I blame the parents...

[MO]

Originally Posted by Mr Brooksy

Completely disagree with forced military service!

The reasons for forcing offenders into the military (especially some of the ones mentioned here) is trying to treat the symptoms, not the cause! Sure it could be used as an option to jail time, but if we continue to punish JUST the kids for their behaviour, all we will achieve is more kids in youth detention, jails or community services. More MUST be done to treat the cause!

So what would you do to treat the cause? And just for the record my idea of natio's is all kids not just offenders,once your 18 in you go for one /two yrs.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by MO

So what would you do to treat the cause? And just for the record my idea of natio's is all kids not just offenders,once your 18 in you go for one /two yrs.

I reckon, offenders into the armed forces and non offenders into the CFA/SES etc.

[onfire]

Originally Posted by MO

So what would you do to treat the cause? And just for the record my idea of natio's is all kids not just offenders,once your 18 in you go for one /two yrs.

Tell me this, you personally as an 18 year old kid would want to spend 2 years in boot camp.. just because? Despite never doing anything wrong, being a well rounded good kid, and with goals of pursuing other options, because 5% of your generation don't understand good from bad?

So we punish an entire generation because of the actions of a few people?

Yeap, thats logical.

[MO]

@onfire natio's has been around in many countries for many years and works,just one that I can recall instantly is Israel. The United States used to not sure if they still do.

And its not two years of boot camp that part is only 3mths the rest is whatever job your given/suited for. Remember I said non combat roles.

[MO]

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

I reckon, offenders into the armed forces and non offenders into the CFA/SES etc.

Now thats one I hadn't thought of you could possibly extend to things like the Volunteer coast guard/rescue etc.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by onfire

So we punish an entire generation because of the actions of a few people?

Yeap, thats logical.

You do it to P platers so why not this? Where do you stop?

[fordOwner]

Pffff - family members hurling abuse at the bench... so their boys scare the crap out of a suberb with guns, violence and destruction all because their boys have gotten them selvs addicted to drugs.. And when faced with their consequences the family respond by abusing the bench... NO RESPECT.
And the Govt should follow China's punishment in my eyes - Hard labour, not showing them how to kill and teach them how to operate guns properly with counter attack techniques through the armed forces or whipper snipping bollards at the local park through community service. (the community service guys come to my work once a week and they do stuff all, sit around tagging our facilities, ordering drugs over the phone before picking spent flowers off the memorial plaques). Get them laying railways or roads or something.
But the 9 years sentence and 3 and a half years these guys got is awesome!

[bd737]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

I agree. I love this country, but the last thing I would do, is commit my child to war for the interests of this country so his life can be traded for that of another, or for what ever cause the government deems worth dying for. This is not the middle east. We don't groom our children for war and to die for any cause or at the hands of any dictor. It should be his choice whether he enters the armed forces to fight for his country. Not the decision of the political party of the day.

Agree entirely.

Something like 12 months with the SES, were they can actually help people and make a real difference, would be better.

[MO]

Originally Posted by bd737

Agree entirely.

Something like 12 months with the SES, were they can actually help people and make a real difference, would be better.

There is one problem I just thought of with the SES/CFA etc they're volunteer=no pay.
At least with the natio's they would be getting paid along with the other benefits that they get e.g.medical,accomodation etc and yes a percentage of pay is deducted for their board and lodgings,no different to renting and having a job. If they could/would get one.

[GK]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

From: [url]
Unbelievable. Rather than feel shame and remorse at their child's abhorrent behaviour, the family hurled abuse at the bench?

The way of the world it seems. No respect shown by the kids, as none is shown by the parents.

Originally Posted by pitpal

WE need more judges like that in victoria...

Agreed, but I'd add we need more judges like that everywhere!

GK

[GK]

Originally Posted by onfire

Tell me this, you personally as an 18 year old kid would want to spend 2 years in boot camp.. just because? Despite never doing anything wrong, being a well rounded good kid, and with goals of pursuing other options, because 5% of your generation don't understand good from bad?

So we punish an entire generation because of the actions of a few people?

Yeap, thats logical.

I see the point you're making but perhaps because our teenagers have soooo many chioices and "rights" that they'd benefit from understanding that some things are such that they have no control over whatever. A stint of service may just be the tonic.

