IMO it should be dead and buried

It should be but Ford failed to do one important step with the Territory RWD and it hurt them big time,
that was to supply it with the ZF 6-speed auto, that small change and improved economy
and driving pleasure would have made a heck of a difference to Territory sales.

Ford don't get it, it's not about diesel, it's about getting the entry level RWD model attractive to buyers,
that where your wagon buyers were but left because current RWD is little changed from six years ago..

For the waste of energy put into XT we could have almost had a Falcon sport wagon

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

How do you figure?? The second these Wagons land, they are off to customers!! One guy in the Mondeo topic, said he was told March was the waiting time to get one... You can only sell as many as you bring here!!

The waiting list isn't because they are selling the ***** off them, it is because Australia isn't being supplied enough product to satisfy the even lukewarm demand for them. The amount we are getting is a trickle, not a flood.

And jpd80 is right: Ford have, once again, screwed the pooch. They put all their wagon eggs in the Territory basket but then stupidly left it to wither on the vine whilst all its competitors passed it ages ago and now we are being told that the new Territory won't hit the streets until 2nd quarter next year. In the meantime, the traditional Falcon wagon has been starved to death and in some sort of cynical face saving exercise Ford now are trying to get people to be interested in a Mondeo wagon instead, but they can't get enough stock.

Originally Posted by sxckevo

I know lots of people are buying sports wagons but why does ford always have to follow? They canned it so why try and play catch up again, IMO it should be dead and buried

You've answered your own question there. Companies are offering sportwagons because people are buying them. Holden has proven - in the face of a declining large car segment - that people will still buy wagons. The Sportwagon is adding 1000 or so units to the Commodore's bottom line per month. Don't forget, the Falcon sedan and Commodore sedan are at near parity in terms of monthly sales, so that wagon is making 1000 more buyers walk into Holden dealerships per month than a competitor.

[sxckevo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It should be but Ford failed to do one important step with the Territory RWD and it hurt them big time,
that was to supply it with the ZF 6-speed auto, that small change and improved economy
and driving pleasure would have made a heck of a difference to Territory sales.

Ford don't get it, it's not about diesel, it's about getting the entry level RWD model attractive to buyers,
that where your wagon buyers were but left because current RWD is little changed from six years ago..

For the waste of energy put into XT we could have almost had a Falcon sport wagon

Some good points made there
From the wasted energy into the XT, maybe almost half a falcon sports wagon :P
But on a serious note I think we should all just wipe the wagon from our minds, it's almost certain to never come back so we should let it RIP

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by sxckevo

Some good points made there
From the wasted energy into the XT, maybe almost half a falcon sports wagon :P
But on a serious note I think we should all just wipe the wagon from our minds, it's almost certain to never come back so we should let it RIP

I don't mean to knock Ford and I don't wish to see the old leaf spring Falcon S/W back.
What interests me is the possibility of assembling Mondeo 5-door and S/W locally,
our ADRs make it difficult for us to get build priority out of Euro plants, so why not build them here.
No stamps and dies, import all parts and assemble / paint here eliminating the supply bottleneck.

Territory RWD IS our sport wagon but we must ensure it is kept efficient and attracting buyers.
Not long to go in the great scheme of things I know but still a nail biter...

[arronm]

I have a sportwagon as a company car and its great. In late 2008 I had a choice falcon wagon ( only XT and it was too poverty). Territory - first it didnt drive like a falcon sedan( felt more like a 4WD) and I wanted a RWD six speed and they told me I could only have a four speed. So I drove the sportwagon and a commodore sedan, they both felt the same. Five speed box was nice and with and without the rear seats down plenty of room in the back. I would have bought a FORD as in my family, I have a BA F6, my son has an BA XR6 and a EF wagon, my wife has a BF XR6 and a BA XT for her company car. BUT ford didnt have a car to suit me so I bought a holden. I would have paid ANY amount to have a FG XR6 turbo wagon.

