Decision on Future Falcon Wagon coming soon.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by prydey

the lines that you have added in support your theory because you put them there. where you have the second line that you claim is the release of the sportwagon, you will notice that the whole industry improved. if the wagon is the reason for the rise in commodore sales, why the rise in falcon?

if there was no wagon, do you really think the falcon would have been close to outselling the sedan?

there is no way that the wagon has boosted commodore sales by 800 - 1000 each month. the monthly sales figures tell a different story. commodore numbers remain consitant with the industry rising and falling regardless of wagon or no wagon.

I would suggest the bump in Falcon sales at that time would be the release of the FG Falcon. Didnt it go on sale around about then? Why no/very little rise in Aurion sales at that time. If Commodore sales were so closely related to the overall market sales why have Commodore sales been decreasing 6 or 7 years? Hasn't the overall market generally been on the rise?

Why couldn't the Falcon sedan outsell the Commodore sedan?

The monthly sales figures suggest to me that the Sportwagon has boosted sales with Commodore sales not necessarily following the total market sales.

Anyway all I was trying to point out was that Commodore sales have been on a general slide for around 7 years and it seems to me that while sales are still decreasing there seemed to be a lift in sales when the Sportwagon was released.

To me there seems to be quite an interest in a lifestyle wagon. Something that doesnt necessarily have to be able to carry a truckload, but something that is more practical than a sedan. Why have SUV's been selling? It must be practicality as in my opinion they have no other endeering features. Whether there is a market big enough there for Ford to take advantage of, well thats their decision, but to say that there is a 400car/month market and thats all there is seems a little defeatist to me.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

RTV wouldn't cost much R+D wise, old RTV parts would fit, and they can ask a decent enough premium. RTV was a brilliant idea I always thought.

FG front suspension is different to BF, so the previous raised front suspension pieces can't be used.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by naddis01

I would suggest the bump in Falcon sales at that time would be the release of the FG Falcon. Didnt it go on sale around about then? Why no/very little rise in Aurion sales at that time. If Commodore sales were so closely related to the overall market sales why have Commodore sales been decreasing 6 or 7 years? Hasn't the overall market generally been on the rise?

.

Same as the Commodore hatch... The demand for large aussie made cars has shrunk due to better imported options like SUV's

Originally Posted by naddis01

Why couldn't the Falcon sedan outsell the Commodore sedan?

The monthly sales figures suggest to me that the Sportwagon has boosted sales with Commodore sales not necessarily following the total market sales.

.

Its about to.
The actual sales figures show no net gain for Holden from the hatch, just a change in mix

Originally Posted by naddis01

Anyway all I was trying to point out was that Commodore sales have been on a general slide for around 7 years and it seems to me that while sales are still decreasing there seemed to be a lift in sales when the Sportwagon was released.

To me there seems to be quite an interest in a lifestyle wagon. Something that doesnt necessarily have to be able to carry a truckload, but something that is more practical than a sedan. Why have SUV's been selling? It must be practicality as in my opinion they have no other endeering features. Whether there is a market big enough there for Ford to take advantage of, well thats their decision, but to say that there is a 400car/month market and thats all there is seems a little defeatist to me.

The Falcon had a lift at the same time which indicates a market rebound and a status quo... initial "pipefill" has settled back to pre hatch sales projections.
Hey, there may very well be a swing to lifestyle hatches.. but those sales are at the expense of the traditional family sedan.. they are NOT incremental sales.
Choice is good though, as it keeps people in the brand.. what they really need to find is models that will get back market share.. The commodore hatch has failed at that.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

I Still think all ford have to do is update the wagon again it is just that simple, maybe just an FG xr6 styled nose on it & maybe control blade rear end for an up speck model with turbo & xt model with leaf spring rear end for fleets. Can't be that hard they did it in the AU days (in sedans), Just think of the ads on telly showing a commodore hatch v8 be swallowed by a Turbo wagon. It would be sensational.

Do all that to sell another 4/500 extra units a month. The wagon would be a big failure.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

FG front suspension is different to BF, so the previous raised front suspension pieces can't be used.