I also disagree that such service would be punishment. It just might be the thing that helps thousands make a direct, stable and guided transition into responsible and patriotic adulthood. It's actually an opportunity to pay back the nation for all the years of education, healthcare etc, etc. It gives them an opportunity to give rather than take, to work hard rather than expect.

Works for me.

GK

[ILLaViTaR]

Woah a Judge that actually uses his head and sends out rational sentences.

Not entirely rational though, there's a lot of age discrimination in there but it's the best sentence I've seen to date.

[Streets]

You "national service" guys know that the army grunts get smashed-as and punch on every second night, right?

[MO]

Originally Posted by Streets

You "national service" guys know that the army grunts get smashed-as and punch on every second night, right?

Really,shows how much you don't know!!

[Saraco]

Originally Posted by MO

Natio's good idea. BUT first you have to get rid of the bleeding heart do-gooders.
Bring back corporal punishment in schools,fine parents who don't control and discipline their kids properly.
Give the coppers back what they had many years ago the discretion to boot a kids bum with #10 instead of having them hogtied the way they are now.
End rant.

Yep, I REMEMBER getting the cane in school! Then getting the cane from the old man,for getting the cane in school!

[Saraco]

Originally Posted by Mr Brooksy

Completely disagree with forced military service!

The reasons for forcing offenders into the military (especially some of the ones mentioned here) is trying to treat the symptoms, not the cause! Sure it could be used as an option to jail time, but if we continue to punish JUST the kids for their behaviour, all we will achieve is more kids in youth detention, jails or community services. More MUST be done to treat the cause!

Don't think so! Nothing and I mean NOTHING! Would bring these little twerps to their knees, like a big blustery screaming boot camp commander!

[SVD]

Originally Posted by MO

Natio's good idea. BUT first you have to get rid of the bleeding heart do-gooders.
Bring back corporal punishment in schools,fine parents who don't control and discipline their kids properly.
Give the coppers back what they had many years ago the discretion to boot a kids bum with #10 instead of having them hogtied the way they are now.
End rant.

+11ty Billion!!!!

my parents treated me hard when i did wrong but i came good, im in uni studying medicine got good grades dont drink smoke and rarely go out because thats just asking for trouble and im happy as!

i hate all those children activists saying that punishment stuffs kids up... its BS!!! when you dont punish kids is when they become like the aforementioned.

I still want to see children punishments abolished for harder crimes such as rape murder attempted murder etc... send em straight to the big house, if they are mature enough to commit heinous enough crimes then they are mature enough to get the real punishment :

[BHDOGS]

Id be quite happy for them to bring in nation military service for all 18 year olds as long as the government back dates it so every abled person under 50 also has to go back and do his service and duty for the same amount of time only seems fair seeing as they had idiot kids back in your generations aswell not to mention that theres plenty of adults that need a kick in the **** to or doesn't it seem so attractive an option now?

[Saraco]

:

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

Id be quite happy for them to bring in nation military service for all 18 year olds as long as the government back dates it so every abled person under 50 also has to go back and do his service and duty for the same amount of time only seems fair seeing as they had idiot kids back in your generations aswell not to mention that theres plenty of adults that need a kick in the **** to or doesn't it seem so attractive an option now?

Yeah!We had something like the miltary back then sonny! Done it for 12 years, it was called school. Oh! I also think a few of us have already done our time in the armed forces too!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by svov88

:
Yeah!We had something like the miltary back then sonny! Done it for 12 years, it was called school. Oh! I also think a few of us have already done our time in the armed forces too!

I've done 13 years of school, I beat you

[Saraco]

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

I've done 13 years of school, I beat you

But in what era?! The schools of the last 25 years are akin to holiday camps!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by svov88

But in what era?! The schools of the last 25 years are akin to holiday camps!

1996-2009. I'm a product of 30% passrates. Aren't you guys screwed when it comes to your retirement village/aged care facilities are run by generation Y? Scary thought.

[MO]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

Id be quite happy for them to bring in nation military service for all 18 year olds as long as the government back dates it so every abled person under 50 also has to go back and do his service and duty for the same amount of time only seems fair seeing as they had idiot kids back in your generations aswell not to mention that theres plenty of adults that need a kick in the **** to or doesn't it seem so attractive an option now?