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I did some maths & that article is either full of crap or Falcon Sedan has out sold Holden Sedan this year!!

http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...article&id=876

Prado has sold 11,650 YTD, so this means the Holden S/W has to at least have sold this to have out sold every SUV.. Take that off Commodores 30,582 & you get 18932 commodore sedan sold at the most!! Ford have sold 20,686 Falcons, take some off your Falcon Wagons & you have Falcon out in front (or very very close)!!!

What a stupid post, sorry but imaginative sales don't count. if ford did this that and the other they would have sold more, fact is they didn't and they aren't end of story!

Stoney!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

What a stupid post, sorry but imaginative sales don't count. if ford did this that and the other they would have sold more, fact is they didn't and they aren't end of story!

Stoney!

I take a slightly different view Stoney,

Before Sportwagon, Holden Sedan used to head Falcon sedans by a similar amount as the combined Sedan Sportwagon does currently. It's pretty obvious that quite a few sedan buyers have migrated to Sportwagon just as Falcon S/W buyers switched to RWD Territory years ago.

So while Holden still has a commanding lead they've done it by splitting the Commodore sedan sales but also having Captiva as an import puts their sales over the top. Ford relies on Territory to combat two vehicles Sportwagon and Captiva, to do that both versions have to be up to scratch and clearly, the 4-speed auto
RWD Territory has fallen behind. Diesel option and ZF 6-speed standard will help fill the gaps.

[sxckevo]

If they were to build the mondeo here, it would be in there interest first though to SOMEHOW get sufficient supply over here first though to see if it sold well otherwise that'd be another money losing exercise. But I do get what you are say it would make some sense

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Which has been falling in sales year on year .....

Failing?? What are you talking about??

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

What a stupid post, sorry but imaginative sales don't count. if ford did this that and the other they would have sold more, fact is they didn't and they aren't end of story!

Stoney!

No it is not!!! You clearly did no read it!!

I'm saying Falcon is now selling more Sedans than Commdore.. That is counting REAL sales!!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

No it is not!!! You clearly did no read it!!

I'm saying Falcon is now selling more Sedans than Commdore.. That is counting REAL sales!!

and this is what the sporthatch has done. commodore sedan buyers are now buying hatches. for all people rave on about the massive market ford is missing out on, commodore total sales are still very similar to pre sporthatch.

smoke and mirrors is their specialty and it works very well considering many of the posts on here.

some of you guys should send letters of job applications in to Ford because you are obviously much more clever than their product development people, even though they have much more info at their disposal.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by prydey

and this is what the sporthatch has done. commodore sedan buyers are now buying hatches. for all people rave on about the massive market ford is missing out on, commodore total sales are still very similar to pre sporthatch.

So you are saying that if the VZ wagon was not replaced with the Sportwagon and just discontinued that Commodore sales would have stayed the same because the wagon buyers would just buy the sedan?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by naddis01

So you are saying that if the VZ wagon was not replaced with the Sportwagon and just discontinued that Commodore sales would have stayed the same because the wagon buyers would just buy the sedan?

if holden discontinued the wagon, i'm sure sales would have dropped a bit, but with the continuation of a wagon variant, sales haven't really nudged upward either (apart from honeymoon period before novelty wore off). overall commodore sales haven't really changed a whole lot, so the split between sedan and wagon buyers probably has.

[BENT_8]

The fact is Holden developed a wagon version of its current popular model and has remained strong.
We wont know how many buyers would have turned to other manufacturers had the wagon ceased with the VZ model as Holden were proactive and covered their bases.
Lets face it, the last thing GMH needed during the GFC was added pressure in its only viable market place.

To Fords credit it took a punt on Territory and it appears to have paid off with a successful run, however, this is not the first time in history FOA has taken a punt, stuck with it only to backflip when things didnt go quite as planned (V8 anyone).

[SumoDog68]

With Sportwagon Holden moved into classy sporty euro type wagon which is used by young couples , cyclists and other outdoorsy types. Kind of like a local Subaru Liberty/Outback version.
Ford Falcon Wagon (as well as vt/vz commodore) was a rep mobile cargo hauler and not a lifestyle vehicle. Territory is a SUV and not a suitable replacement for low riding sporty handling lifestyle wagon.
FG could of been a nice base for a really nice sporty wagon but was deemed not viable by conservative management.
So if you are not one eyed badge supporter And desire localy built sporty lifestyle Sportwagon is the only choice. You can even have a V8 manual in these days of automatic only car lineups . Sales reflect this facts.