Doesnt the Falcon now use the Territory front suspension and steering rack?

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Same as the Commodore hatch... The demand for large aussie made cars has shrunk due to better imported options like SUV's.

So there is no market for a wagon providing SUV (stupid name) like practicality? By the way do you call all wagons (other than Falcon) and SUV's hatches?

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Its about to..

Yes it is.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The actual sales figures show no net gain for Holden from the hatch, just a change in mix.

What sort of sales figures do you think the sedan would be getting now if the Sportwagon wasnt released? Flattened at ~ 3500/month, increased from there or continued the decline that was evident before that?

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The Falcon had a lift at the same time which indicates a market rebound and a status quo... initial "pipefill" has settled back to pre hatch sales projections.
Hey, there may very well be a swing to lifestyle hatches.. but those sales are at the expense of the traditional family sedan.. they are NOT incremental sales.
Choice is good though, as it keeps people in the brand.. what they really need to find is models that will get back market share.. The commodore hatch has failed at that.

Do you agree that Commodore sedan sales were decreasing prior to the Sportwagon being released? Would you say that Sportwagon sales have remained fairly constant after the initial burst?

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Do all that to sell another 4/500 extra units a month. The wagon would be a big failure.

With those extra units the Falcon wagon would be basically selling as much as the Falcon Ute and the Territory - if not more. Are the Territory and Ute massive failures?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by naddis01

So there is no market for a wagon providing SUV (stupid name) like practicality? By the way do you call all wagons and SUV's hatches?



Yes it is.



What sort of sales figures do you think the sedan would be getting now if the Sportwagon wasnt released? Flattened at ~ 3500/month, increased from there or continued the decline that was evident before that?



Do you agree that Commodore sedan sales were decreasing prior to the Sportwagon being released? Would you say that Sportwagon sales have remained fairly constant after the initial burst?

For me a "wagon" is a long wheelbase version of its sibbling sedan, a "hatch" is a wagon built off the short wheelbase sedan platform.
A SUV is a unique multipurpose wagon/hatch built on its own unique platform...
Personally i think commodore sedan sales would be stronger if the hatch wasnt released, to be honest why would you buy a sedan when you can buy the hatch which uses the sedan wheelbase and platform anyway, i think most hatch owners took advantage of a bit of extra cargo space, why not?
I can see a day where Holden rationalise its range and only offer sedans in the higher spec models and make the base spec commodores hatches only.

[naddis01]

So Commodore sedan figures would have increased from around 3500 if the Sportwagon wasn't released?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by naddis01

So Commodore sedan figures would have increased from around 3500 if the Sportwagon wasn't released?

Um no, i didnt say that did i... i said sedan sales would be stronger than they are now if the hatch wasnt released.

[naddis01]

Would you be able to put a figure on how much stronger they would be?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Would you be able to put a figure on how much stronger they would be?

I think you get my drift.....

[naddis01]

So anywhere between 1 - 1000 then.

Ever thought of politics? (Trying for humour)

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Doesnt the Falcon now use the Territory front suspension and steering rack?

Its a step further envolved, but quite similar.

I don't think they share much, if any, in the way of parts.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Brazen

With those extra units the Falcon wagon would be basically selling as much as the Falcon Ute and the Territory - if not more. Are the Territory and Ute massive failures?

Terri was doing many more units then what it is now. Not much (in context) was spent on the SY2. The ute is still live axle and will stay that way.

The comment I was referring to was to do a complete revamp to the wagon (have a live axle and IRS version, do body an interior, not counting engine upgrades. The money spent on doing this would not be able to justified to sell about 800 units (being optimistic as more private sales would be for the Terri).