If your out to stir forget it,ppl in this thread are trying to have a sensible discussion.
If on the other hand you are for real then you have one hell of a lot of learning to do along with your reality check. I would gladly go back in and do my six years again. The period I did my time was 1966 to 1972 give you a hint there was a war going on.
So either be constructive or don't post!

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by onfire

we just need stronger and better policing. And I'm not just talking about from law enforcement, I'm talking about in schools and the local community.

A problem child does something wrong, 9 times out of 10, its barely addressed. Teach them, that theres a line and make sure they know when they cross it.

Policing is as strong and as good as it can be with the limited resources they have, but it is the judicial system that negates the effort by inapropriate sentencing and punishment / rehab...but then again...they can only do what THEY are allowed to do...vicious circle.

Police have enough powers to do their job, but they need reinforcement from juduciary, community and individuals.

[MO]

Don't disagree but the policing I am partly on about is the old school sort where the cop could kick a kids bum,give them a cuff under the ear etc and not get into deep poo.
e.g. back in the mid/late 70's I was living in Queanbeyan NSW,one of the local coppers had a pretty good reign on the kids. He kept them in line for the most part and their parents knew it. Most of the stuff the kids did was minor but because he used his #10 etc they knew where they stood.

Unfortunately a new family in town, young bloke had a run in with this copper well long story short the kid cried to his mummy,she cried foul to his bosses and that copper ended up out in the middle of nowhere in a one horse town.
Needless to say things went downhill from there. He was a bloody good copper always fair and straight up.

[pottery beige]

Sorry MO you just gave your age away you old bugger... hehe..
Where do we sit with doing a national service with these little creep's.. alot of them have a history from a very young age of criminal and drug abuse.. doe's that get them out of it or maybe just a less informal boot style camp to SLAP THEM INTO SHAPE!!!!

[MO]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

Sorry MO you just gave your age away you old bugger... hehe..
Where do we sit with doing a national service with these little creep's.. alot of them have a history from a very young age of criminal and drug abuse.. doe's that get them out of it or maybe just a less informal boot style camp to SLAP THEM INTO SHAPE!!!!

Yes that is a bit of a problem,how would we deal with them. Maybe given the young age of some it could start with say working on farms and cattle/sheep stations. They would still have to do school work etc. Then when their of age move them into the natio stream.
Of course there will be those that don't want their lil billy or sally taken away but it would have to be done.

You know there is one very good thing about being an old fart,I've got life experience i.e. been there done that.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by MO

Yes that is a bit of a problem,how would we deal with them. Maybe given the young age of some it could start with say working on farms and cattle/sheep stations. They would still have to do school work etc. Then when their of age move them into the natio stream.
Of course there will be those that don't want their lil billy or sally taken away but it would have to be done.

You know there is one very good thing about being an old fart,I've got life experience i.e. been there done that.

That is the big thing, removing them from their situation.. They get in with the wrong crowd, get off their head's on drug's and next thing commiting crime to support these drug habit's...
They get caught up in the vicious cycle of drug's and crime..
Me haven't heard of many drug dealer's/drug bust's out on cattle or sheep station's.. sound's like a good place to start sending some of these lost people..

[Mr Brooksy]

Originally Posted by MO

So what would you do to treat the cause? And just for the record my idea of natio's is all kids not just offenders,once your 18 in you go for one /two yrs.

I'm no expert on family court matters or even the legal system, but I'd suggest that parents are in some way held responsible to the actions of their kids. Obviously it would have to be proven that there was major negligence from the parents etc. But if thy were found to be guilty of being doosh bags, that they too had to serve some kind of sentance eg, 100 days community service, fines, short jail time, or even mandetory parenting councilling etc.

I'm not opposed to national service per se but I'm not sure that forcing someone into it will be as effective. Eg, those who don't give a damn about their actions, sure remove the options and send them to jail, and for those who show remorse etc give the option of national service too.

Oh and I read a post saying that we should do things similarly to China re discipline etc. Are you serious!!! One of the main reasons for their national service is so that the general population does not question the government and does what their told or their shot.
Please excuse me if I miss read your comment though. As Im away from my Internet at home and am trying to be part of this conversation via my crappy iPhone!

Oh and also my comments are trying to be as balanced as I can, part of me would like to bring back the cane etc, but on the other hand I know that we live in a very different world now.

[MO]

@Mr Brooksy,the cane can be brought back it just needs the silent majority to become vocal. And this applies to all things.