Countdown to new goodies - Page 14

Walkinshaw · 19-03-2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

Then you should also know that a steel intake pipe becomes a major heat sink heating up intake air tenfold over plastic or rubber in a hot engine bay.And that inlet air temp measurement is most critical at the point closest to where it enters the engine not much earlier in the inlet tract.

Glenn

Exactly where i measure IAT(manafold plenum). I also datalog my IAT temprature against an ambiant temp sensor. I run the same inlet pipe as stockstandard. I get 99kpa up to 4800rpm with a drop to 95kpa at arround 5850rpm, so only a restriction really above 5000rpm.

With regards to temperature, on a 33deg day, IAT values were never above 38deg.

stockstandard · 19-03-2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

Then you should also know that a steel intake pipe becomes a major heat sink heating up intake air tenfold over plastic or rubber in a hot engine bay.And that inlet air temp measurement is most critical at the point closest to where it enters the engine not much earlier in the inlet tract.

Glenn

Yes i do know this

that air temp sensor is not being used for any tuning purposes so I can put it where i like.

And i quickly learnt that the steel pipe heats up quickly which is why I have gone to great lengths to shield it from the main sources of heat in the engine bay. Still not ideal, but other things have to come first.

**Whoosha** · 19-03-2006, 02:54 PM

Gee this is fun been at work for 2 days + got all this reading to catch up on

: only had 1 + 1/2 pages of queeries when I had my air box fiitted simular gains

: don"t no how or why, or care how it works it just does or I wouldn"t have been handing over the cash that was my only concern getting ript off again + wasten hard earnt for $hit.. these guys will back there stuff 100% all I can say is listen to this thing suck on my past ya :Reverend: :Reverend: LOL Whoosha............

1TUFFUTE · 19-03-2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonbays

Sorry guys I am 100% with stockstandard on this. I too have tried and all this airbox and fliter mod stuff is just really marginal gain. I saw the dyno sheet and I have to say if there is a linear gain right through the range with a mod like this i don't believe it and you couldn't explain it without bull#$^&*NG. look at the dyno info again and print off the same two grahs with rwkw and AF ratio not torque and lets look at that.

yep ill sit on the fence untill that explained ИИИ it is hard to beleive..am open and willing to learn tho!!!

5speedeb · 19-03-2006, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev5 ute

yep ill sit on the fence untill that explained ИИИ it is hard to beleive..am open and willing to learn tho!!!

sitting on the fence thats not like you

:

1TUFFUTE · 19-03-2006, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

Then you should also know that a steel intake pipe becomes a major heat sink heating up intake air tenfold over plastic or rubber in a hot engine bay.And that inlet air temp measurement is most critical at the point closest to where it enters the engine not much earlier in the inlet tract.

Glenn

dont know if im onto something here, but ive just been for a spirited drive an i have the same metal pipe in the picture and it is def no hoter than the other plastic parts of my intake.(not even that hot,can eassily keep hand on)Maybe has something to do with the extra 100mm pipe i have into the air box,i dont know...but i would have thought the time the air spends in the metal pipe compared to the time it spends iin the bigger airbox(heating up waiting to be sucked in) ud think theyd be pretty even. Correct me if im wrong

**Stav** · 19-03-2006, 03:39 PM

You are wrong. I have never used metal intake pipng for the exact reason G&D have stated. The metal pipe holds more heat in the intake stream than plastic. Maybe insulated metal tubing may work though.?

Bucknaked · 19-03-2006, 03:49 PM

I got an email back from a place who should remain nameless

: and they are currently reworking their intakes to fit bitter. Composite material. So it should not hold any heat. Would this be right. Composite does not attract and hold heat?

1TUFFUTE · 19-03-2006, 03:53 PM

id say that makes sense...ud probably be better of with a same size enlarged pipe but just get it done in plastic. What about all those pretty stainless ones i keep seeing that run all the way???

xd5.8l · 19-03-2006, 04:02 PM

These mods your getting CASPER better be good, I haven't seen so much crap posted in all my life! Don't forget the wheelie bar and parachut. I'll also remember to wear alot of clothing so I don't suffer wind burn

:. You better hope it doesn't compromise your reliability because any engine over 140,000 km is in melt down mode.