[bobthebilda]

As per the model performance data in the Technical resources shows

http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...article&id=876

There is absolutely no evidence that the introduction of the sportswagon has made any benefit for Holden.

Prior to sportswagon introduction, the commodore was selling 40116 units YTD (august). The year the wagon come out (2008), the figure was 33,000, 28772 in 2009 and is now running at 30582.

The Falcon/ Territory total in 2007 (YTD august) was 34600, 2008 = 30200, 2009 = 26500 and 2010 = 28700.

thus 2007 - commodore sales (YTD august) = 40116 2010 = 30582
falcon/ territory sales (YTD august) = 34600 2010 = 28700

So for all the hype the sportswagon is adding to commodore sales, it has only cannibalised its own market, thus giving it a much greater percentage fall than the Falcon/ Territory combination. Throw the captiva range into the combination, and all Holden has done over the last three years, is spend 10's of millions of dollars to develop the sportswagon, complicated its production line and diverted 10,000 buyers into an imported car.

[BENT_8]

There is no argument from me that sportswagon has taken market share from the sedan, Norm picked it when they first released details of it.

What im saying is that had Holden dis-continued the wagon or even continued with the basic reps version, they would have lost a percentage of their sedan/rep wagon sales to other SUV manufacturers for nothing more than the trend at the time.

Holden never expanded its locally produced market share with sportswagon, it secured it.

[SumoDog68]

It is interesting how people look at Ford as if they are CEO of the company. Simple fact is if you want low riding sporty wagon (maybe even v8 manual) Holden has a product for you. That is looking at it as a consumer.
FG XR6 Turbo Estate would be A nice option for some consumers. Who cares if cannibalizes Territory sales :-)

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

As per the model performance data in the Technical resources shows

http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...article&id=876

There is absolutely no evidence that the introduction of the sportswagon has made any benefit for Holden.

Prior to sportswagon introduction, the commodore was selling 40116 units YTD (august). The year the wagon come out (2008), the figure was 33,000, 28772 in 2009 and is now running at 30582.

The Falcon/ Territory total in 2007 (YTD august) was 34600, 2008 = 30200, 2009 = 26500 and 2010 = 28700.

thus 2007 - commodore sales (YTD august) = 40116 2010 = 30582
falcon/ territory sales (YTD august) = 34600 2010 = 28700

So for all the hype the sportswagon is adding to commodore sales, it has only cannibalised its own market, thus giving it a much greater percentage fall than the Falcon/ Territory combination. Throw the captiva range into the combination, and all Holden has done over the last three years, is spend 10's of millions of dollars to develop the sportswagon, complicated its production line and diverted 10,000 buyers into an imported car.

You can't really compare figures from the 07 large car market to todays as the market was in a period of decline from 02-08. You are also forgetting that prior to the Sportswagon there was the VZ wagon, which is included in the figures you have used. So if the Sportswagon cannibalised sedan sales, why didn't the total sales of Commodore drop due to the loss of the VZ wagon? The time when the Sportswagon was released the overall large car market started to stabilise (as shown in the stats you used, 08 - present) which can't be attributed to any one factor.

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

There is absolutely no evidence that the introduction of the sportswagon has made any benefit for Holden.

Prior to sportswagon introduction, the commodore was selling 40116 units YTD (august). The year the wagon come out (2008), the figure was 33,000, 28772 in 2009 and is now running at 30582.

Playing devils advocate, is it possible that while the Commodore S/W has not necessarily gained sales, it has helped Holden preserve sales, rather than eat into sedan sales?

Given that it was released just before and into the lead up to the GFC, could the S/W have helped Holden retain sales that were quickly heading to other segments?

So basically what i am asking is, if the S/W wasn't around today, would we have been looking at around 2000-2500 commodores (as per Falcon sales) or less sold all up as oppposed to what we saw occur and continue to see today?

I dont know, i think people underestimate the value that the S/W may have provided, not necessesarily for generating new sales, but potentially for holding sales during a difficult time in history.

