How to kill and get away with it...

MAD · 19-03-2010, 04:51 PM

We've long known that for some reason if you're drunk in a car and kill someone, the likelihood of any serious jail time is very slim... Well here's a new way to avoid the iron bars.... http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/nat...-1225842931986

When is our justice system going to actually get hard on offenders?

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 05:11 PM

Nice when you can get off with murder by saying "oops, I am sorry"

:

GS608 · 19-03-2010, 05:22 PM

and another escaping conviction..

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/granny...-1225833004110

CFOUR · 19-03-2010, 05:28 PM

How to kill and get away with it?
answer. kill yourself

JACK250 · 19-03-2010, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD

When is our justice system going to actually get hard on offenders?

Not so long ago I would have agreed with you, but having started legal studies my opinion on punishment has changed altogether. I don't see how a lengthy jail sentence would help much, this guy has made a terrible mistake, but he in no way had intent to hurt anyone. While it is a huge mistake to make, I don't see what good locking him up would do, all that happens is that he gets raped, bashed, and comes out either scarred or hardened, for what good? So that the community feels good when they read the headline?

I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I suggest this guy should be let off without consequence, but I think people are far too quick to jump on the gaol bandwagon, which I disagree with, especially with the state of the whole prison system of today.

luke1984 · 19-03-2010, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JACK250

Not so long ago I would have agreed with you, but having started legal studies my opinion on punishment has changed altogether. I don't see how a lengthy jail sentence would help much, this guy has made a terrible mistake, but he in no way had intent to hurt anyone. While it is a huge mistake to make, I don't see what good locking him up would do, all that happens is that he gets raped, bashed, and comes out either scarred or hardened, for what good? So that the community feels good when they read the headline?

I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I suggest this guy should be let off without consequence, but I think people are far too quick to jump on the gaol bandwagon, which I disagree with, especially with the state of the whole prison system of today.

Maybe deter others from doing the same?

sly_ba · 20-03-2010, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luke1984

Maybe deter others from doing the same?

Be very careful, deterrence as a empirical theory for the basis of sanctions is based on shaky foundations. The aims or objectives of punishment have been historically explained to consist of notions including retribution and deterrence. By deterrence in this respect I am referring to a desired effect where the threat of punishment ‘causes individuals who would have committed the threatened behavior, or the public in general, to refrain from doing so’.

Accordingly, deterrence theory assumes that prospective offenders respond to incentives as they choose to allocate their time and energy between legitimate and illegitimate activities . The criminal justice system assumes that such deterrent goals are only achieved when sentencing leaves the general community with an unpleasant experience which he or she does not wish to repeat.

However, the assumptions behind deterrence theory, that individuals are calculating rational human beings, may be true for some people, but certainly not for all. The sad truth remains that people who are aware of what they should be doing will sometimes engage in conduct that they know they should not regardless of the potential consequences. In other words, crime is seldom rational. It may be claimed that the prospect of being caught and going to gaol will have at least some deterrent effect on individuals, however, the likelihood of detection, conviction and imprisonment is very low for many offences. A clear weakness inherent in this theory remains that it rests on crude generalizations about human nature and the motivations behind the committing of criminal activities.

I guess that's enough ranting from me...... certain aspects of criminal law get me a bit agro.

**Burnout** · 19-03-2010, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JACK250

especially with the state of the whole prison system of today.

And what pray tell is the state of the prison system of today?

**GasoLane** · 19-03-2010, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnout

And what pray tell is the state of the prison system of today?

N.S.W...QLD...SA...NT...WA...TAS...ACT

**Burnout** · 19-03-2010, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasOLane

N.S.W...QLD...SA...NT...WA...TAS...ACT

Cheeky!

Adamz Ghia · 19-03-2010, 08:53 PM

I used to be all for longer gaol terms, but these days I think for things that are tragic accidents, community service is a good idea. The whole point if the justice system is to repay society for your wrongs. Gaol doesn't do this, it costs the tax payer more.

That's what this was, an accident, and to rob a family of their wife and mother will serve nothing. She will live with this for the rest of her life. Just let it go and let them get on with their lives.

JACK250 · 19-03-2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnout

And what pray tell is the state of the prison system of today?

Same as what it's always been. School for criminals, who get angry, more street smart, and generally lose respect for the system. Like I said but I don't hold all the answers, but prison doesn't rehabilitate like a lot of people like to think.

And yes deterrence is a factor, but I don't know if it's a big enough one to sentence someone to time in gaol. A lot of people would have a different opinion of gaol if they'd been in there or seen the conditions of most of them (not claiming I have, but have seen a few docos at school).