AUIIIXR8 · 19-03-2006, 04:07 PM

I would vote this post in the top 10 for most useless crap. It's like a movie that gets built up to much before it's released. Expectations naturally rise to unreasonable levels.

stockstandard · 19-03-2006, 04:07 PM

The metal pipes do get hot, and are not ideal. It is easier to work with metal though, which is why its used when people (including myself) was a bigger pipe.

If you wrapped it in heat tape, or HPC coated it, no problem.

From what dan posted though, the intake temp do not seem to rise significantly though, probably due to the speed in which the air is travelling means it doesnt heat up as much. Non-metalic is still beter though.

cArSiK · 19-03-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by useless

You are wrong. I have never used metal intake pipng for the exact reason G&D have stated. The metal pipe holds more heat in the intake stream than plastic. Maybe insulated metal tubing may work though.?

Spot on stav ,its the exact resason I used PVC instead of exhaust pipe in my intake.

I have no reason to doubt that Casper got the gains he did. Good work Casper / G&D.

James

RspecAU · 19-03-2006, 04:30 PM

I think some of u guys r missing the point on the heat build in the air box. Why then is it called a COLD AIR INTAKE?

Casper · 19-03-2006, 04:33 PM

ok, just to add some interest.. the intake pipe on mine WAS steel.. and is not back to the original plastic. Bit more food for thought I guess.

stockstandard · 19-03-2006, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RspecAU

I think some of u guys r missing the point on the heat build in the air box. Why then is it called a COLD AIR INTAKE?

As I have already mentioned, the air temps inside the airbox are the same as ambient (or bloody close to it). Simply put, the airbox doesnt heat up the intake, which you would expect being a plastic box on the cool side of the engine being fed with air from outside the engine bay.

Would g&d be albe to share the temperature difference they measured? Not being a smart ИИИИ, but they did put great emphisis on the insulation of the airbox in previous posts.

dansedgli · 19-03-2006, 04:53 PM

Cant wait to see what else you get done Casper. Hopefully this round of Mods give you the results you're after.

Its great to see G&D put some effort into the AU 6. There's nothing like a using an engine setup where everything has been done before a whole lot by a few companies. Its much easier to spend cash on the car when you can go out there and buy the off the shelf products that you know will give you the best gains instead of wasting cash using trial and error.

Aaron_EF8 · 19-03-2006, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laminge

Aaron Ef, thanks for the great laugh, needed that this morning.

:

Not sure what that's supposed to mean, your comment does not help this thread at all, but anyway.

I was keen on buying one of these airboxes, until I found out a couple of things, like they aren't available for EF-EL Falcons (and never will be I'd say) and they cost around 3 times what I was willing to pay for one.

Back on topic (I think, this thread never had a topic did it?), it's my understanding that Caspers car gained 10rwkw from unbolting the 'modified' airbox from the intake piping, and attaching the G&D box? So all the discussion on different intake pipes doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the dyno graph seems very suspect.

Matt_J · 19-03-2006, 05:14 PM

What was the question again?? sheesh!

The world of induction and exhaust will never cease to amaze, just when you think you get it right and come up with the perfect intake in rolls another car...

All engines react differant to induction sizeing and plumbing, we see engines with 75mm throttle bodys pick up 12 kw by adding a 4" Intake, then we have seen engines with 90mm throttle bodys pick up power by using an 80mm intake! We have seen cars with exhaust and tune mods pick up massive gains in intake mods, we have seen standard cars pick nothing only to find out the exhaust is crushed... there is no hard and fast rule, our testing is done on our dyno before and after, with each differant mod reciveing 3-4 dyno runs to back up the gain or loss, to compare what works on your car and doesnt work on mine offers a field of landmines as the engine, its intake and exhaust tracts are all part of a big air pump, it as a whole needs to be treated as such.

