What makes a good oil good?

[TheInterceptor]

It's now the time where I'll be buying oil for my cars. There is a vast array of oils to pick from. There's cheaper brands like Gulf Western to expensive brands like Penrite.
So to the point, what's the difference (or is there a big difference) between fully synthetic GW and fully synthetic Penrite when they have the same grades and ratings and such?

Is it worth spending over $50 for oil when there's the same alleged kind for half cost? What makes them worth so much?
There is also Coles brand but I wouldn't even consider that.

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

It's now the time where I'll be buying oil for my cars. There is a vast array of oils to pick from. There's cheaper brands like Gulf Western to expensive brands like Penrite.
So to the point, what's the difference (or is there a big difference) between fully synthetic GW and fully synthetic Penrite when they have the same grades and ratings and such?

Is it worth spending over $50 for oil when there's the same alleged kind for half cost? What makes them worth so much?
There is also Coles brand but I wouldn't even consider that.

The oil that gives the best UOA results over a period. Some oils just don't work well in some engines as countless UOA's prove.

[RANGEREST]

What makes a good oil good?

It's lubricating properties

[Jastel]

Marketing....

[GASWAGON]

You get wot you pay for!

[sbutler]

Back in the 70s & 80s, many Bathurst's were won on good old GTX, the hype about oil is a manufacturers selling tactic's. Same as the whole synthetic debate.

These 0w20 syn oils are only used to get the car through emission testing, they are low drag, help with economy figure's & smoking if burnt. That way they pass emission testing. Do they offer better engine protection? Not really.
They do handle heat better for racing applications, & can be low sludging.
IMO So as long as you use a good known brand 10/40 that will pretty much suit your everyday applications. If your racing or are using it in extreme applications, then you need to look at something else. That's my opinion, based of years of super bike racing, & just experience trying all this in a practical form. Flame suit on..

[jmack]

taxis get a lot of ks out of their engines and can guarantee they dont put the good stuff in or worry about uoa's

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by jmack

taxis get a lot of ks out of their engines and can guarantee they dont put the good stuff in or worry about uoa's

The engines are always hot and taxis worldwide are used by oil companies and additive formulaters or testing via UOA.

[Maka]

Depending on change intervals, most oils can be good if the recommended viscosity & the most suitable additive package is used for your engine.

cheer's, Maka

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by Maka

Depending on change intervals, most oils can be good if the recommended viscosity & the most suitable additive package is used for your engine.

cheer's, Maka

Yep and not forgetting HTHS which is even more important for many engines.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by sprintman1

Yep and not forgetting HTHS which is even more important for many engines.

High temp/ Hi shear - I value engine protection above an extra 1/2 a litre in fuel economy savings, our summers are only going to get hotter hey!

cheer's, Maka

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by Maka

High temp/ Hi shear - I value engine protection above an extra 1/2 a litre in fuel economy savings, our summers are only going to get hotter hey!

cheer's, Maka

Over recent years I've gone from a staunch thick oil advocate (40W70 Mazda turbo) to the other end of the spectrum 0W20. The more UOA's I read the harder it was to 'stay the course'. 0W30 in the BA now (255,000 kms), will be getting Oiltest or Oilcheck to test this fill to see how it's going particularly as I may have a weeping head gasket.

[Windsor220]

Oil is oil. Just make sure its correct grade

[marty351]

Used to run 40/70 in old corolla as it used to smoke through valves. Winter time and oil light would stay on, but still thrashed guts out of it and managed to get 330k out of the engine, still going strong but everything else was falling apart.

[TheInterceptor]

Hm intersting feedback guys. I am intrigued about lower viscosity oils. Apon start up the oil would travel to every nook and cranny faster than a thicker oil, which means less cold engine wear? But when thrashing the engine it wont be as good? But if theyre used in race engines.....!

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Hm intersting feedback guys. I am intrigued about lower viscosity oils. Apon start up the oil would travel to every nook and cranny faster than a thicker oil, which means less cold engine wear? But when thrashing the engine it wont be as good? But if theyre used in race engines.....!

Race engines aren't designed to do 300,000kms.

[marty351]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Oil is oil. Just make sure its correct grade

Oils ain't oils.
Old friend bought a just out of warranty Datsun 4x4, and used kmx brand (Kmart I think), did plenty of long trips and no real hard work and complained it was smoking at 200ks despite regular oil changes. Old man carefully explained to him that cheap oil is just that. It works, yes, but don't expect miracle mileage.

[Yellow_Festiva]

I wonder who makes Coles / no name / Gulf western oil? You may be surprised....

[Franco Cozzo]

The old boy bought a new Mazda 323 in 2003, serviced it up to 40,000km then its next service was at 190,000km in 2008.

It just got oil top ups with any **** lying about when the oil light came on.