**Burnout** · 19-03-2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JACK250

Same as what it's always been. School for criminals, who get angry, more street smart, and generally lose respect for the system. Like I said but I don't hold all the answers, but prison doesn't rehabilitate like a lot of people like to think.

And yes deterrence is a factor, but I don't know if it's a big enough one to sentence someone to time in gaol. A lot of people would have a different opinion of gaol if they'd been in there or seen the conditions of most of them (not claiming I have, but have seen a few docos at school).

With respect to your opinion, that is a very simplified approach to prisons, which are so much more than this. To say prisons don't rehabilitate, is not correct, there are some who are rehabilitated by the system. Just as there are some who are those so selfish and anti-social, that no prison could rehabilitate them. You could say that being in goal is the best place for the anti-social people as, while they are there they are not offending while inside. This is equally simplified as the anti-social are offending inside as a way of life. Modern corrections cannot prevent it.

Deterrence is a factor, one would hope in all sentencing.

We all tend to judge the guilty depending upon our own values, our environmental upbringing or at times our political leanings. Further we are sometimes swayed in our judgment of offenders by those who present the offenses and the offender in the media.

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JACK250

And yes deterrence is a factor, but I don't know if it's a big enough one to sentence someone to time in gaol. A lot of people would have a different opinion of gaol if they'd been in there or seen the conditions of most of them (not claiming I have, but have seen a few docos at school).

You obviously have not been to some of the prisons. I have seen inside the ones here when we pick up prisoners and talked to lots of corrections officers whilst transporting those prisoners, the information I have gained is the standards are quite good. Would I want to be there, no way, I value my freedom but they are not neglected.

Franco Cozzo · 19-03-2010, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

You obviously have not been to some of the prisons. I have seen inside the ones here when we pick up prisoners and talked to lots of corrections officers whilst transporting those prisoners, the information I have gained is the standards are quite good. Would I want to be there, no way, I value my freedom but they are not neglected.

Yeah, unless its port phillip bay prison. Privately owned prison with horrible conditions for all involved.

naddis01 · 19-03-2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD

We've long known that for some reason if you're drunk in a car and kill someone, the likelihood of any serious jail time is very slim... Well here's a new way to avoid the iron bars.... http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/nat...-1225842931986

When is our justice system going to actually get hard on offenders?

From personal experience with a losing a family member all you have to say is your sick!

Scott · 19-03-2010, 06:50 PM

I don't think jail would be suitable for that incident, I think that removing her licence for the three years was a good start. Add her own grief, a sincere apology to the family and 2 years worth of community service and I think the lesson would be learned.

I'm sure those who have lost people in such cases will disagree but my emotionless opinion is that jail is not the answer for making a mistake such as this.

Thornie · 19-03-2010, 06:53 PM

I think i'll just sit on what i have to say.

Franco Cozzo · 19-03-2010, 06:58 PM

2008, a bloody P plater killed my great grandma's partner 10 meters from their house. hit him at 60km/h while he was crossing the road, she got let off without any charges. He didn't die straight away either, he convulced on the floor for 20 or so seconds then died. He'd just got out of hospital and was starting to recover really well too.

Dad had to identify his mangled body. If i was there I would have wanted blood.

uranium_death · 19-03-2010, 07:13 PM

The legal system sucks. That is just the way it is.

If any of you are unhappy with the way things are, place some pressure on your state or federal MP. Venting displeasure is healthy, but it is unproductive. Write a carefully considered and well-written letter or email. I doubt much will happen, but if it's an issue you think is affecting the community, the pollies should at least have the courtesy to write back and deny everything and bury their heads in the sand.

T3man · 19-03-2010, 07:14 PM

I agree that the system has to be harder on offenders. Especially repeat offenders. However there are offenders and there are accidents. People make mistakes. And sure those mistakes can have dire consequences but sometimes the situation is just a simple tragedy and further punishment is not going to change history. All it will do is produce another victim.

Before anyone judges the person try putting yourself in their position.

Can you say you've never made a mistake in your life; or that you never will?

Have you ever lived with someone who suffers bipolar disorder? I'm not saying it excuses her, but it goes a long way to explaining why the judge decided against a custodial sentence.

Franco Cozzo · 19-03-2010, 09:04 PM

http://sunbury-leader.whereilive.com...in-goonawarra/

Except, he didn't live alone, and the police did nothing to track down his only surviving relitive, his sister which we had to do, police did jack crap, except get the coroner over and block off the intersection. He was 84, but he wasn't a moron, I seriously doubt he stepped in front of a car. Known hoon hotspot where he died.

