PHEVs or EVs - Anyone done the maths?

[Crazy Dazz]

This isn't an enthusiasts thread. And I don't really care about what is "the future" or anything else. Nor am I interested in people justifying their choices.

It's purely about running costs.

Our daily is an Equinox. It's a mid-sized SUV, powered by a small frugal TD. Being a yank, it was well equip for it's time, and it's been very reliable.
It averages around 7L/100km.
It probably does around 350~400km per week, mostly driven by my daughter, generally gets around 700~740km per (max 48L) tank, and costs $75~90 per fortnight.

It's about to clock over 200kk, so we're starting to contemplate possible replacements.

So just wondering if anyone has crunched the numbers on what a PHEV or EV costs to run? And compared that to the higher cost of ownership?
(A PHEV that could do say 100km on battery, would probably run almost exclusively on charge.)

[jaydee]

My Mrs has a SP25 Mazda, 2017 only 35 k on the clock. She's getting 7 litres per hundred or less.
Looked at getting a hybrid, liked the Toyota Corolla Cross.
Compared prices of a new Mazda 3 petrol, Toyota quite a lot more to buy and gets about 5litres per hundred.
Can't justify the extra cost of a hybrid compared to an ICE Mazda.
Plus resale value in 5 to 8 years, I think Mazda will be better than a car whose battery is getting close to expiry.

[cs123]

Just replaced a CX5 with a BYD Sealion 6 PHEV dual motor. Got it on a novated lease before the FTB exemption ended. Projected costs for the BYD were around 60% of a replacement CX5.

I didn't do it to be an eco warior.
- performance and features for the BYD were much better than the CX5/CX60
- The 18KWH battery can charge overnight with a 10A GPO from 25% (min charge) to 100%
- It can cover the daily commute of around 50-60KM on pure battery. The SL6 can do around 80km on battery before the motor is required.

PHEVs require some ICE time to keep the engine in running order.
When running as a straight HEV, that car does around 7-8 l /100 so not better than an ICE car, but the idea is to get savings during your daily commute.

I'm impressed by the BYD. Good build quality, lots of features. Good performance.

Only unknown is parts and service. So will see about that

[simon varley]

I think this is going to be a very personal subject. What works for one family may not for another. My belief is that the sums will be very sensitive to the planned drive, the charging method, whether you already have PV and battery etc etc.

As said above, the ICE part of a PHEV isn't going to have any different running costs to a conventional ICE car (maybe worse, if the weight is more), so the break point is going to come down to how much EV driving you are going to be able to do, and what you sue to charge it.

Good luck!

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by cs123

Just replaced a CX5 with a BYD Sealion 6 PHEV dual motor. Got it on a novated lease before the FTB exemption ended. Projected costs for the BYD were around 60% of a replacement CX5.

I didn't do it to be an eco warior.
- performance and features for the BYD were much better than the CX5/CX60
- The 18KWH battery can charge overnight with a 10A GPO from 25% (min charge) to 100%
- It can cover the daily commute of around 50-60KM on pure battery. The SL6 can do around 80km on battery before the motor is required.

PHEVs require some ICE time to keep the engine in running order.
When running as a straight HEV, that car does around 7-8 l /100 so not better than an ICE car, but the idea is to get savings during your daily commute.

I'm impressed by the BYD. Good build quality, lots of features. Good performance.

Only unknown is parts and service. So will see about that

But it's made in China.
I know, just about everything is, but for me I'll stick to Japanese as far as cars go.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by jaydee

But it's made in China.
I know, just about everything is, but for me I'll stick to Japanese as far as cars go.

Remember the 70s and Jap Crap Toyotas etc. Turns out they were OK.

I think we have hit the point where Chinese cars are the equal of other cars in the market. I would put them above US cars.

If you have a look at Munro Live, they pull one down to benchmark. They criticised the hell out of the BYD Shark as it was "over engineered".

I should add that forgetting the PHEV aspect, the BYD spanks the CX5 in just about every way. I would buy one just on it being a better car. More performance, more comfortable, more accessories.

Like I mentioned above. The only thing I don't know about is the dealer service experience.

[Rastas]

Originally Posted by cs123

Remember the 70s and Jap Crap Toyotas etc. Turns out they were OK.

I think we have hit the point where Chinese cars are the equal of other cars in the market. I would put them above US cars.

If you have a look at Munro Live, they pull one down to benchmark. They criticised the hell out of the BYD Shark as it was "over engineered".

I should add that forgetting the PHEV aspect, the BYD spanks the CX5 in just about every way. I would buy one just on it being a better car. More performance, more comfortable, more accessories.

