Audi shifts away from dual clutch transmissions

[Express]

Audi shifts away from dual clutch transmissions


Next-gen RS4 and RS5 likely to run eight-speed automatic


David McCowen
16 June, 2016




Cockpit Audi A5 Coupe. Photo: Supplied


The brand that introduced dual-clutch transmissions to Australia is gradually moving away from the technology for some models.

Audi's first-generation TT V6 was the first car on sale in Australia with a dual-clutch transmission, a feature that has since been adopted by brands ranging from luxury rivals BMW and Mercedes-Benz to economy cars from the likes of Ford and Hyundai.



Audi A5 Coupe. Photo: Supplied


Originally developed for performance cars such as the TT, Volkswagen Golf R32 and Bugatti Veyron, the technology is gradually being withdrawn from high-torque machines in favour of smoother and more reliable torque converter transmissions.

Audi dumped the seven-speed "S-Tronic" dual clutch transmission in the new S4 and S5 performance sedan, wagon and coupe that blends 260kW of power with 500Nm of turbocharged torque. That car features an eight-speed ZF transmission likely to feature in the next-generation RS4 and RS5 performance cars that trade a 4.2-litre naturally aspirated V8 and seven-speed dual-clutch auto for a development of the S4 and S5's high-torque V6.

Florian Beck, powertrain engineer for the new Audi S4 and S5, says the shift is primarily "a torque issue".

"You have to look at the maximum torque. Up to 400Nm is the perfect combination for the dual clutch transmission, but this one has more than 500Nm," he says.

"The new eight-speed transmission is very consistent and very efficient. With eight gears you have very low engine revs while driving. It's the perfect combination of power and efficiency.

"With higher torque combining with tiptronic is the ideal combination... That's the current strategy."

Volkswagen and Audi have had a slightly bumpy road with dual-clutch transmissions, recalling thousands of cars equipped with a dry-clutch seven-speed auto primarily used in low-power applications.

Among its rivals, Ford also shifted away from dual-clutch transmissions and back to a conventional automatic when the latest Focus arrived in 2015 after a spate of issues left thousands of customers with faulty cars.

Dual-clutch transmissions can also be jerker than conventional units, delivering power in an abrupt manner from time to time.

Beck acknowledges that there are low-speed driveability benefits to the shift away from dual-clutch transmissions.

"With a torque converter it helps for the takeoff. And of course it's very important to calibrate the whole power train, it has to work together," he says.

"You have to find the perfect blend between dynamics, efficiency and comfort.

"The eight-speed transmission is the perfect combination."

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/a...16-gpkryu.html

[Trump]

In other words, they were sick of replacing them under warranty...

[mcnews]

Yep buying anything DCT secondhand would be a very, very, very brave move. Thousands of these things will be sent to wreckers while still perfectly good cars in every sense but DCT replacement etc. would render them unviable.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Yep buying anything DCT secondhand would be a very, very, very brave move. Thousands of these things will be sent to wreckers while still perfectly good cars in every sense but DCT replacement etc. would render them unviable.

Having said that, if a tranny specialist was able to streamline the repair (the Ford ones apparently need their gaskets changed) then advertise it as a drive in / out fixed price service with no surprises at a reasonable price they would probably do quite well.

There are a heap of youtube clips of workshops doing this in the 'States.

Ford wanted $700 just to 'inspect' my gearbox.

There are a whole heap of these DCT's in multiple cars that are out and about out of warranty..

Not a bad business case to be honest, for cars already on the road or for people buying faulty cars for nix, repairing the DC T and selling them with a basic warranty.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Having said that, if a tranny specialist was able to streamline the repair (the Ford ones apparently need their gaskets changed) then advertise it as a drive in / out fixed price service with no surprises at a reasonable price they would probably do quite well.

There are a heap of youtube clips of workshops doing this in the 'States.

Ford wanted $700 just to 'inspect' my gearbox.

There are a whole heap of these DCT's in multiple cars that are out and about out of warranty..

Not a bad business case to be honest, for cars already on the road or for people buying faulty cars for nix, repairing the DC T and selling them with a basic warranty.

You have to wonder why they reinvented the wheel , the conventional tranny is pretty reliable and simple , why add complexity to something that works well.
the very concept of these things ....eek .
As we have seen on the repairs of these dsg boxes on youtube, the are an absolute nightmare for repairs , you have to wonder what where they thinking .

[TUF_302]

These gearboxes that bad/complicated???

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by TUF_302

These gearboxes that bad/complicated???

Well I guess that explains this:

Originally Posted by Express

Problems under warranty

Percentage of respondents who faced issues with their new car, broken down by brand.

Holden: 68%
Ford: 65%
Audi: 62%

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Well I guess that explains this:

That doesn't explain the gearbox. Skoda also uses the group's gearboxes and comes out high up in reliability surveys, whereas VW and Audi consistently have worse reliability. There are plenty of other factors at play, probably fair to say revolving around quality control and general standards in the three companies.

My rule of thumb for VAG products is: Skoda is their quality brand, Audi is the prestige (doesn't necessarily = quality) brand and VW is the cheap and cheerful take-pot-luck brand.

[Trump]

I don't know of any transmission shops in Melbourne that touch DSG-type gearboxes other than in a remove and replace capacity. The same goes for CVT-type transmissions, as the OEM either doesn't have service parts or refuses to resell them if they exist.

[EB#]

"....smoother and more reliable torque converter transmissions."

Stating the obvious. About time.

[Sabantien]

The girlfriend's A1 has the DSG, and it's very smooth when you're driving normally, barely notice any gear changes. Admittedly I'd say the same for the 6 speed zf in my Ford.

I think the idea is a good one and I'm sure given more development it'd be quite reliable too, but there's probably no real need to be overcomplicating gears that way.

[XR Martin]

Driven a few current model Golfs and I wouldnt describe the transmissions as smooth...
I reckon the 250k old BTR in my EL is smoother on occasions.

Sure when you get on the throttle they are very quick and efficient, but thats not how most people drive them.

[malazn mafia]

ZF are the king of transmissions. Waiting for the day when the ZF 8 Speed can be shoehorned into a BF or newer Falcon.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

ZF are the king of transmissions. Waiting for the day when the ZF 8 Speed can be shoehorned into a BF or newer Falcon.

It would be an epic task, one that may be too much considering the transmission would cost far more than the recipient vehicle, let alone the costs associated with fitting it to a Falcon (structural and electronic).

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Express

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/a...16-gpkryu.html

So how come 2016 Transporter/Multivans with 450Nm still have dsg boxes.

[Sprintey]

Audis (or VW) with 8 speed ZF across the range would be awesome.

[Express]

Why stop at 8, isn't Ford currently working on a 10 speed?

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by Express

Why stop at 8, isn't Ford currently working on a 10 speed?

Ford and GM are developing one together because economies of scale.

[v8snerlo]

I'm sure repairs on any gearbox isn't cheap. VW made the mistake of going to the dry clutch seven speeds as opposed to the wet clutches in the six speeders which were a lot more reliable. Granted, they take a little getting used to driving as they are essentially a robotised manual gearbox. I can speak personally about this as my two cars have a dsg and a conventional torque converter. If I am honest, the dsg in my R36 s**ts all over the tranny in the territory. I'm sure that if ford had kept the proper zf for the diesels then it might be a little closer but for smoothness in normal driving, the dsg wins hands down in my situation. As for reliability, depends on how astute the owner is on maintenance. Ford failed with their dsg but don't be quick to tar all dsg's based on one brand. My dad has an 8 speeder torque converter in his Q7 and it is a great smooth gearbox. They handle the power of modern cars brilliantly and are very smooth at doing it. Everyone will have a differing opinion maybe to what I have experienced but this is just my opinion. I'm not against one gearbox as opposed to the other and I welcome torque converters back, especially with the modern ones with a thousand gears! ��

[mik]

Originally Posted by v8snerlo

I'm sure repairs on any gearbox isn't cheap. VW made the mistake of going to the dry clutch seven speeds as opposed to the wet clutches in the six speeders which were a lot more reliable. Granted, they take a little getting used to driving as they are essentially a robotised manual gearbox. I can speak personally about this as my two cars have a dsg and a conventional torque converter. If I am honest, the dsg in my R36 s**ts all over the tranny in the territory. I'm sure that if ford had kept the proper zf for the diesels then it might be a little closer but for smoothness in normal driving, the dsg wins hands down in my situation. As for reliability, depends on how astute the owner is on maintenance. Ford failed with their dsg but don't be quick to tar all dsg's based on one brand. My dad has an 8 speeder torque converter in his Q7 and it is a great smooth gearbox. They handle the power of modern cars brilliantly and are very smooth at doing it. Everyone will have a differing opinion maybe to what I have experienced but this is just my opinion. I'm not against one gearbox as opposed to the other and I welcome torque converters back, especially with the modern ones with a thousand gears! ��

i get what your saying with the driving experience , and it great your dad has had a good experience with his limo , but im thinking the over all experience as time goes on , reliability ,repairs , cost etc ..

i suspect that most territory cog swappers will ........barring dodgey build quality or poorly maintained ed ones will still be running nicely in ten years time with just general maintenance .

its probably a bit unfair to compare the old technology , but looking at my stoneage AU which has done 240,000 kliks of varied driving from being a tow vehicle to driven like grandpa , to chirping it into second gear when a bit of youthful exuberance shows it head on the odd occasion.
i look back on the nearly 11 years ive had this old banger for , and the only thing the auto has had , is an extension housing seal , an auto cooler when i first bought it , servicing by yours truly until last couple of years until old age health started dwindling a bit, and a line pressure adjustment during a service about two years ago by my new auto servicing fella.
i might add the auto still sounds good and works well , it will probably out last the car i think .
This to me is the big picture,
yes the old torque converter auto may not quite have the driveability of the newer ones , but simplicity , reliability, ease of maintenance , cost of maintenance ,general owner satisfaction , it is pretty hard to beat imo , and you dont need a workshop computer to re calibrate everything after doing maintenance ,it just works .

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by mik

i get what your saying with the driving experience , and it great your dad has had a good experience with his limo , but im thinking the over all experience as time goes on , reliability ,repairs , cost etc ..

i suspect that most territory cog swappers will ........barring dodgey build quality or poorly maintained ed ones will still be running nicely in ten years time with just general maintenance .

Mik our one is now 9 years and 236Km and the 6 speed ZF is exactly as you described, smooth, reliable - sharp shifts, good performance mode. It's the early AWD one that is the proper ZF not the licenced version, and has had fluid replaced twice. I remember the fluid being described as 'sealed for life of gearbox' (disposable mentality?) but my mechanic reckons otherwise and the gearbox enjoyed the fluid swaps. I've asked about the 'milkshaking' and so far no symptoms, including lots of towing early in the vehicle's life. Other stuff may bust or need re-bushing, but the drivetrain will keep going a long while.

[Revolver]

I don't understand the fascination of car manufacturers to increase the amount of gears supplied. Why does anyone need 8 gears? Sure the Veyron has 7 but 7th is for the high speed run to 400kmh & beyond.... You won't be doing that in a golf. Or Audi.

I remember Jeromy Clarkson tested a convertible Cadillac that had a 7 speed slush box and he hated it. Because "Your toenail has to grow a thousandth of an inch and the gearbox changes either up, or down, and your don't know which one. *looks down at console of car* "STOP IT! Just be a gearbox!!!!"

And that competely makes sense because the more you increase the amount of grears, the closer the ratios and each speed would need a certain optimum gear. All those gear changes would sheet me to tears.

In reality 6 is the most you need. If a V8 Supercar can do 300kmh with a 6 speed, a road car can by far live with 6 as well.

[Sabantien]

Originally Posted by Revolver

I don't understand the fascination of car manufacturers to increase the amount of gears supplied. Why does anyone need 8 gears? Sure the Veyron has 7 but 7th is for the high speed run to 400kmh & beyond.... You won't be doing that in a golf. Or Audi.

I remember Jeromy Clarkson tested a convertible Cadillac that had a 7 speed slush box and he hated it. Because "Your toenail has to grow a thousandth of an inch and the gearbox changes either up, or down, and your don't know which one. *looks down at console of car* "STOP IT! Just be a gearbox!!!!"

And that competely makes sense because the more you increase the amount of grears, the closer the ratios and each speed would need a certain optimum gear. All those gear changes would sheet me to tears.

In reality 6 is the most you need. If a V8 Supercar can do 300kmh with a 6 speed, a road car can by far live with 6 as well.

Fuel economy. More gears, less revving. Very little to do with top speed.
The gear changes don't bother you because they're autos and chances are unless you're thrashing the car you don't even notice them.

That said, my gf's 7 speed revs higher at 100 than my 6 speed, but a 4l n/a 6 vs a 1.4 turbo 4, it's just a very different beast.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Revolver

I don't understand the fascination of car manufacturers to increase the amount of gears supplied. Why does anyone need 8 gears? Sure the Veyron has 7 but 7th is for the high speed run to 400kmh & beyond.... You won't be doing that in a golf. Or Audi.

I remember Jeromy Clarkson tested a convertible Cadillac that had a 7 speed slush box and he hated it. Because "Your toenail has to grow a thousandth of an inch and the gearbox changes either up, or down, and your don't know which one. *looks down at console of car* "STOP IT! Just be a gearbox!!!!"

And that competely makes sense because the more you increase the amount of grears, the closer the ratios and each speed would need a certain optimum gear. All those gear changes would sheet me to tears.

In reality 6 is the most you need. If a V8 Supercar can do 300kmh with a 6 speed, a road car can by far live with 6 as well.

I agree with this and sometimes wonder why I have 6 speeds.

I live in the country and 99% of my driving is done at 120-130k's.
When I'm in the city I find the thing a right pain, constantly changing. Now I use manual mode and don't let it go over 4th. The 5.0 s/c will chug at ~1000rpm otherwise.
With all these extra gears comes extra cost, imagine milkshaking a 10 speed, the cost of repair would nearly get you a new car.
I was more than happy with the old BTR. Pretty much bulletproof and cheap to repair.

Maybe I'm just showing my age...idk

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Revolver

I don't understand the fascination of car manufacturers to increase the amount of gears supplied. Why does anyone need 8 gears? Sure the Veyron has 7 but 7th is for the high speed run to 400kmh & beyond.... You won't be doing that in a golf. Or Audi.

I remember Jeromy Clarkson tested a convertible Cadillac that had a 7 speed slush box and he hated it. Because "Your toenail has to grow a thousandth of an inch and the gearbox changes either up, or down, and your don't know which one. *looks down at console of car* "STOP IT! Just be a gearbox!!!!"

And that competely makes sense because the more you increase the amount of grears, the closer the ratios and each speed would need a certain optimum gear. All those gear changes would sheet me to tears.

In reality 6 is the most you need. If a V8 Supercar can do 300kmh with a 6 speed, a road car can by far live with 6 as well.

The crazy part, is that back in the day when engines produced their max power around 3,000rpm, and ran out of puff at 4,000, we could have done with more than two gears. Now days, I think we're heading into ridiculous territory, particularly with large powerful engines.
It's like shavers. Yes, twin blades are better, and triples a bit better still (although harder to clean) but do we really need 5 blades?

[Express]

For those that say they don’t like 6 and 7 speed autos because they are constantly changing in traffic I got to say I don’t even notice mine.

It says more about the quality to me than anything else as a good box should seamlessly know where it needs to be then become more animalistic when placed into sports mode by firming up and holding the gears to the limiter when under acceleration and rev matching as it works its way back down.

A had a V8 Calais a couple of years back and it’s was OEM rubbish, absolute vile as it hunted gears all over the place but I was amazed at the transformation when I had it tuned.

Good software is the key.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Express

For those that say they don’t like 6 and 7 speed autos because they are constantly changing in traffic I got to say I don’t even notice mine.

It says more about the quality to me than anything else as a good box should seamlessly know where it needs to be then become more animalistic when placed into sports mode by firming up and holding the gears to the limiter when under acceleration and rev matching as it works its way back down.

A had a V8 Calais a couple of years back and it’s was OEM rubbish, absolute vile as it hunted gears all over the place but I was amazed at the transformation when I had it tuned.

Good software is the key.

Mine doesn't hunt so much with the Miami engine but it definitely gets itself into a gear far too tall for the road speed. The Miami has so much torque that it tries to run around at 1000-1200 rpm. It's sweet spot for economy is up around 16-1800 rpm, hence why I lock it into 4th.
That and the tendency for the ZF to lockup in every gear makes it painful.

It might be that all the country driving has made it behave that way over time.
Still painful though.

Agree on the software.

[IanC]

Originally Posted by Revolver

I don't understand the fascination of car manufacturers to increase the amount of gears supplied. Why does anyone need 8 gears?

Drivers don't need umpteen gears. The extra gears are for the fuel consumption test which is totally artificial and nothing to do with real driving. Extra gears make the fuel consumption look good on the test and that can be used in advertising. Real world driving is unlikely to get anything like those test figures.

[v8snerlo]

Get used to it mate there are nine speeders out there now and tens are on their way. I think nine and ten are a little over the top though. Eight in my old mans Q7 does actually work from my experience. It is a twin turbo diesel V8 though! I have named it the animal because believe me, once going it is a ferocious beast when you put your foot down.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by v8snerlo

Get used to it mate there are nine speeders out there now and tens are on their way. I think nine and ten are a little over the top though. Eight in my old mans Q7 does actually work from my experience. It is a twin turbo diesel V8 though! I have named it the animal because believe me, once going it is a ferocious beast when you put your foot down.

People probably thought the same thing when cars went from 3sp autos to 4 and 5sp and same with manual trans going from 3 to 4, then to 5 and 6.

We'll probably look back on cars in 30 years time and laugh that they only had 6 gears once upon a time