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Old 15-06-2013, 05:58 AM   #1
buggerlugs
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Default Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

http://www.news.com.au/business/comp...-1226664050759

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Old 15-06-2013, 06:50 AM   #2
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

Now Ford Aus. is done & dusted, it is amazing how the media have now put all their negative attention towards Holden. Dark days ahead for aussie manufacturing unfortunately!
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Old 15-06-2013, 06:59 AM   #3
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

Ehh... another JD article
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Old 15-06-2013, 07:00 AM   #4
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

Have they started on Toyota yet?

Last edited by flappist; 15-06-2013 at 09:29 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 15-06-2013, 02:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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Have they started on Toyota yet?
They will, when they done sucking the blood out of lion and putting holden out of business.
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Old 15-06-2013, 09:10 AM   #6
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

it the article is correct I understand why Ford pulled out $50 / hour is unstainable in the current climate. if Ford workers had taken a cut to realistic levels they might still have a future.
I realise that it is a JD article and the figure may be wrong but anything close to this figure will spell the end of the car industry in Australia.
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Old 15-06-2013, 09:19 AM   #7
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

I understand Mercedes-benz factory workers in their plants in Germany are on the equilivent of an average of $32 U.S.per hour. Not sure if that's the all-up cost to Mercedes-benz or the core hourly rate to be honest.
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Old 15-06-2013, 10:03 AM   #8
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

Make no mistake, Holden are relieved that Ford made the decision to pull out. They are going to do the same and are already getting people ready for it.
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Old 15-06-2013, 10:11 AM   #9
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Default

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Originally Posted by au3xr6 View Post
it the article is correct I understand why Ford pulled out $50 / hour is unstainable in the current climate. if Ford workers had taken a cut to realistic levels they might still have a future.
I realise that it is a JD article and the figure may be wrong but anything close to this figure will spell the end of the car industry in Australia.


You should keep your opinion to yourself when you have no idea. I'm a top level fitter and Turner at ford's and it's no where even close to 50 an hour, Production workers less again.
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Old 15-06-2013, 10:37 AM   #10
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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Originally Posted by Cheese3 View Post
You should keep your opinion to yourself when you have no idea. I'm a top level fitter and Turner at ford's and it's no where even close to 50 an hour, Production workers less again.
you may be missing the bit its not what you get but what you cost per hr..
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Old 15-06-2013, 10:43 AM   #11
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

And that's the point people see a screaming headline like $50/hour costst of an employee and assume that's the actual hourly rate.
What companies do is add up all the benefit values (cash and non-cash) to employees including wages, leave, Super contributions,
work cover insurance, training ect and then they divide through by the actual hours worked for the company which excludes
annual leave, sick leave, public holidays and any long service available.

Another sneaky one is down days when no work is done but employees receive half pay...

This is not just something specific to Ford or Holden, it's on most people's salaray and wage packages,
yet we never actually realise the cash benefit of the hourly rate attributed to actual utilization.
I was shocked when I worked out my own actual hourly rate including all benefits and allowances.

Last edited by jpd80; 15-06-2013 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 15-06-2013, 10:50 AM   #12
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
I was shocked when I worked out my own actual hourly rate including all benefits and allowances.
The trick is to make sure you are worth it to your employer.
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A G8E would be good if Ford marketed squarely at Calais V8 owners. They need to bring back the walking fingers like in the initial FG ads, but this time have the fingers crushing Calais' as they walk along, with some relaxing background Led Zeppelin music and Marcos Ambrose in stubbies and singlet driving it.
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Old 15-06-2013, 10:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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Originally Posted by Gobes32 View Post
The trick is to make sure you are worth it to your employer.
That's right, the perceived contribution we make to our respective employers business is why we're all paid differently...

All I know is that this very divisive topic was used as an excuse for Ford to push through,
a two tier wage system ($14/hr new hires) something rejected by workers in Canada and Ford Australia

Quote:
It is a tricky one to work out as it costs the same in labour to build a Territory Titanium as it does a commercial one tonner.
That's why diesel in territory was such a huge transformation in fortunes for Ford,
a lot of sub $40K sales immediately turned int +$40K sales, pity a similar change
was not able to be done with falcon but years of discounting XR6 made it the new XT
and destroyed any perceives +$40K cache..

Last edited by jpd80; 15-06-2013 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 15-06-2013, 02:38 PM   #14
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheese3 View Post
You should keep your opinion to yourself when you have no idea. I'm a top level fitter and Turner at ford's and it's no where even close to 50 an hour, Production workers less again.
I have a right to my opinion read my post before you throw venomous posts around .
to make it understandable to a top level fitter I have highlighted the parts you obviously missed in jumping to unreasonable conclusions.
maybe if Fords top level fitters are not capable of reading a simple post without getting it wrong it may explain their problem
sorry if I hurt your feelings but I usually expect people to accurately read and comprehend what I write before flaming me.

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Originally Posted by au3xr6 View Post
if the article is correct I understand why Ford pulled out $50 / hour is unstainable in the current climate. if Ford workers had taken a cut to realistic levels they might still have a future.
I realise that it is a JD article and the figure may be wrong but anything close to this figure will spell the end of the car industry in Australia.
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Old 15-06-2013, 10:26 AM   #15
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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Labour accounts for 65 per cent of a vehicle's manufacturing cost in Australia, say local factory
That can't be right. If Dowling believes the components of a car costs less then the labour involved assembling it he's a bigger idiot then I thought. He hasn't mentioned if he is including all R&D and work before the first unit is assembled for sale if, he has without stating so then he has written a deliberating misleading story.
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Old 15-06-2013, 10:45 AM   #16
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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That can't be right. If Dowling believes the components of a car costs less then the labour involved assembling it he's a bigger idiot then I thought. He hasn't mentioned if he is including all R&D and work before the first unit is assembled for sale if, he has without stating so then he has written a deliberating misleading story.
I was told labour accounts for 18%, so someone has their figures wrong. R&D and tooling costs make up half the cost of a car if worked out over the lifetime of a vehicle.

It is a tricky one to work out as it costs the same in labour to build a Territory Titanium as it does a commercial one tonner.
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A G8E would be good if Ford marketed squarely at Calais V8 owners. They need to bring back the walking fingers like in the initial FG ads, but this time have the fingers crushing Calais' as they walk along, with some relaxing background Led Zeppelin music and Marcos Ambrose in stubbies and singlet driving it.
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Old 15-06-2013, 12:32 PM   #17
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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I was told labour accounts for 18%, so someone has their figures wrong. R&D and tooling costs make up half the cost of a car if worked out over the lifetime of a vehicle.

It is a tricky one to work out as it costs the same in labour to build a Territory Titanium as it does a commercial one tonner.
I think this is the case across many industries where the blame for plant closures is lumped on "high labour costs". Sure it is a factor, but not to the extent claimed.
The government red tape and taxes would add a decent amount of cost because countries like Thailand where it is much cheaper to make cars wouldn't have the systems in place there we have (for better and worse) and their infrastructure wouldn't be as good. Apart from the company tax rate and GST, there's a number of other taxes businesses have to pay in Australia.

Even if Holden workers do take a pay cut, what guarantees do they get that they don't get shut down in a few years anyway? Would it apply all the way through to upper management? That's the only way they might get it through if the bosses set the example first.

I've seen this before (on a smaller scale) where a few people were asked to give up entitlements so redundancies didn't have to happen. A month later 5 of about 30 were canned. So they could accept a hit to help the company and get screwed over anyway.
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Old 15-06-2013, 04:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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Originally Posted by Gobes32 View Post
I was told labour accounts for 18%, so someone has their figures wrong. R&D and tooling costs make up half the cost of a car if worked out over the lifetime of a vehicle.

It is a tricky one to work out as it costs the same in labour to build a Territory Titanium as it does a commercial one tonner.
I suspect Ford would be running at much higher than 18% for labour costs. They stated 1250 jobs were going at Ford when production ceases. Using the $50 per hour rate for those workers mean 1250 (people) x $50 (per hour) x 38 (hours per week) = $2,375,000 per week. Which is going to equate to about $10 million per month. I think someone said Ford manufactures around $90 million (pre all taxes / charges etc) in cars a month at Broadmeadows, and if you accept 30% of the car (parts) is made off shore, then Australian input into Fords Vehicles manufacturing is about $90 million - 30% = $63 million.

If Ford labour is accounting for $10 million of the $63 million in production, and australian suppliers employed 3 workers for every Ford worker (and we do hear stories of how one car assembly job = 7 jobs in the supplier base), then your looking at approx $40 million dollars (ford $10 million, supplier base $30 million) in labour costs to make 60 to 70 million dollars in production. Well north of 50%.

There are car plants in the world that pump out 400,000 plus cars a year (13 times more than Fords Ozs production), with 3000 - 4000 workers (2.5 - 3.5 times Ford Ozs workforce). Thats where you get your labour costs down to around 15%.
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Old 15-06-2013, 05:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

Even at $50/hour cost x 1250 workers x 8 hours, that equals $500,000 per day.
spread across 148 vehicles a day that's $3,378 per vehicle.

Generally, supplier prices include labour to make parts but as w know, a lot of those parts
now come from outside Australia through Ford Asia pacific supplier network and suppliers
still here in Australia are told to match foreign prices of lose contracts. So the cost of local
parts is mostly on par with what can be sourced overseas, probably why locals are slowly going broke..

Last edited by jpd80; 15-06-2013 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 15-06-2013, 10:42 AM   #20
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

Ford production worker is $26 an hour, by the time long service leave, sick leave, and workcover premiums etc are added on, maybe it is $50 an hour?
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A G8E would be good if Ford marketed squarely at Calais V8 owners. They need to bring back the walking fingers like in the initial FG ads, but this time have the fingers crushing Calais' as they walk along, with some relaxing background Led Zeppelin music and Marcos Ambrose in stubbies and singlet driving it.
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Old 15-06-2013, 05:41 PM   #21
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Old 15-06-2013, 12:09 PM   #22
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

So, rather than cut what goes directly into the pocket of the worker, why can't they lobby to reduce some of the business expenses / red tape instead?

Paying $20-25 per hr for the pleasure of having a worker employed in top of their take home pay is what's really killing the business.

Wonder how many would choose the option of reduced benefits like sick pay / holiday pay / smoko break / tea break / clothing allowances etc over a pay cut???????

Simplistic approach???
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Old 15-06-2013, 12:56 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by pottery beige View Post
you may be missing the bit its not what you get but what you cost per hr..

I think you'll find that other western countries like Europe/USA ect are more than $50 an hour.

They companies and governments can spin all the rubbish like wages/aussie dollar/carbon tax ect but it all comes down to the import tariff and import tariff only.

Thailand - 80%
Germany - 10 to 25%
Korea - 8%

The blood is on John Button's hands, the funny part is I've been a tradie for 7 years now and I have never voted labour.

Well sorry for derailing this thread back on topic :-)
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Old 15-06-2013, 02:04 PM   #24
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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I think you'll find that other western countries like Europe/USA ect are more than $50 an hour.

They companies and governments can spin all the rubbish like wages/aussie dollar/carbon tax ect but it all comes down to the import tariff and import tariff only.

Thailand - 80%
Germany - 10 to 25%
Korea - 8%

The blood is on John Button's hands, the funny part is I've been a tradie for 7 years now and I have never voted labour.

Well sorry for derailing this thread back on topic :-)
There is no doubt the cheap imports and govco policy have been a huge player in the demise of the Australian manufacturing industry, and what was the figure given for the extra cost per car for the carbon tax...... $168.00 ?? add to that the huge increase in energy costs over the last few years, the country is stuffed.
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Old 15-06-2013, 02:28 PM   #25
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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Originally Posted by Cheese3 View Post
I think you'll find that other western countries like Europe/USA ect are more than $50 an hour.

They companies and governments can spin all the rubbish like wages/aussie dollar/carbon tax ect but it all comes down to the import tariff and import tariff only.

Thailand - 80%
Germany - 10 to 25%
Korea - 8%

The blood is on John Button's hands, the funny part is I've been a tradie for 7 years now and I have never voted labour.

Well sorry for derailing this thread back on topic :-)
No doubt Button started the trend. But tell me this (keep in mind i dont bat for either party), what has either the Labour or Liberal govts done since the induction of the Button plan to arrest the issue? Sweet FA.
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Old 15-06-2013, 02:32 PM   #26
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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No doubt Button started the trend. But tell me this (keep in mind i dont bat for either party), what has either the Labour or Liberal govts done since the induction of the Button plan to arrest the issue? Sweet FA.
they dont have to do anything mate . it's up to companies to stop looking after the share holders who leach money off the system . money for nothing sends everyone broke except the people funding the money for nothing .
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Old 15-06-2013, 02:50 PM   #27
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they dont have to do anything mate . it's up to companies to stop looking after the share holders who leach money off the system . money for nothing sends everyone broke except the people funding the money for nothing .
Sorry Chief, but what are you on about?
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Old 15-06-2013, 02:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

The Buton Plan was always about bringing in cheaper cars for people to buy,
thirty years on, i think that selfish attitude has cost us our auto industry.

Level playing field my A**.
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Old 16-06-2013, 04:54 PM   #29
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

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No doubt Button started the trend. But tell me this (keep in mind i dont bat for either party), what has either the Labour or Liberal govts done since the induction of the Button plan to arrest the issue? Sweet FA.
Couple of Billion borrowed dollars...

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As it's about Holden playing handball with the government and workers
Asking for a Billion more?
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Old 16-06-2013, 06:47 PM   #30
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Default Re: Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

It was in the news today that Holden won't make there redundancy target. Could be more than a pat cut comming.
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