In almost every test i have seen (and we done Plenty!!) you will loose power by running straight into the throttle body with no plumbing, or, to be more accurate, you will pick up power with the correct sized and shaped intake as opposed to straight into the throttle body, anybody that thinks other wise is delusional and has not done there testing.

The simple facts remain:

The G&D intake will outflow the standard air box
The G&D air box out flows the airbox that WAS fitted on Caspers car
The G&D air box on countless occasions has proven its worth on the dyno and track
G&D are the originators, not the imitators.

Casper · 19-03-2006, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stockstandard

Ok, your missing the point completely.Anything posted on a forum is subject to discussion, and for the first time this otherwise pointless thread has some technical debate (although still very one sided) and you want to crush it.

I have raised concerns (which I dont think is a bad thing at all), and backed up everything I have said with the source of that info so everyone knows where i am coming from and has the opportunity to correct me if im wrong (and there is a good chance I am wrong), but all you guys seem to be doing is labeling me and others knockers. Do you want a forum where the only way members know how to modify cars is to write checks? Why not actually address those points im raising - Im not trying to label this product useless, just trying to understand how it is supposed to work.

Just because people like myself dont have a business name doesnt make what we say wrong, or not worthy of a response and I find your attitude towards amateur builders very poor. Yes I am an amateur, but that doesnt mean that everything I do is not to a professional standard. My work certainly stands up well against the 'professionals' you were flying the flag for for so long!

And why cant I discuss a product that has no relevance to me? Am I not allowed to post in V8 tech because I drive an I6? As much as you would like to separate yourselves from e-series, the fact remains that your engines are very similar to ours (especially seeing as how many of us have a number of AU parts in our cars), and if it apparently works so well for you guys then naturally we will be interested to see if it works on ours. Many of us e-series guys know people with AU's, so you would think if you treated us as potential customers we would spread the word for you. Guess not. It may be irrelevant to you in your grand scheme, but when you post about a 10rwkw restriction in a factory setup people are going to take notice.

Re-read my posts - I have raised valid some points and given enough detail so that anyone has the opportunity to point out where my thinking is wrong.

Well, as you can see I havent "crushed" or editied anything out of this thread at all so please dont accuse me of that. The facts I stated are still totally relavent, just as relavent as yours. Lets restate them (except the last one as it is clearly an obvious one).

a) My car - last time I looked
b) My moneyCOLOR=Red]- last time I looked[/COLOR]
c) My chiocesCOLOR=Red]- last time I looked[/COLOR]
d) The airbox setup is part of a much bigger picture - Absolutely. It is the first of a number of mods this visit to G&D and this is the first visit of around 3 this year.. so its a tiny part of a very big picture. Therefore its interest value to me is somewhat different to its interest value to you.
e) It has has proven benifits on other cars - I can name at least 3 other AU's and a number of BA's and LS1's all running very similar setups. I cant name any that have returned them. Even Bluepower, who have their own setup, conceeded this type of setup has advantages over standard intakes. So much so they then designed their own. So 2 major performance places (who both are at the leading edge of 1/4 mile times for newer Fords) along with a large group of statisfied customers give me a hint it works.
How? Dont know. Why? Dont care. Am I happy to hand over my hard earned for it? Very much so. Are others? Appears so.
I dont pretend to know as much about cars as you but you accuse me of trying to "crush" your opinions while you simply try to ride roughshod over mine.. and god help me if I try to pull you up on that, I'd be accused of ELITISM and E Series hating (irrelavent I have owned a V8 EB and still own an EF Futura which is one of the best cars I've ever had).
It seems since day one you and I have butted heads over all sorts of mods... usually the ones done to my car as I never really have taken as much intereast in your car as you have in mine.
You say

Quote:

Originally Posted by stockstandard

My work certainly stands up well against the 'professionals' you were flying the flag for for so long!

yet a few posts later you say

Quote:

Originally Posted by stockstandard

Yeah im running an MS2, but unfortunately no track or dyno yet - Ive been overseas for a while and otherwise occupied with work commitments (slack i know

: )

Now I've never really followed the progress of your mods as I have mentioned and I make no excused for that, there are hundreds of people on this sight I havent really dealt with to that level so I honestly dont even know what sort of E Series you have. I am curious now though how you are comparing our cars or indeed your car to anyones. Without a Dyno or ET it is difficult to really guage a serious comparison I would assume. Or have I missed the point and you are only talking about since you fitted the MS2? I'm not stirring here, I'm just trying to work out the comparison. You have seemed to be fixated on my car and the mods I get for some reason that I dont understand to be honest. Do you have an interest in the VCT engine or is it something else?

I have stated over and over, the mods on my car were, at the time and still to this day, very effetive. My personal issues have never changed that fact that I still hold the products themselves in high regard.

I suggest you go start a thread on this somewhere so the debate can go on unsullied by my lack of technical knowledge and I can continue on with this thread as it was. Useless or otherwise, it was at least entertaining (as it was ment to be) and worth a few laughs. Feel free to use/quote my post detailing the airbox teating in the thread to kick it off if you wish and yes, I'll probably watch it with intersest as I actually do understand your reasoning and think you have a valid point.. just not in this thread.

Aaron_EF8 · 19-03-2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

What was the question again?? sheesh!

How much power did Caspers car make when the airbox was dis-connected?

Casper · 19-03-2006, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

it's my understanding that Caspers car gained 10rwkw from unbolting the 'modified' airbox from the intake piping, and attaching the G&D box? So all the discussion on different intake pipes doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the dyno graph seems very suspect.

Incorrect. The piping from the airbox to the first elbow was most certainly changed as well. It was an "oversized" metal unit attached to a modified EF Lid. It was replaced with the tapered plastic unit from a stock AU I6. So EVERYTHING from the first elbow down was actually changed in this.

Laminge · 19-03-2006, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

Not sure what that's supposed to mean, your comment does not help this thread at all, but anyway.
.

It added the sameone as your reply to Russell, complete and utter garbage, the guy has a better understanding through knowledge and research than you could aspire too

But then again, another useless post by myself to qualify another useless post! :togo:

and while we are at, any further discussion, appart from the mod to this VCT, will be split off to another thread.

stockstandard · 19-03-2006, 05:35 PM

Casper, you have not edited my posts, but other admins have as they thought that me questioning results was "Inflammatory"

And I am not questioning your right or your decision to put the airbox in your car, just the point that if your results are correct that the factory airbox is a 10rwkw restriction.

I have not taken my car to the track since i put the MS2 in because it hasnt been that long since I put it in, I have been busy, and AIR is closed. It has made a grand total of 4 passes down the 1/4 (thanks to oildowns, cheers AIR) and did a 14.8 @ 95mph. This was some time ago now (fair few mods since), on street tyres with a 3.08 open wheeler diff and horrible 60' times. Last dyno day it made 146rwkw. So feel free to comaper it in any way you like.

Once again - i am not having a go at you, your car, or your right to spend your money however you like. I would just like to understand HOW the airbox made a 10rwkw difference. Im not just blindly going to believe a dyno chart (and I dont believe you would either). At the same time im not claiming to have all the answers myself, or have the perfect setup. If i did then I would start my own performance shop.

If your would rather i dropped this issue, PM me and ill let it go.

1TUFFUTE · 19-03-2006, 05:47 PM

yes im interested in the detailes too.If ur not prepared to answer or provide details on a subject...then dont allow so much freakn dum *** hype. Im interested!

Casper · 19-03-2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stockstandard

Casper, you have not edited my posts, but other admins have as they thought that me questioning results was "Inflammatory"

And I am not questioning your right or your decision to put the airbox in your car, just the point that if your results are correct that the factory airbox is a 10rwkw restriction.