If the Wagon was to survive it would be an engine upgrade mid next year, body and interior may be looked at at a later date and this may be minimal, or the wagon would be canned in place for the I4T Falcon.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by naddis01

So Commodore sedan figures would have increased from around 3500 if the Sportwagon wasn't released?

if the commo hatch wasn't released, the comomdore sales would still be around 800 units in front of falcon. commodore sales haven't been doing anything other than following the trend in large car sales.

to me it seems you are saying that if the sportwagon hatch whatever wasn't built then commodore sales would be 1000 less than what they are now (basically delete wagon figures).

since going on sale the wagon sales have almost halved, yet commodore sales have continued to trend with the market.

also, using holden as a guide to what markets are out there is a bit misguided if you ask me. holden could whack there badge on a horse and cart and it would sell, that doesn't mean everyone should go that way.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by prydey

if the commo hatch wasn't released, the comomdore sales would still be around 800 units in front of falcon. commodore sales haven't been doing anything other than following the trend in large car sales.

to me it seems you are saying that if the sportwagon hatch whatever wasn't built then commodore sales would be 1000 less than what they are now (basically delete wagon figures).

since going on sale the wagon sales have almost halved, yet commodore sales have continued to trend with the market.

also, using holden as a guide to what markets are out there is a bit misguided if you ask me. holden could whack there badge on a horse and cart and it would sell, that doesn't mean everyone should go that way.

It seems to me that you are saying that the Sportwagon has not added one sale to the total Commodore sales.

The Sportwagon had an initial bubble of sales like most new models and seems to have now settled at around 800-1000 units

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

For me a "wagon" is a long wheelbase version of its sibbling sedan, a "hatch" is a wagon built off the short wheelbase sedan platform.
.......

Can you tell the German marques they should be calling their wagons (avant/touring) "hatches" as they are based on the sedans as well - lol

Originally Posted by 4Vman

A SUV is a unique multipurpose wagon/hatch built on its own unique platform....

Basically they have an increased ride height which some people like.

Is it a wagon or a hatch ? - or can it be both ! - does that mean the commodore hatch is actually a wagon ?!

---------------------

[outback_ute]

I agree Chopped, outside of Falcon/Commodore wagons how many others are on longer wheelbases - of course many have longer rear overhangs than sedan/hatch counterparts. 4Vman does that mean an XK-XY Falcon wagon is a 'hatch'? (particularly when they have a tailgate setup not a hatch!)

Back on topic, I think the release of the Commodore wagon caused a spike in sales as is clear on the graph, whether that is sustainable will be better illustrated in the longer term - see whether the obvious pent-up demand for the wagon is reflected in repeat/ongoing sales. By way of illustration it might mean +10% rather than the initial +30% surge.

The Commodore is a different case than a Falcon wagon as there isn't a Territory equivalent for Holden, not to mention Mondeo. How many potential Falcon wagon customers are not satisfied with either of those vehicles? And then there is the split between commercial, "old school" wagon and "lifestyle" wagon customers wanting different things - one wagon won't satisfy all those requirements - a pick 2 out of 3 situation! Mind you the so-called lifestyle wagon isn't a new concept, more that the Commodore wagon has taken things back to the 1960's way it was done - compare a VE wagon with an XP for example.

I still think there needs to be higher overall volume to make not only a wagon but the entire platform exist come platform renewal time.

[Trendseeker]

Back off topic, the Commodore Sportwagon is a hatch because:

* it has the same wheelbase as the sedan

* the tailgate lifts straight up - Holden make a virtue of this in their ads: you can back it up against a wall and still open the tailgate. Doors that open upwards (rather than outwards) are called hatches - think aeroplanes and subs for example

* the hatch is on the back, so it's a hatchback, regardless of what the marketeers at Holden call it

The Commodore Sportwagon is not a wagon because:

* the term wagon is a term used interchangeably with station sedan. A station sedan was originally designed to transport people and their luggage from the train station to their hotel; the back section of a sedan was lengthened to carry the luggage. The Sportwagon can carry passengers (with the back seat up) or luggage (with the back seat down) but with its limited space it cannot to do both

What is a lifestyle wagon anyway? It sounds like a term you would find in a brochure. Yes, the Sportwagon looks good and would be fun to drive. So they got the "sport" bit right, but as for practicality, it isn't, so they got the "wagon" bit wrong.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by 2008WhiteSR

Back off topic, the Commodore Sportwagon is a hatch because:

* it has the same wheelbase as the sedan

Thats irrelevant.