Like I mentioned above. The only thing I don't know about is the dealer service experience.

You should be ok with BYD saying they will have up to 100 showrooms/service centers by the end of this year - more than double the current number.

[Hulsty]

Originally Posted by cs123

.

If you have a look at Munro Live, they pull one down to benchmark. They criticised the hell out of the BYD Shark as it was "over engineered".

The BYD shark may be "over engineered" but it certainly is not "over designed", we have one at work on the hoist, it is not a off road vehicle, the underbody design is not great, the exhaust system is begging to be ripped off on the first mount of dirt. At best it is suited to smooth dirt roads, I did also laugh at the hand painted on corrosion protection (including over painted areas) under the car, pretty poor seeing brush marks on the front of your new ride.

[simon varley]

to take an example with somewhat made up numbers.

a Ranger bi-turbo would have fuel costs of around $7 for a 50km drive.

a Ranger PHEV, if run 100% on battery, and you bought the charge at peak rate, would cost about $5 for the same 50km drive.

a Ranger PHEV, if run on 100% ICE would cost about $11 for the same drive.

that's quite a difference, but it's not real! Even if you really only drove that short a distance a day, you might find the ICE cuts in, so running 100% EV on a PHEV is pretty unreliable. IF you drive a longer distance, and deplete the battery, then the petrol engine costs more to run than the diesel.

I think the only way to truly know the costs, is to go and take a test drive. Drive your commute routes, with a number of different PHEV, and try and work out how much the engine runs, versus pure EV.

I'm not really convinced the runing costs are less than ICE, and I'm a fan

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by jaydee

But it's made in China.
I know, just about everything is, but for me I'll stick to Japanese as far as cars go.

Pretty common knowledge that the 3 Chinese warships (4 counting the nuclear sub) currently circumnavigating Australia are remotely doing the updates on BYD vehicles, as well as collecting everyone’s data, like how many trips to supermarkets and 2 dollar shops…

[Citroënbender]

A serious question; why is most of the discussion about electric and hybrid vehicles, focused solely upon purchase of new vehicles? I have no idea of statistics for “survivorship” of cars bought new, entering the secondhand market - but surely they don’t just evaporate?

One might have thought that an ex-lease or ex-rental vehicle may have been good (or bad!) buying, yet they’re not in discussion. Are they all going to the Uber/Didi/Uber carshare food chain?

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

A serious question; why is most of the discussion about electric and hybrid vehicles, focused solely upon purchase of new vehicles?

because the ICE crowd are scaremongering that battery packs don't last long and are expensive to replace.

[simon varley]

https://www.mynrma.com.au/open-road/...ace-ev-battery

[Citroënbender]

A lot of conjecture there, but at least someone had half a crack. Given that Ye Olde iPhone generally needs a new battery after about four years, you can see at least one device that’s conditioning peoples’ ideas.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

This isn't an enthusiasts thread. And I don't really care about what is "the future" or anything else. Nor am I interested in people justifying their choices.

It's purely about running costs.

Our daily is an Equinox. It's a mid-sized SUV, powered by a small frugal TD. Being a yank, it was well equip for it's time, and it's been very reliable.
It averages around 7L/100km.
It probably does around 350~400km per week, mostly driven by my daughter, generally gets around 700~740km per (max 48L) tank, and costs $75~90 per fortnight.

It's about to clock over 200kk, so we're starting to contemplate possible replacements.

So just wondering if anyone has crunched the numbers on what a PHEV or EV costs to run? And compared that to the higher cost of ownership?
(A PHEV that could do say 100km on battery, would probably run almost exclusively on charge.)

The wife is getting around 1.3l/100km in an Outlander PHEV, they advertise 84km of range real world is 70-75

They suit short running into town and back, the most economical way to run them is if you don't use them every day and charge them in between running with solar which is how we achieve those figures, long trips don't really suit them as they're not worth charging cost and time wise

100km range would be better as you suggested

[Swordie]

Have a read of the links below from WA RAC on Car running costs 2024.

https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info...g_costs_vanity


https://www-cdn.rac.com.au/-/media/f...DMxOC4yOS4wLjA.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

A serious question; why is most of the discussion about electric and hybrid vehicles, focused solely upon purchase of new vehicles? I have no idea of statistics for “survivorship” of cars bought new, entering the secondhand market - but surely they don’t just evaporate?

One might have thought that an ex-lease or ex-rental vehicle may have been good (or bad!) buying, yet they’re not in discussion. Are they all going to the Uber/Didi/Uber carshare food chain?