Thats my family's experience with one of us being killed and the ************ who did it got away scott free. I wouldn't want jail, having blood on your hands is pretty horrible but a lengthy community service term, helping looking after my 94 year old great grandma who the driver has severely affected and cancelled drivers license would be in order.

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 09:12 PM

Without knowing the full story and taking the information on face value, I need to disagree here. It seem that the driver "missed" the red light, meaning she was not paying attention. Therefore she was driving without taking due care and attention that is required of her by law, she was negligent, she should be held to answer for it.

Now this leaning on her Bi Polar, how is that relevant, was she in a state that she was not fit to drive? If so, why was she driving against warnings, she still retains responsibility here.

Custodial sentences are not just about teaching the person a lesson, they are also about sending a message out to other people that may end up in that situation. I believe many road users need to see that if you look down to change that CD, miss the red light and kill someone, you will get jail time. At least it might make some think twice about changing that CD at 80 km/h.

**Burnout** · 19-03-2010, 09:19 PM

And Bi-Polar, "zonked out on the meds as she is on a full downer at the moment."

Shouldn't be driving, shouldn't have a license being Bi-Polar.

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnout

And Bi-Polar, "zonked out on the meds as she is on a full downer at the moment."

Shouldn't be driving, shouldn't have a license being Bi-Polar.

Bi polar does not preclude someone from a license, I hope you did not take that from my comments. It just depends on the response to treatment and what meds they are on.

The feeling I got from the article is that she used her Bi polar to get out of a custodial sentence, that I disagree with.

**Burnout** · 19-03-2010, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Bi polar does not preclude someone from a license, I hope you did not take that from my comments. It just depends on the response to treatment and what meds they are on.

The feeling I got from the article is that she used her Bi polar to get out of a custodial sentence, that I disagree with.

I would agree with you, however you & I have both observed those with the same condition who should not be in charge of a motor vehicle.

The sentencing authority in this case seemingly made no mention of it or made reference to a clinical state of the disorder at the time.
All of which I find interesting.........

It could be that the 'scribbler' who wrote the 'piece' didn't bother to add any of that in their prose.

Scott · 19-03-2010, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

she was negligent, she should be held to answer for it.

Like being banned for 3 years and having to live with it for the rest of her life? I cannot imagine trying to sleep without having that moment flash before your eyes - how long does being responsible for killing someone hang around? A lot longer than a few months in jail I would bet.

I think about it as if me, a friend or family member was the one on trial - how would I like it if my morally upstanding, honest, caring, die-for-her-family mother had made this mistake?

I know she'd be destroyed over it and I would be there to help pick up the pieces. No-one means to make a mistake, humans are human and at some point it must be accepted that being human is reason enough not to be stuck in a cage to ruin your already shattered existence.

geckoGT · 19-03-2010, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP006

Like being banned for 3 years and having to live with it for the rest of her life? I cannot imagine trying to sleep without having that moment flash before your eyes - how long does being responsible for killing someone hang around? A lot longer than a few months in jail I would bet.

I think about it as if me, a friend or family member was the one on trial - how would I like it if my morally upstanding, honest, caring, die-for-her-family mother had made this mistake?

I know she'd be destroyed over it and I would be there to help pick up the pieces. No-one means to make a mistake, humans are human and at some point it must be accepted that being human is reason enough not to be stuck in a cage to ruin your already shattered existence.

I do see your point, but who says she really accepts what she has done and that her life is shattered. Many in her position do not see it as their fault, it was "just an accident".

I guess my view is different for two reasons. The first is I have a job where I am not allowed to make a mistake, why should others get that luxury? The second is you still have faith in humanity, my faith got crushed years ago as I have seen so many examples of humanity failing. Humanity is not a common as you think.

**Burnout** · 19-03-2010, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I do see your point, but who says she really accepts what she has done and that her life is shattered. Many in her position do not see it as their fault, it was "just an accident".

I guess my view is different for two reasons. The first is I have a job where I am not allowed to make a mistake, why should others get that luxury? The second is you still have faith in humanity, my faith got crushed years ago as I have seen so many examples of humanity failing. Humanity is not a common as you think.

I must agree with you here, I have interacted with many, many people both inside & outside who always blame the 'victim' for the issue/act/offense at hand.
"De-nile" is not always a river in Egypt.

"I wouldn't have knocked her off if she hadn't been in the park" was one I heard a few years ago.

mr smith · 19-03-2010, 09:33 PM

Getting real tired of this as an excuse for bad behaviour.........

Judge Montgomery took into account Waller's remorse, bipolar disorder, depression and thoughts of suicide after the crash. He found her mental state meant jail would weigh more heavily on her.