* the tailgate lifts straight up - Holden make a virtue of this in their ads: you can back it up against a wall and still open the tailgate. Doors that open upwards (rather than outwards) are called hatches - think aeroplanes and subs for example

* the hatch is on the back, so it's a hatchback, regardless of what the marketeers at Holden call it

I dont buy that. The 2 arguments at first seem contradictory. How can it be on the back but still lift upwards? Its just good design and ergonomics.

The Commodore Sportwagon is not a wagon because:

* the term wagon is a term used interchangeably with station sedan. A station sedan was originally designed to transport people and their luggage from the train station to their hotel; the back section of a sedan was lengthened to carry the luggage. The Sportwagon can carry passengers (with the back seat up) or luggage (with the back seat down) but with its limited space it cannot to do both

Wouldnt that disqualify it from being a stationwagon, not specifically a wagon?

[Trendseeker]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Thats irrelevant.

It's relevant. When differentiating between the two, the first feature to look at is whether or how the sedan platform has been extended. It hasn't in the Sportwagon's case. Therefore, it doesn't pass the first test, so we move on to the next.

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

How can it be on the back but still lift upwards? Its just good design and ergonomics.

The definition of a hatch is: [reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hatch]

1.

a. An opening, as in the deck of a ship, in the roof or floor of a building, or in an aircraft.

b. The cover for such an opening.

c. A hatchway.

d. Nautical A ship's compartment.

2. The hinged rear door of a hatchback.
3. A floodgate

Note point number 2 above. I'm not sure how else to answer your question. A hatch can be on the back. It can also be on the side as it is in an aeroplane. If it's a door that lifts upwards rather than outwards it is a hatch. It isn't design and ergonomics; that's how hatches open.

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Wouldnt that disqualify it from being a stationwagon, not specifically a wagon?

Wagon is a shortened form of Station Wagon. [reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_wagon]

"Also sometimes referred to simply as a wagon, the term 'station wagon' is used in American, Australian..."

I'll list a few more references that differentiate a hatchback from a wagon.

[reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hatchback]
Hatchback n. An automobile having a sloping back with a hinged rear door that opens upward.

[reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/station+wagon]
Station wagon n. An automobile with one or more rows of folding or removable seats behind the driver and no luggage compartment but an area behind the seats into which suitcases, parcels, etc., can be loaded through a tailgate.

[reference: http://www.autotropolis.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wagon]
Station Wagon vs. Hatchback Body Style
"Hatchback vehicles are similar in design to wagons, though certain distinctions are evident. While both body styles retain an extended 2-box design, hatchbacks feature a more sloping, gradual height decline in the rear of the vehicle. In comparison, wagons allow for superior cargo space by employing a near vertical drop-off in height at the rear bumper."

Comment: The Sportwagon starts sloping from the B pillar and is not near vertical at the tailgate. Hence it more closely meets the definition of a hatchback than it does a wagon.

[reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_wagon]
"A station wagon is a passenger automobile with a body style similar to a sedan, or saloon, but with the roofline following the full, sometimes extended rear cargo area and sometimes an extra row of sometimes rear-facing seats, ending with a more vertical door than on a hatchback."
"Comparison with hatchbacks
Most station wagons are modified sedan-type car bodies, having the main interior area extended to the near-vertical rear window over what would otherwise be the trunk (boot) of the sedan version. A hatchback car, although meeting a similar description, would not enjoy the full height of the passenger cabin all the way to the back; the rear glass of a hatchback being sloped further from vertical."

You have to conclude that the Sportwagon is a hatchback. The only question remaining is why are Sportwagon fans so touchy about it being called a hatchback?

Back on topic, I hope they give the Falcon wagon another run for a few more years. They should give the current model the same kind of facelift that Holden gives its models in mid life. Change the trim, add a chrome strip to the tailgate, change the tail light lenses, give it a new grille, change the faceplates on the instrument panel and the instrument lighting colour, add a air outlet on the front side panels; only minor changes that don't require any mods to the major components to keep development costs low. And finally, badge it as the MKIV.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by 2008WhiteSR

It's relevant. When differentiating between the two, the first feature to look at is whether or how the sedan platform has been extended. It hasn't in the Sportwagon's case. Therefore, it doesn't pass the first test, so we move on to the next.