Now its got 420,000km on it, it blows blue smoke every morning like a champ, burns 40W-70 by the sumpfull in 3000km, just puts oil in it when the oil light comes on.

She's more than 200,000km over due for a timing belt.

Jap cars, indestructible.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by marty351

Oils ain't oils.
Old friend bought a just out of warranty Datsun 4x4, and used kmx brand (Kmart I think), did plenty of long trips and no real hard work and complained it was smoking at 200ks despite regular oil changes. Old man carefully explained to him that cheap oil is just that. It works, yes, but don't expect miracle mileage.

I doubt it was smoking because of the oil unless you put the incorrect grade in it. Being a 4x4 I'm guessing it was to do with it being a diesel.

[marty351]

It was a petrol and 20/40 was the normal for that engine. I was only 10-11 years old at the time but remember it well. He has also a very slow driver pecause petrol costs money, the epitome of a tight wad. Also made his kids drive a clapped out Volvo because it was "safe",along with recapped tyres.

[Tassie f100]

It does appear to me that these people who mollycoddle engines and only use the "correct" oil seem to have all sorts of problems whereas those that use any cheap stuff they can pick up at the time and change oil when they get around to it get 3-4 hundred thousand kms without any problems.Maybe oil is oil and as such it doesn't really matter what gets put in the sump

[MattSAU2XR8]

Oils are difficult to work out. If you plan on only keeping the car up to say 200 kkms and not giving it a hiding its likely the engine will be fine whatever you put in it as long as you change it. Obviously if you give it a hiding you may be generating some small metal particles so the more often you change it the better to get rid of these particles. On the other hand you may well still end up spending a small fortune on radiators, transmissions, bushes and ball joints, shocks, brakes, diffs, and so on. So engine oil is only a small part of the overall cost.

And when the oil companies say synthetic all this really means is that the base oil molecules have a similar number of carbon atoms arranged in a similar formation. So for example all have about 30 carbons, I think, rather than some having 20 and some having 40. They really aren't all that much more slippery. Then additionally these oils may include more or better additives, eg. corrosion inhibitors and detergents.

I have noticed that if I put synthetic, eg. Mobil 1 or Valvoline 15/50 in a car instead of a mineral oil of the same weight that it seems to rev a little easier (less friction by whatever mechanism) and its possible that it protects the engine very slightly better as well. And MAY stay in grade a little longer due to better (more expensive) additives.

If we assume that the car uses about 750 litres of fuel over 7500 kms and gets 1/2 percent better fuel economy with better oil then this is 37 litres of fuel, or $50+. So the better oil probably pays for itself anyway. Even if it gave 1/4 percent better economy then this would be $25 worth of fuel so most of the cost difference made up in fuel saving.

Probably more likely to save money in the long run would be to have a schedule for changing out other fluids, eg. transmission, diff, power steering and brake perhaps every 50 kkms (although ZF ? too expensive). Its at least as likely that one of these parts will fail in the given timeframe as the engine starting to blow smoke...

I would be interested if anyone has done a UOI at different oil change intervals for a Ford L6 to see if there is a point at which the metal starts to increase markedly, i.e. oil no longer protecting engine as well as when it was new?

Just my thoughts though.

Matt

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

It does appear to me that these people who mollycoddle engines and only use the "correct" oil seem to have all sorts of problems whereas those that use any cheap stuff they can pick up at the time and change oil when they get around to it get 3-4 hundred thousand kms without any problems.Maybe oil is oil and as such it doesn't really matter what gets put in the sump

Nope and having read thousands of UOA's from many different types of engines over 15-20 years it doesn't work out like that.

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by MattSAU2XR8

Oils are difficult to work out. If you plan on only keeping the car up to say 200 kkms and not giving it a hiding its likely the engine will be fine whatever you put in it as long as you change it. Obviously if you give it a hiding you may be generating some small metal particles so the more often you change it the better to get rid of these particles. On the other hand you may well still end up spending a small fortune on radiators, transmissions, bushes and ball joints, shocks, brakes, diffs, and so on. So engine oil is only a small part of the overall cost.

And when the oil companies say synthetic all this really means is that the base oil molecules have a similar number of carbon atoms arranged in a similar formation. So for example all have about 30 carbons, I think, rather than some having 20 and some having 40. They really aren't all that much more slippery. Then additionally these oils may include more or better additives, eg. corrosion inhibitors and detergents.

I have noticed that if I put synthetic, eg. Mobil 1 or Valvoline 15/50 in a car instead of a mineral oil of the same weight that it seems to rev a little easier (less friction by whatever mechanism) and its possible that it protects the engine very slightly better as well. And MAY stay in grade a little longer due to better (more expensive) additives.