I have not taken my car to the track since i put the MS2 in because it hasnt been that long since I put it in, I have been busy, and AIR is closed. It has made a grand total of 4 passes down the 1/4 (thanks to oildowns, cheers AIR) and did a 14.8 @ 95mph. This was some time ago now (fair few mods since), on street tyres with a 3.08 open wheeler diff and horrible 60' times. Last dyno day it made 146rwkw. So feel free to comaper it in any way you like.

Once again - i am not having a go at you, your car, or your right to spend your money however you like. I would just like to understand HOW the airbox made a 10rwkw difference. Im not just blindly going to believe a dyno chart (and I dont believe you would either). At the same time im not claiming to have all the answers myself, or have the perfect setup. If i did then I would start my own performance shop.

If your would rather i dropped this issue, PM me and ill let it go.

Better idea actually. I dont want the issue dropped as forums are about free speech and I wont shut that down unless it gets totally out of hand. I think its time to split the conversation off onto its own thread. That way it can have its own life and this thread can get back to entertainment (which is what it was all about).
I see your car is making good power based on your times and ET.. sounds pretty much spot on. My question would be what mods are in it (and what model) as, to make a comparison, that needs to be known. All i had was the original pod, exhaust and forte fuel regulator in mine with the 15.0 pass. Auto is a pig off the line stock too. Personally I think, for a virtually stock car, the mods on it at the time showed a great gain. Nothing like what I expect this time around I admit, but certainly good for the time.

I guess in the end you are right though. I have no reason to question G&D's results so far and doubt I ever will as I am 100% confident in them. What I do want to know though is the ET and MPH because it cant lie. They already know this, Glenn and Matt are well aware this is a real car that will be raced and dyno numbers are not my biggest interest. So yes, I wont accept it unquestioned at all.. but for the moment I will give them my trust as they have shown me no reason to not trust them. Fair call?

stockstandard · 19-03-2006, 05:59 PM

Yep. No argument there at all.

BTW: The other details of my car at the time those 1/4 and kw results were done - EF 5 speed, 3.08 OC diff, wade 1521a, headwork, and chiptorque.

The intake (which is of most interest here) consists of a EL GT snorkle, AU airbox, 3" mandrel pipe, and k&n filter. Other modifications I have tried include larger throttlebodies (only cos i had the chance to cheap), different filters, different pipes, different airbox lids, and modified lowers.

Most of the information i am getting is from a Megasquirt 2 stand alone ECU which datalogs every detail you could possibly want to know about an engine and then some. There is a thread about that here - http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=30765

Once again, happy to be proven wrong here. At least then I know.

Casper · 19-03-2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stockstandard

Yep. No argument there at all.

BTW: The other details of my car at the time those 1/4 and kw results were done - EF 5 speed, 3.08 OC diff, wade 1521a, headwork, and chiptorque.

The intake (which is of most interest here) consists of a EL GT snorkle, AU airbox, 3" mandrel pipe, and k&n filter. Other modifications I have tried include larger throttlebodies (only cos i had the chance to cheap), different filters, different pipes, different airbox lids, and modified lowers.

Most of the information i am getting is from a Megasquirt 2 stand alone ECU which datalogs every detail you could possibly want to know about an engine and then some. There is a thread about that here - http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=30765

Once again, happy to be proven wrong here. At least then I know.

I take it the larger throttle body was a complete waste of time? Everyone I know who has tried it on the I6 has said no gain or even loss.

stockstandard · 19-03-2006, 06:03 PM

Sure was. 146rwkw with standard TB, 145rwkw with 68mm TB. Throttle response made the car a handful to drive at the same time.

1TUFFUTE · 19-03-2006, 06:05 PM

i think u should either edit that or apolagize my friend. I have not once PROPED anyone at any stage, your the one who challenged me simply ИИИ i have Dev5 in my name. Apparently u have and are the prop of the acused and the current preffered tuner in question.not me. I have asked an suppoerted legitimate queries in this thread ИИИ im interested in the gain made by this mod.

and by the way dont talk to me about value in this thread

: