Driver Fatigue - Road Trips

[Rodge]

I suspect driver fatigue is a factor in more accidents than are reflected in official stat's. Here's an interesting program from the N.Z. Police and some stat's on this. Its good to see them spending some of their millions of dollars of speed camera fines on something that's directly related to driver safety
http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/driv...eekend-5143113

It got me thinking...something I've been pondering for a little while to be honest because I'm planning a road trip with my daughter and grand-daughter from Auckland down to Palmerston North and back, total distance approx 1,100km's.

Suppose your planning a road trip with your family and don't want driver fatigue to be a factor or for the family to be too bored with spending too much time on the road and want to allow plenty of time for sight-seeing, relaxing and general rejunvination.

What's a comfortable distance per day, 300 km's, 400, 500 or some other number ?

[MAGPIE]

Rodge I have found out through some reasonably frequent road trips over the last 6 years that the following is a good guide...

North Is = Average speed 80-85 km/h
South is = Average speed 85-90 km/h

This applies during daylight hours, night driving and you can add about 5 km/h to the higher of those figures.

And a radar detector is a good idea to keep the average up

So for North Is driving I would say 320km would be a good target for comfort.
Having said that Akl to Palmy is easily doable, I've done Akl/Tim straight through a number of times, 12.5 hrs driving plus 3 on the ferry, now that is a mission.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Rodge I have found out through some reasonably frequent road trips over the last 6 years that the following is a good guide...

North Is = Average speed 80-85 km/h
South is = Average speed 85-90 km/h

This applies during daylight hours, night driving and you can add about 5 km/h to the higher of those figures.

And a radar detector is a good idea to keep the average up

So for North Is driving I would say 320km would be a good target for comfort.
Having said that Akl to Palmy is easily doable, I've done Akl/Tim straight through a number of times, 12.5 hrs driving plus 3 on the ferry, now that is a mission.

Thanks to everyone for their feedback and yeah Magpie I'd say those average speed figures look spot on to me. My daughter is 20 and my grand-daughter is 2 so i've got to take their needs and comfort into consideration as well and the little one gets bored and scratchy pretty quickly. I think I'll just stop at Taupo for the night each way, (about 280 km's driving each day) and take it really easy. We used to holiday a lot at Lake Taupo when the family was younger and there's lots to do there and it'll be a good chance to revisit the area. My wife isn't coming so it'll just be me doing the driving and there's no hurry, besides it will be a really good chance to do a bit of long overdue bonding with my daughter.

[svo supporter]

Personally when I do a lengthy trip, I use an older cars, which means I get about 400K out of a tank (give or take a few)....I top up when it gets to about half a tank, which is my excuse to get out for a stretch and the possible bite to eat...(so that's every 2 to 3 hours)...I can drive upto 800K a day doing this. (My big trips are 3,000K one way)

If you want to keep the family "fresh", plan some site seeing, where you can sit down with them and have a "picnic".....This gives you the break you need and also the possibility of walking round an interesting town, which thens gives the family something to talk about when the trip resumes. (Good boredom breaker)

I have a teenager, so he has his game machines to keep himself occupied....He also has an in car DVD player to keep himself occupied...So those items might be worth investing in, prior to the trip.

I won't put a mileage figure on distance...Just put the sight seeing stops firmly in place to keep yourself and family fresh....

Hope this helps

[Jim Goose]

Usually 6 or 7 hrs driving is the most i can handle in a day... have only done a few trips to Brisbane and back so rocky is the stop over point.

But if the wife/ partner is there?, maybe best to swap every few hrs.. at least it makes a change from constant driving

[MAGPIE]

Also Rodge a stop in Taupo would be about halfway between AKL/PN, and is a great place to stop. If it's summer take a dip in the lake, nothing better for getting rid of fatigue.

[2011G6E]

Too many people think they are an hero and can drive for 14 hours a day. They can't...they're human. Then combine this with people who never venture outside the big cities apart from a couple of trips a year and this breeds disaster.

I think they should hammer fatigue hard with car drivers the same way they do with us train drivers. I would rather be approaching an oncoming car on the highway with a wide awake driver doing 15kph over the limit than a half asleep fatigued driver doing 10kph under.
When we had the Landcruiser we were coming back from Rocky and a Commodore coming the other way suddenly lurched to one side, flicked the back out, and spun across the highway in front of us to disappear down into a roadside ditch. We slammed on the brakes and hit the hazard lights, and everyone else stopped behind us. The guy was out of the car which had amazingly not rolled, and was wandering around dazed talking on his phone. He said he was OK, and was yelling at someone about picking him up...and bringing a trailer. He'd obviously fallen asleep.