Find me 5 wagons currently on the market that are on a longer wheelbase to the sedan equivalent.

The definition of a hatch is: [reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hatch]

1.

a. An opening, as in the deck of a ship, in the roof or floor of a building, or in an aircraft.

b. The cover for such an opening.

c. A hatchway.

d. Nautical A ship's compartment.

2. The hinged rear door of a hatchback.
3. A floodgate

Note point number 2 above. I'm not sure how else to answer your question. A hatch can be on the back. It can also be on the side as it is in an aeroplane. If it's a door that lifts upwards rather than outwards it is a hatch. It isn't design and ergonomics; that's how hatches open.

How is that any different then to something like a Falcon wagon? They all open up in the same basic fashion.

You have to conclude that the Sportwagon is a hatchback. The only question remaining is why are Sportwagon fans so touchy about it being called a hatchback?

Thats hardly a conclusion at all. Maybe its simply what it is - a sportswagon. A wagon by vague nature doesnt have to meet one particular set of criteria. Hatchbacks certainly don't, hence other cars known as liftbacks, sportbacks, notchbacks etc.

[EgoFG]

Lets just call it a fastback !

[bigdude1011]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Lets just call it a fastback !

It wouldn't be a fastback, A fastback is like the Telstar TX-5 and early Corolla Seca.

It would be more of a slowback

[outback_ute]

Have a look at the Mazda6 - sedan, hatch and wagon - and tell me which one the Commodore wagon looks like? A wagon has a longer roofline that a hatch/sedan. I would ask the opposite question - why are some so rabid about calling it a Commodore hatch? They did that for a motor show a few years back - the SSX concept link

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by bigdude1011

It wouldn't be a fastback, A fastback is like the Telstar TX-5 and early Corolla Seca.

It would be more of a slowback

but I am sure this was the look that they were after:

[MONSOON]

That VW is cool! (for a vw)

[Trendseeker]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Find me 5 wagons currently on the market that are on a longer wheelbase to the sedan equivalent.

Why do they have to be current models? Station wagons have been around for 70 years or more. Ford Falcon wagon, Holden Astra wagon, Toyota Corolla wagon, Holden Commodore wagon (before they replaced it with the current hatchback model), Mazda 323 wagon. All had longer wheelbases to give the superior storage space of a wagon (as per the earlier definitions).

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

How is that any different then to something like a Falcon wagon? They all open up in the same basic fashion.

The Falcon wagon door opens outwards, not upwards. When fully open, the door extends outward from the rear for the vehicle. You can stand under the opened door of the Falcon wagon but you can't do that with the Sportwagon. Try both in the rain. You'll stay dry under the Falcon and be drenched standing next to your hatch.

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Thats hardly a conclusion at all.

What? I've presented definitions of a hatchback from more than one source and the Sportwagon more closely fits with those than it does a wagon. That's a conclusion.

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Maybe its simply what it is - a sportswagon. A wagon by vague nature doesnt have to meet one particular set of criteria. Hatchbacks certainly don't, hence other cars known as liftbacks, sportbacks, notchbacks etc.

You'll find that at least some of those terms (eg liftback) are a certain manufacturer's (Toyota) attempt to give their hatchback a new name. I don't mind any of those terms - they define a certain style of car.

[Trendseeker]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Have a look at the Mazda6 - sedan, hatch and wagon - and tell me which one the Commodore wagon looks like? A wagon has a longer roofline that a hatch/sedan. I would ask the opposite question - why are some so rabid about calling it a Commodore hatch? They did that for a motor show a few years back - the SSX concept link

I can see why you would compare a Sportwagon to a Mazda6 - the storage space is quite small in the Commodore. It's more the slope of the roofline rather than the length.

I'm not rabid about calling it a hatch (no frothing at the mouth here); I'm simply observing that it more closely matches the description of a hatch.
You can call it anything you like.

No one has answered my questions about why Sportwagon fans are so touchy and what a lifestyle wagon is. I suppose we could call your outback ute a desert wagon if it suits your lifestyle.