[BENT_8]

Umm...im pretty sure i already alluded to that, but i doubt anyones listening, it makes sense

The figures given for Falcon above would include wagon i would guess, will be interesting to see how much the figures change next year when the wagon is a memory.
Will territory get these sales?

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Inducted_Breeze

Playing devils advocate, is it possible that while the Commodore S/W has not necessarily gained sales, it has helped Holden preserve sales, rather than eat into sedan sales?

Given that it was released just before and into the lead up to the GFC, could the S/W have helped Holden retain sales that were quickly heading to other segments?

So basically what i am asking is, if the S/W wasn't around today, would we have been looking at around 2000-2500 commodores (as per Falcon sales) or less sold all up as oppposed to what we saw occur and continue to see today?

I dont know, i think people underestimate the value that the S/W may have provided, not necessesarily for generating new sales, but potentially for holding sales during a difficult time in history.

I agree. I believe it did cannabalise the sedan sales, but it has also held sales to the nameplate that may have looked elsewhere. Since the VE shape is now 4 years old, it would also allow those that had a VE sedan and don't want the 'same' again, get a VE s/wagon.

A third way to look at it would be that the $150M spend on the VE s/w could've provided for new sheetmetal for VE2/VF anyway...

PS I'm currently looking at buying a second hand Territory, but if a FG sportwagon were to be released in 2012 then that would be my first new car. An XR6T one at that!

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

The fact is Holden developed a wagon version of its current popular model and has remained strong.
We wont know how many buyers would have turned to other manufacturers had the wagon ceased with the VZ model as Holden were proactive and covered their bases.
Lets face it, the last thing GMH needed during the GFC was added pressure in its only viable market place.

To Fords credit it took a punt on Territory and it appears to have paid off with a successful run, however, this is not the first time in history FOA has taken a punt, stuck with it only to backflip when things didnt go quite as planned (V8 anyone).

Ford chronically invested in the Territory. The on-again, off-again, on-again diesel situation should never have happened. The Territory should've also went to the ZF 6spd when the SY came around instead of only the AWD.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

As per the model performance data in the Technical resources shows

http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...article&id=876

There is absolutely no evidence that the introduction of the sportswagon has made any benefit for Holden.

Prior to sportswagon introduction, the commodore was selling 40116 units YTD (august). The year the wagon come out (2008), the figure was 33,000, 28772 in 2009 and is now running at 30582.

The Falcon/ Territory total in 2007 (YTD august) was 34600, 2008 = 30200, 2009 = 26500 and 2010 = 28700.

thus 2007 - commodore sales (YTD august) = 40116 2010 = 30582
falcon/ territory sales (YTD august) = 34600 2010 = 28700

So for all the hype the sportswagon is adding to commodore sales, it has only cannibalised its own market, thus giving it a much greater percentage fall than the Falcon/ Territory combination. Throw the captiva range into the combination, and all Holden has done over the last three years, is spend 10's of millions of dollars to develop the sportswagon, complicated its production line and diverted 10,000 buyers into an imported car.

EXACTLY what ive been thinking while reading all these missguided posts and thoughts. Theyve developed a car that has eaten out off its own sedan sales but the catch is they spent millions developing it. And to top that they import one of the biggest overated suvs in aus. The captiva....but ford have the mondeo range/wagon for that. Much better build..rep..style ..and street cred. Ford also have maintained profit and holden are still struggling to pay there gov bills and depts......nice one people....The only thing i will give yous is that the terri has taken to long to update to a satisfactory level for the punters....still sells tho...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by phillyc

Ford chronically invested in the Territory. The on-again, off-again, on-again diesel situation should never have happened. The Territory should've also went to the ZF 6spd when the SY came around instead of only the AWD.

Back when Territory was selling quite well, the RWD version was roughly 60% of sales.
Rather strange that Ford saw fit to equip the XT with ZF and ignored the pleas for ZF in RWD Territory,
I'm sure that a lot of dealers would be quietly peeved that Ford sat on its hands for so long,
a reasonably well equipped $36,990 drive away RWD Territory with ZF is an easy sell to buyers...