I watched on YT a car buyer/flipper in the UK bought a 2015 Range Rover hybrid. Paid 15k for it, spent a further 1500, sold for 20.
Because he was a dealer it had a warranty.
Came back 3 times for flat battery. Turned out a cell had dropped out in the hybrid battery pack and was therefore draining the car battery.
26k for a new battery pack, found a repairer who rebuilt, replaced all the cells for 6 grand.
In the end he lost money of course.
At the end of the day, if you're looking at buying a second hand car at let's say 7 years old, one is ICE, one is hybrid and one is fully electric, which will you buy with relative confidence will last 5 more years at least.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by PooDog

The wife is getting around 1.3l/100km in an Outlander PHEV, they advertise 84km of range real world is 70-75

They suit short running into town and back, the most economical way to run them is if you don't use them every day and charge them in between running with solar which is how we achieve those figures, long trips don't really suit them as they're not worth charging cost and time wise

100km range would be better as you suggested

Running out of time, but the goal would be to get a PHEV before the deadline.
But the pricing makes them unattractive, unless it was used for a lot of short trips on battery only.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Running out of time, but the goal would be to get a PHEV before the deadline.
But the pricing makes them unattractive, unless it was used for a lot of short trips on battery only.

That's the kicker they're not cheap for what they are, we will probably progress to full EV.... When they make something we like, next year or so should see some better products on the market?

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by jaydee

I watched on YT a car buyer/flipper in the UK bought a 2015 Range Rover hybrid. Paid 15k for it, spent a further 1500, sold for 20.
Because he was a dealer it had a warranty.
Came back 3 times for flat battery. Turned out a cell had dropped out in the hybrid battery pack and was therefore draining the car battery.
26k for a new battery pack, found a repairer who rebuilt, replaced all the cells for 6 grand.
In the end he lost money of course.
At the end of the day, if you're looking at buying a second hand car at let's say 7 years old, one is ICE, one is hybrid and one is fully electric, which will you buy with relative confidence will last 5 more years at least.

I’d have thought a dealer might be operating on healthier margins than ~10% for a flip - but maybe that’s reality.

You’d also imagine that a flaky battery might show up in diagnostics scans before the first recovery event.

[chich]

Our Volvo XC60 PHEV gets around 68-72km of range of full electric which is enough to cover our daily commutes. In the case we need more we just fire up the engine & you can drive as far as you like. Car currently achieves 1.4-1.6L/100km. Last full tank of fuel yielded 3350kms from 55L as the car mostly gets around with electricity. Combined power is 340kw/710Nm which has shamed a fair few at the lights.

As for the Sealion.. I had one for a day last week & I was looking for excuses not to drive it. The powertrain wasn't too bad, but the rest was just horrendous. Material quality, ergonomics, interior smelt of chemicals, infotainment useless, couldn't have a conversation driving at 100kph with the sunroof tilted.. all yours for 58k drive away. No thanks.

[chich]

Originally Posted by simon varley

to take an example with somewhat made up numbers.

a Ranger bi-turbo would have fuel costs of around $7 for a 50km drive.

a Ranger PHEV, if run 100% on battery, and you bought the charge at peak rate, would cost about $5 for the same 50km drive.

a Ranger PHEV, if run on 100% ICE would cost about $11 for the same drive.

that's quite a difference, but it's not real! Even if you really only drove that short a distance a day, you might find the ICE cuts in, so running 100% EV on a PHEV is pretty unreliable. IF you drive a longer distance, and deplete the battery, then the petrol engine costs more to run than the diesel.

I think the only way to truly know the costs, is to go and take a test drive. Drive your commute routes, with a number of different PHEV, and try and work out how much the engine runs, versus pure EV.

I'm not really convinced the runing costs are less than ICE, and I'm a fan

The dollars are one thing, but driveability is another. The torque fill offered by the electrical drivetrain would completely transform the driving experience, even when towing.

[Captain Stubing]

We just drove our Hyundai Santa Fe Hybrid from Brisbane to Sydney and back this week. At about 1950 km, it used 135 litres of fuel. The Hyundai isn't a PHEV, it charges the battery while you're driving about, stop/start is better for charging. The EV kicked in at 118 occasionally.
On the run down to Sydney it ran at about 7.1 l/100km, on the way back it ran at 7.9, though we had an extra passenger.
Is it worth the extra money? I don't think so. It's an 80k vehicle, but doesn't give back that much in fuel savings.

I have an ulterior motive in that I want to buy a Raptor, so I reckon fuel savings aren't that great on a hybrid. So bring on the Raptor and reckless spending!