If we assume that the car uses about 750 litres of fuel over 7500 kms and gets 1/2 percent better fuel economy with better oil then this is 37 litres of fuel, or $50+. So the better oil probably pays for itself anyway. Even if it gave 1/4 percent better economy then this would be $25 worth of fuel so most of the cost difference made up in fuel saving.

Probably more likely to save money in the long run would be to have a schedule for changing out other fluids, eg. transmission, diff, power steering and brake perhaps every 50 kkms (although ZF ? too expensive). Its at least as likely that one of these parts will fail in the given timeframe as the engine starting to blow smoke...

I would be interested if anyone has done a UOI at different oil change intervals for a Ford L6 to see if there is a point at which the metal starts to increase markedly, i.e. oil no longer protecting engine as well as when it was new?

Just my thoughts though.

Matt

I change diff/gearbox/ps oils every 50,000 and brake/clutch fluid annually. Engine varies depending on oil type and use. Plenty of trending UOA's in the UOA section at BITOG and virgin UOA's on many different engine/gear oils.

[cram_it_frog]

re this oil thing has any one read the conditions on this shell helix offer of engine warranty if you use there oils

I read some of it and there is a fee you have to pay to shell so they can work out what caused the damage and if it was not the engine oils fault then no cover

It is a very long winded cover note and you really have to be careful as it has lot of exemptions

be interesting to see some one actually try and make claim on the oil
company

it is a good product but is it worth the hassle ?

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by cram_it_frog

re this oil thing has any one read the conditions on this shell helix offer of engine warranty if you use there oils

I read some of it and there is a fee you have to pay to shell so they can work out what caused the damage and if it was not the engine oils fault then no cover

It is a very long winded cover note and you really have to be careful as it has lot of exemptions

be interesting to see some one actually try and make claim on the oil
company

it is a good product but is it worth the hassle ?

Some dealerships are looking at the oil used when making a warranty claim. Say a Low SAPS oil was spec'd and wasn't used they deny the warranty claim. Can get very expensive using the wrong type oil.

[thefargo]

my father, who has long since passed away, used to drive a Morris Minor to work. It burnt and dripped oil. when the oil light came on, he gave the XP falcon an oil change and put the old xp oil into the Morris.
He always used Valvoline, claimed it always came from the same source in Kentucky (I think)

[cram_it_frog]

thefargo have you seen a movie the plank it is about a plank and moris minor

what a laugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyU6...?v=JyU6SonN6mc

[MattSAU2XR8]

Originally Posted by MattSAU2XR8

Oils are difficult to work out. If you plan on only keeping the car up to say 200 kkms and not giving it a hiding its likely the engine will be fine whatever you put in it as long as you change it. Obviously if you give it a hiding you may be generating some small metal particles so the more often you change it the better to get rid of these particles. On the other hand you may well still end up spending a small fortune on radiators, transmissions, bushes and ball joints, shocks, brakes, diffs, and so on. So engine oil is only a small part of the overall cost.

And when the oil companies say synthetic all this really means is that the base oil molecules have a similar number of carbon atoms arranged in a similar formation. So for example all have about 30 carbons, I think, rather than some having 20 and some having 40. They really aren't all that much more slippery. Then additionally these oils may include more or better additives, eg. corrosion inhibitors and detergents.

I have noticed that if I put synthetic, eg. Mobil 1 or Valvoline 15/50 in a car instead of a mineral oil of the same weight that it seems to rev a little easier (less friction by whatever mechanism) and its possible that it protects the engine very slightly better as well. And MAY stay in grade a little longer due to better (more expensive) additives.

If we assume that the car uses about 750 litres of fuel over 7500 kms and gets 1/2 percent better fuel economy with better oil then this is 37 litres of fuel, or $50+. So the better oil probably pays for itself anyway. Even if it gave 1/4 percent better economy then this would be $25 worth of fuel so most of the cost difference made up in fuel saving.

Probably more likely to save money in the long run would be to have a schedule for changing out other fluids, eg. transmission, diff, power steering and brake perhaps every 50 kkms (although ZF ? too expensive). Its at least as likely that one of these parts will fail in the given timeframe as the engine starting to blow smoke...

I would be interested if anyone has done a UOI at different oil change intervals for a Ford L6 to see if there is a point at which the metal starts to increase markedly, i.e. oil no longer protecting engine as well as when it was new?

Just my thoughts though.

Matt

Sorry guys, not enough coffee this morning - 1/2 percent of 750 litres is only 3.75 litres, or about $5.00. So for the synthetic oil to pay for itself in fuel economy, assuming this would need to be a $25 fuel saving, we'd probably be looking at about 2.5 % more fuel economy, which might be stretching it a bit...

So I suppose looking at it this way if the better oil saved you perhaps $5 per oil change in fuel use, then it'd come down to in increased spend of about $600 over the life of the car, or $60 per year for some peace of mind...