The trick (which I have said before) about being "tired" and being "fatigued" is that you will know when you are "tired", but you won't know when you're "fatigued" which is much more dangerous. This is when they tell us out here that it's important for each of the two drivers in the cab to keep an eye on each other during the shift for warning signs of fatigue because the other guy usually won't notice what's going on. Same with a car trip.

Leave early, and stop for breakfast. Then drive for a while and stop for lunch. Have an afternoon break somewhere as well. This breaks up the day into a few two or three hour runs.

Good point about fuel range...our Falcon can probably do well over 600km out of a tank minimum, but we still stop every couple of hours for a stretch and a walk around.

[JC]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Too many people think they are an hero and can drive for 14 hours a day. They can't...they're human. Then combine this with people who never venture outside the big cities apart from a couple of trips a year and this breeds disaster.

I think they should hammer fatigue hard with car drivers the same way they do with us train drivers. I would rather be approaching an oncoming car on the highway with a wide awake driver doing 15kph over the limit than a half asleep fatigued driver doing 10kph under.
When we had the Landcruiser we were coming back from Rocky and a Commodore coming the other way suddenly lurched to one side, flicked the back out, and spun across the highway in front of us to disappear down into a roadside ditch. We slammed on the brakes and hit the hazard lights, and everyone else stopped behind us. The guy was out of the car which had amazingly not rolled, and was wandering around dazed talking on his phone. He said he was OK, and was yelling at someone about picking him up...and bringing a trailer. He'd obviously fallen asleep.

The trick (which I have said before) about being "tired" and being "fatigued" is that you will know when you are "tired", but you won't know when you're "fatigued" which is much more dangerous. This is when they tell us out here that it's important for each of the two drivers in the cab to keep an eye on each other during the shift for warning signs of fatigue because the other guy usually won't notice what's going on. Same with a car trip.

Leave early, and stop for breakfast. Then drive for a while and stop for lunch. Have an afternoon break somewhere as well. This breaks up the day into a few two or three hour runs.

Good point about fuel range...our Falcon can probably do well over 600km out of a tank minimum, but we still stop every couple of hours for a stretch and a walk around.

2 weeks ago we did the return trip from Toowoomba to Canberra via Tamworth, Maitland etc. We had a very clear run - I probably only overtook 20 cars between Toowoomba and Maitland, but heaps from there to Canberra. The trip took us 15:45 including a long stop (1 hr) in Maitland - and I drove the whole way. The last 150km were tough (night time, and rest of the car asleep) but I stopped when I need a freshen up and a stretch - so that was twice between Maitland and Canberra to make sure I was OK (dunny, water on face and coffee). I was always prepared to pull over for the night though, and the missus would also have taken a stint, but to be honest, she isn't a long distance traveller so is half asleep most of the time.

Long story short, I did it, but would never go that way again - our usual route through Dubbo/Cowra is 14 hours max, and while long, it is quite an easy trip with stops every 2 hours. I am getting to the age where anything over 10 hours is pretty taxing though.

I have driven some roads in NZ in a campervan, and we planned to drive each day for 4 hours plus/minus an hour or so becasue we were sight seeing at the same time. The going can be slow over the mountains, but generally we were able to travel at 100 or thereabouts (NZ drivers we found to be very slow compared to Aussie drivers/roads). The longest drive we did was 6 hours around Queenstown somewhere, and that was maybe 300km from memory??

[gtxb67]

i just did 2 solo 10 hour trips from melbourne to just out of sydney (jambaroo) in 3 days and didn't have a problem
but then i normally have to make a toilet break every 30 minutes, so that and petrol stops just because i can, helps to break it up a little

it depends on the individual and what the individual wants to do. when we used to go to bathurst, the best way was when we had 4 people and they all did 2 hour stints, but if there is only 1 driver, then that is not possible

like with most things. the personal responsible for driving, needs to be responsible for it and take the necessary breaks before it is too late

[Falcman0o7]

Fell asleep once 12 years ago hitting the gutter woke me up! NEVER done it since! It's sooo easy to do and you don't even know you're about to nod off.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Falcman0o7

Fell asleep once 12 years ago hitting the gutter woke me up! NEVER done it since! It's sooo easy to do and you don't even know you're about to nod off.

i have fallen asleep once - back when around 19-20 at 9 pm on a friday night. we were doing the standard frankston-dandenong cruise and the "wake you up relfectors" on the road broke me from my slumber

the weird thing was that i then drove until 2 am without another problem


to me it isn't how tired you are, it is letting yourself get into the comfort zone. like when everyone falls asleep on their couch watching tv, but once they are in bed they are suddenly wide awake
i am in no way, shape or form suggesting that fatigue (and losing concentration for a brief moment) isn't a bigger problem than actually falling asleep, but to me it was interesting that i fell asleep when i believed i was totally in control and in other instances when i knew just how tired i was, i stayed awake. i guess if tired or potentially fatigued, you don't have the windows up, the heater on and the radio down






overall, i think the amount of hours driven (depending on the driver and how they feel on the day), is less important than regular enough breaks while doing that driving. having said that, i believed my 10 hour drive to jambaroo recently was only going to be 8 hours to wagga when i planned my days off, so i had i known that before i left, i might have planned slightly differently

[poppa smurf]

we travel fair distances over relatively short time frames......we look at roughly between 600 - 800 kim's per day allowing for wee, fuel and cuppa stops...

works out to take a break around 3 hours of travel.......pull the van under some trees and let the world go by for half an hour

600 is comfortable......800 is a long day....... we have travelled further but the rest stops are extremely important

[DJM83]

Ive done about 8 trips from Brisbane-Albury which about 1400kms along the coast, 3 times ive done that in one go.
Im not a super human but i have never felt the need to fall asleep/drift off etc. Now i dont make a habit of doing it on one go but one of the times my dad was unwell and wanted to get home. Other 2 ive left and just decided as i went along if i wanted to stop (Booked a hotel in advance) and just cancelled if i didnt want to stop.

[CAT600]

Everyone is different, and sometimes you can do more than others.

I drove W.A. border to Melbourne in one stint (2000kms) with a few hour stop in Adelaide catching up with an AFF member.... no issue

I've also driven 8 hours and been buggered.... booked a hotel in Murray Bridge and slept like a log, I knew I wouldnt make Adelaide and planned a earlier stop.

Every situation is different.

Daniel

[Road_Warrior]

Every 3 or so hours. Although now with a little one the days of doing 10+ hour drives in one day are long gone.

[robbyj]

Iv felt fatigued from an hour long trip before, almost falling asleep. Just plan as you go

(no point trying to drive a further 2 hours because that's what you had planned, but your already feeling tired)

A good breakfast and healthy amount of sleep will ensure your as fresh as possible.

[flappist]

Fatigue is not just time and distance.

I have driven in stop start city traffic for a couple of hours and felt tired and also driven 1300km in 7 hours and felt great (NT obviously).

My theory is that all humans have a "natural rhythm" in everything they do. This is always the most efficient way and varies constantly for a thousand different reasons one of which is what you are accustomed to.

In a small place like NZ 300km is a long way whereas to me that is an ordinary early morning trip out to a job with return in the afternoon.

Fatigue is brought on earlier by not driving at your rhythm regardless of whether that be faster or slower. This is why you get wound up in traffic and also why you get so bored doing 100km/h in the middle of nowhere when you see 2 other cars in an hour.

There is no hard and fast rule for all occasions and a competent driver should be allowed to judge when they are tired.
One of the problems with the fanatical "speed" dogma is that a 1000km trip at 100km/h takes 10 hours whereas at 125km/h only takes 8 which will allow for two 1 hour breaks to cover the same distance in the same time.

Now I am sure there are members on here who are aghast at the idea of 1000km trips not being split up over several days with overnight accommodation but should they one day leave the city areas they might find that Australia is a VERY big country and taking 2 to 3 days to drive only halfway across one of the middle sized states is just not viable.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by flappist

In a small place like NZ 300km is a long way whereas to me that is an ordinary early morning trip out to a job with return in the afternoon.

300km isn't a long way in NZ, it just feels a long way. That is simply down to the geography of the country and the type and quality of the roading.

This is why there is the difference in the average speeds I have shown above in the two islands.

For example my regular trip away to my holiday spot is 360km, 60km of that is a narrow, winding and hilly gorge with dangerous rockfalls and slips. There is another 30km of Targa type country also. So nearly a third of this trip is over extremely challenging terrain (challenging as in maintaining a decent average speed).

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by flappist

One of the problems with the fanatical "speed" dogma is that a 1000km trip at 100km/h takes 10 hours whereas at 125km/h only takes 8 which will allow for two 1 hour breaks to cover the same distance in the same time.

Thanks for restating that once again. I don't know how many times it has to be said to have any effect. I've been putting it to good effect in Europe (where distances are pretty much as great as Australia contrary to popular myth) while the law allows me.

Even the Skoda doing over 1,000 km on a tank doesn't tempt me to skip rest breaks, it just means you don't waste time and money at the bowser and have more time and a nicer choice of places to stop instead of a smelly servo!

[prydey]

glad i don't travel with some of the people on here. would take forever to get anywhere 3-400km in a day?? sheesh, thats a week to get to brissie from adelaide!! i'll stick to my 1.5 days thanks, wife and kids on board and everything. what a menace to society i am!!

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by prydey

glad i don't travel with some of the people on here. would take forever to get anywhere 3-400km in a day?? sheesh, thats a week to get to brissie from adelaide!! i'll stick to my 1.5 days thanks, wife and kids on board and everything. what a menace to society i am!!

I hope you never experience the affects of fatigue and its consequences, I have seen the consequences of it in my own family and it destroys some people lives..... something for all to think about.

[Itsme]

Depends on on how much time you have and what you want to see on the way, I have driven around Australia and find traveling about 400K's a day maximum is good as there is no real fatigue involved....the kids do not get bored and you get to take the sights of the days destination.

Why be in a hurry?

PS: In the past I have driven long distance, fatigue and missing out on sights prove to be a waste & dangerous.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by trublu

Depends on on how much time you have and what you want to see on the way, I have driven around Australia and find traveling about 400K's a day maximum is good as there is no real fatigue involved....the kids do not get bored and you get to take the sights of the days destination.

Why be in a hurry?

PS: In the past I have driven long distance, fatigue and missing out on sights prove to be a waste & dangerous.

When the reason for the travel is recreation then that may be the case.
Unfortunately a large percentage of car travel outside the cities is not.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by flappist

When the reason for the travel is recreation then that may be the case.
Unfortunately a large percentage of car travel outside the cities is not.

Agreed, in the middle of NSW at 1.30am there isnt much to see.... or even 1.30pm for that matter.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by flappist

When the reason for the travel is recreation then that may be the case.
Unfortunately a large percentage of car travel outside the cities is not.

Irrelevant comment to this topic since Rodge was talking about taking Daughter & Granddaughter on a trip concerning fatigue & safety.

We all know people can travel further distance for varying reasons.

[2011G6E]

Hah...coffee doesn't work. Caffeine-filled drinks don't work either.

They don't wake you up...it's like the old joke about don't give coffee to someone who's drunk to try and sober them up...you'll just end up with a wide-awake drunk.
What they do is mask the symptoms of fatigue...you will be even less aware of them than you would otherwise, and you'll miss the cues like a wandering mind, eyes closing for increasingly lengthening periods of time, suddenly finding you can't actually remember much about the last ten kilometers of driving, etc.
You'll think you're all awake and perky, but that's just the caffeine playing a trick on your brain chemistry.

The number of truck drivers in B-doubles and triples I've seen here stopping off in town to wander, yawning, over to the shop to buy four or six large cans of Mothers or something similar frightens me...

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Hah...coffee doesn't work. Caffeine-filled drinks don't work either.

I take it that they don't work on you, everybody is different. What keeps some people alert does nothing for others.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by trublu

Depends on on how much time you have and what you want to see on the way, I have driven around Australia and find traveling about 400K's a day maximum is good as there is no real fatigue involved....the kids do not get bored and you get to take the sights of the days destination.

Why be in a hurry?

PS: In the past I have driven long distance, fatigue and missing out on sights prove to be a waste & dangerous.

I'd echo that. When I was in my twenties I was in a relationship with a lady in Palmerston North and after a long week at work I used to leave Auckland and drive to Palmy on Friday night, about 530 km's with no diversions There were times that it was a real battle to stay alert and in hindsight some of these trips may have been a little ill-considered.

Its one thing to drive long distance, quite another to do it at night after you've been working all week really hard...that's where the danger comes in, in my opinion.

These days I think I'd rather just take my time and enjoy the experience and spending time with my family and doing stuff along the way. Breaking the trip up each way gives us time to relax and make it a happy family experience.
Why be in a hurry if you don't have to be ?

Having said that I certainly acknowledge Australia is a vast country and there are times when you have to get from A to B and I am sure there are many that at times do 1,000 km's in a day when they have too.

Not something you'd chose to do "day in day out" though is it ?...what I'm getting at is if you had your family along and you were on holiday that's not something you'd do every day to keep them all happy is it !!

[falconnut]

i get 1000km a tank or more if i stretch it.

Usually 400-600km a day is my max

[Rodge]

I've done Akl/Tim straight through a number of times, 12.5 hrs driving plus 3 on the ferry, now that is a mission.
__________________

In 35 years of driving I can't top that mate, what's your secret, super strong coffee ???